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Paedobaptism

JM

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Hey folks,

I do not wish anyone ill will and the discussion will continue without me interrupting any dialogues or exchanges with the fella I mentioned. In fact, you have been warned so I'll remove the mention of it.

(I understand the term 'itchy ears' to mean the desire to hear something new and not necessarily in the context of the biblical verse. see Gill's commentary)
 
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I don't know him but I believe the NT charge of itchy ears comes from those who would accept doctrines outside of Christianity entirely and not simply trying to find the most error free form of Christianity itself. I do not fault people for trying to follow Christ in truth. We all know that there are many competing interpretations of the bible that claim to be the truth. A person with "itchy ears" would do something like accept the Koran as truth or universalism or Buddhism or Hinduism ...etc. Christian denomination skipping in this day and age is simply a sign of a Christian striving to be the best Christian he can be according to the truth. I see no fault in it. Go with God as you feel led by the scriptures.

I agree in essence, though at some point a person should settle down, for sanity sake. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity alone could drive a man insane. There are mysteries in God we will never penetrate in this lifetime, His eternal existence is another one, our finite minds cannot quite wrap around the truth of God existing from all eternity, having no beginning....everything we come to know by nature is temporal, having a cause, but this does not apply to God....and only Him, He is the exception to the "rule" of causality. Years ago my dad brought up something I had not considered, he said; "where does Heaven begin, and where does it end?" Of course I had no answer, and still have no answer, it is purely a mystery, and boggles my mind, because it points to God existing not only outside of time, but outside of space. Anyway, sorry for my ramblings and thank you for putting up with where I come up short, for putting up with my weaknesses and frailties be they mental, emotional, spiritual or any combination thereof.

Times like this, sometimes words from Rich Mullins songs come to mind, no we are not as strong as we think we are.
 
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Iosias

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I don't know him but I believe the NT charge of itchy ears comes from those who would accept doctrines outside of Christianity entirely and not simply trying to find the most error free form of Christianity itself. I do not fault people for trying to follow Christ in truth. We all know that there are many competing interpretations of the bible that claim to be the truth...Christian denomination skipping in this day and age is simply a sign of a Christian striving to be the best Christian he can be according to the truth. I see no fault in it. Go with God as you feel led by the scriptures.

:amen: If the charge of 'ichy ears' was made to every Christian who had changed their mind on matters of doctrine then every Christian would have ichy ears, including JM himself (formerly known as Street Preacher) who has moved from a dispensational historic premillennial position, to a reformed baptist and ammillennial view. I have no problem with Christians changing their mind on things, after all, is that not partly why we are all here...hoping to sharpen iron with iron? I make no apologies for trying to think things through for myself, rather than simply parrot John Gill. For the record, many Reformed Christians have become Catholic (cf. here) including Jason Stellman and Casey Chalk.
 
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Iosias

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In my opinion such a view falls outside of Christianity...

Is that opinion based upon what you've read by both authors on the issues concerned especially Wright's book on Justification? You've admited that you have not read Wright's response to Piper, so how do you know if Piper's assessment is right?

To claim that neither Dunn or Wright are Christians is absurd! :doh:
 
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JM

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He's bought into N. T. Wright and Dunn's NPP regarding justification. I only know this because I have been interacting w/ him in the SOT forums. In my opinion such a view falls outside of Christianity...

I do recall emails about Wright and Dunn...but don't worry, he's visiting SR so he'll become more orthodox. (for a little while)

Theological change is good but not if one widely swings from one end of the theological spectrum to the other. I personally have changed from a Calvinistic Baptist who was Dispensational to, get this, A Calvinistic Baptist who is covenantal. The change is massive. Dispensationalism is a false hermeneutic and it was a huge change theologically. I have NOT changed my views on baptism (as others have), on Calvinism (as others have), evolution (as others have), or become a member of multiple churches that clearly teach contradictory doctrine.

Unsteady is the right way to describe such a one.

jm
 
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JM

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AndOne

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Is that opinion based upon what you've read by both authors on the issues concerned especially Wright's book on Justification? You've admited that you have not read Wright's response to Piper, so how do you know if Piper's assessment is right?

To claim that neither Dunn or Wright are Christians is absurd! :doh:

I trust Piper on the issue. Piper never said that he believed Wright wasn't Christian. I did based upon what I know of his theology. It's nothing more than works based salvation and that is not Christian IMO.
 
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AndOne

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JM

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I was about to type out my notes on household baptism when I remembered Malone's work is online here.

Enjoy.

Quote:

The "Household Baptism" Texts

The question of household baptisms has long been used to support paedobaptism. These are the baptisms of the households of Cornelius, Lydia, the Philippian jailer, Stephanas, and Crispus.

Cornelius' Household (Acts 10:22; 11:12,14)
The account of Peter's preaching the gospel to Cornelius' household does not support infant baptism. Peter did preach the gospel to the whole household, and "all" the household was saved. How do we know that? Acts 10:44 and 11:15 state as much. The Holy Spirit fell upon them "all" and led them to repentance and faith (11:17,18). In fact, Peter explicitly stated in 10:47 that he baptized only those who "received the Holy Spirit as we did." This extension of Pentecost to the Gentiles clearly defined who was baptized. There is no mention of infants in the household, but only those who were "listening to the message" (10:44). Infants are capable of being regenerated by God (e.g., John the Baptist), and some may have been present. But they are not able to listen to the gospel and to "speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:46). Only the people who did this received baptism as a sign of the Abrahamic "promise" of the Spirit (Gal. 3:14). I conclude that the episode in Cornelius' household not only does not support infant baptism but is also a strong indicator for disciples'/confessors' baptism.

Lydia's Household (Acts 16:15)
The case of Lydia is inconclusive. Where was Lydia's husband? She may not have been married at all. Only women are mentioned at the riverbank. And it appears that she and her household were baptized at the river before she took Paul back to her house. This opens the probability that only women were in her household (every member of which was probably at the riverbank with her) and that she was an unmarried or widowed businesswoman. Even if this is not entirely accurate, there is no mention of infants or older children in her household. Even many paedobaptists hold this instance of household baptism as inconclusive for their position.

Philippian Jailer's Household (Acts 16:30-34)
The account of the Philippian jailer is probably the best possibility for including infants in the household baptism. All his household was baptized, but it is wrong to apply the promise of verse 31 to the "covenantal baptism" of the household based upon the jailer's faith. This is clearly demonstrated in the following verses, where it is recorded that Paul and Silas preached the gospel to "all who were in his house" (v. 32) and that "all his household" (v. 34) believed in God with him.

There is a translation problem with this text that needs to be examined. J. A. Alexander (Acts) agrees that v. 31 is simply a promise of salvation by faith to the jailer and his household upon belief by both. Verse 34 is more complicated. The NASB, NIV, KJV, Williams, and Beck translations indicate that the faith which was shared by his whole household was the basis for their rejoicing: "having believed in God with his whole household." However, the participle is masculine, singular and seems to describe the faith of the jailer: "He greatly rejoiced with his whole household, having believed [that is, the jailer] in God." The emphasis seems to be that the household rejoiced with him because he had found faith (RSV, NEB).

Even if the latter interpretation is correct, we still have the problem of infants rejoicing. It is true that infants can detect and participate in joy in a household. But can infants rejoice because they realize their father has found faith in God? This may well be the basis for the whole household's rejoicing. However, because of the context in preaching the Word to all in the house and because all were resultingly baptized, I believe their rejoicing was the same as the jailer's rejoicing–the evidence of a new-found faith and redemption expressed in the joy of the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Because they all heard the gospel, were baptized, and rejoiced, it is a legitimate conclusion that they all believed. He and his "whole household" were baptized because they all believed. Can infants hear the Word and respond in faith? No. If infants were present, for which there is no proof, the context denies that they were baptized. In fact, the context suggests that no infants were present. This case of household baptism actually lends support to confessors' baptism.

Crispus' Household (Acts 18:8)
A related case which supports the same conclusion concerns the household of Crispus. Here is a definite account concerning baptism in which the whole household, along with Crispus, believed in the Lord. It should also be noted that in the same verse, the other Corinthians who were baptized had first believed. It seems clear that the whole household first believed and then were baptized. This case also positively supports confessors' baptism within households.

Stephanas' Household (1 Cor. 1:16)
The last household baptism mentioned in the New Testament is that of Stephanas by Paul. The thrust of this text is that the baptized believers were in division and controversy over who baptized them. It seems they were capable of knowing who baptized them, thus excluding infants. Further, 1 Cor. 16:15 describes the "household of Stephanas" as having devoted themselves for ministry to the saints. Infants cannot self-consciously devote themselves in such a way. Yet even if this does not prohibit infants in the household of Stephanas, the most that can be said is that we do not know if infants were present. At best, this account is inconclusive for infant baptism.

In summary, the accounts of Lydia's and Stephanas' households are inconclusive, while the accounts of Cornelius', Crispus', and the jailer's households actually point to conscious belief and regeneration before baptism. Therefore, I conclude that the weight of the household baptisms leans toward confessors' baptism.
 
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JM

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From the same link above:

Physical Circumcision and Heart Circumcision

In Rom. 2:28,29, we find that circumcision was always meant to represent the inward work of the Spirit on the heart. According to the principles of typological interpretation, physical circumcision is the type and regeneration is the antitype or fulfillment. This was the definition of a true Jew, whether of Jewish or Gentile descent. The outward sign of circumcision was to symbolize that which God desired inwardly of the heart. But more than that, the reality of the symbol also had to be present in order for a person to be a true Jew or to receive all of God's covenant blessings.
This same truth is taught in Rom. 9:6-8, where Paul says that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel." This is another reference to the faithful remnant idea which began in the physical nation of Abraham's descendants and came to fruition in the New Covenant members or church. This is further explained in Rom. 4:12, where the promised "seed" of Abraham consists not of those of physical descent only, but those who are of the faith of their father Abraham. These, and these only, are his fulfilled "seed" (Rom. 4:23). It is those who are of faith, Jew and Gentile, who are the "seed" of Abraham. In all these Scriptures, the true Jews, or Abraham's "seed," in fulfillment of God's promise to him, are those who have the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, which is exhibited by faith in Christ.(end quote)
 
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Osage Bluestem

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JM said:
From the same link above:

Physical Circumcision and Heart Circumcision

In Rom. 2:28,29, we find that circumcision was always meant to represent the inward work of the Spirit on the heart. According to the principles of typological interpretation, physical circumcision is the type and regeneration is the antitype or fulfillment. This was the definition of a true Jew, whether of Jewish or Gentile descent. The outward sign of circumcision was to symbolize that which God desired inwardly of the heart. But more than that, the reality of the symbol also had to be present in order for a person to be a true Jew or to receive all of God's covenant blessings.
This same truth is taught in Rom. 9:6-8, where Paul says that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel." This is another reference to the faithful remnant idea which began in the physical nation of Abraham's descendants and came to fruition in the New Covenant members or church. This is further explained in Rom. 4:12, where the promised "seed" of Abraham consists not of those of physical descent only, but those who are of the faith of their father Abraham. These, and these only, are his fulfilled "seed" (Rom. 4:23). It is those who are of faith, Jew and Gentile, who are the "seed" of Abraham. In all these Scriptures, the true Jews, or Abraham's "seed," in fulfillment of God's promise to him, are those who have the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, which is exhibited by faith in Christ.(end quote)

God gives faith to people. Just as he had all circumcised as children of Israel He has all baptized as covenant children. I don't see the problem.
 
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Iosias

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Exactly; the visible church is composed of all those circumcised under the old covenant or baptised under the new, whilst the invisible church comprises all those who possess what the sign signified...faith. Under the OC the formula was circumcision + faith but under the NC the formula is baptism + faith. Under both infants are included.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Iosias said:
Exactly; the visible church is composed of all those circumcised under the old covenant or baptised under the new, whilst the invisible church comprises all those who possess what the sign signified...faith. Under the OC the formula was circumcision + faith but under the NC the formula is baptism + faith. Under both infants are included.

I agree. This is my understanding biblically and confessionally. My pastor explained it like this as well when I was having difficulties with baptism.
 
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JM

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That is the problem with the WCF, it breaks up the covenant of grace into outward administration (leading to theonomy) and inward call to believe. If the promise is to our children and they are not saved you have created, not only covenant of grace breakers, but a God who lied. This leads to baptismal regeneration on one hand and presumptive regeneration on the other.
"According to the confession of our churches, the seed of the covenant, by virtue of the promise of God, is to be considered regenerated and sanctified in Christ, until the contrary should become evident from their doctrine and conduct as they grow up" (Acts, Article 158).
Do you really assume your children are elect? :doh:

This is good:

“In Jesus’ Name, Amen”

what-about-the-children-the-covenant-ones1.jpg


Malone:

R.C. Sproul, Jr. ties the issue of infant baptism to family worship. He says that baptism increases the odds that our children will be saved (306). It gives them the right to pray in Jesus’ name, something unbaptized children cannot do since it is assumed that they are not saved. Baptism is a sign of faith. As far as we know, baptized children are in the faith, the church, the kingdom, and the covenant. Family worship brings them before the King as their King with a right to approach Him in prayer. Even though infant or household baptism is not an ironclad guarantee of salvation, we should assume that they are in the faith till they prove otherwise and are excommunicated as apostates. This is how God worked in His OT covenant arrangements and we should assume that He is the same today (307–309). The primary question is: how do we see our covenant children? If we see them as unsaved, then family worship will take on the character of evangelism; we must warn them of wrath and the need of repentance. However, if we see our children as young servants and recipients of grace, we come before God in family worship as a whole family. Our children will think of God as a loving Father rather than an angry judge. So, the goal of family worship becomes sanctification, not conversion. We must still preach the gospel and pray with them. Family worship makes us think more clearly about the issue of infant baptism (310).

Contra 15. Family worship is certainly an issue in all our homes, whether Baptist or paedobaptist. Some paedobaptists have caricatured the Baptist position, claiming that Baptists can only evangelize their unbaptized children as children of Satan, never teaching them to pray and depend upon God as a believer. Yet, on what basis did Noah and Job teach their uncircumcised children to worship God? On the contrary, family worship becomes the opportunity to call our children to pray to God as His creatures (who are totally dependent on Him for food, shelter, and salvation) and as the blessed children of Christian parents. We call them to believe that they are God’s saved children if they are depending upon Christ’s blood and righteousness alone. Therefore, we sing hymns together, read Scripture together, pray for requests together. Sproul’s appeal to God’s immutability as the basis for generational blessings is illogical and ill-conceived. God called Abraham to circumcise his descendants everlastingly (Gen. 17:13) yet ceased circumcision under the New Covenant fulfillment (Acts 15).

Overall, Sproul’s argument is from emotion, not revelation. It is no less a manipulation of parental affections to establish infant baptism than the manipulation of one’s emotions to walk an aisle all the way into the baptismal tank. Such arguments are not worthy to establish the validity of a sacrament. Christ institutes Sacraments through revelation, not through emotional appeals to debated issues. Nevertheless, Sproul’s call to the importance of family worship is well taken.*

*Vol. 2: The Reformed Baptist Theological Review Volume 2. 2005 (1) (157–158). Owensboro, KY: Reformed Baptist Theological Review.

“But What About Your Children?” – Fred Malone Answers R.C. Sproul Jr. | The Confessing Baptist
 
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