- Jun 26, 2004
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318 I do not see where in Gen . 14:14 that the 318 servants made a profession of faith? Do you have a Scripture on this?
Sorry Doc, my fault again for not being clear. I was making a point, that if circumcision was a sign and seal of the old covenant and it was given to 318 people without any personal faith on their part, we should be able to baptize in the same manner. Are we to assume all 318 had personal saving faith in God? We both know that is highly unlikely.
"And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him." (Gen 17:23)
"And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan." (Gen 14:14)
I do see where they were born in Abraham's household (compare Lydia Acts 16) and were blessed by God's promise to Abraham (Gen. 12:2-3; 14:19-29, etc.). Thank you for proving Lydia's case "again" as I stated above.
I know you thanked me for bringing up Lydia's case but you didn't supply a rebuttal to what was posted, just another interpretation of the passage, one that you found more favourable. We have plenty of concessions by infant baptists who wrote things like, "In no part of the New Testament is any other condition of membership in the Church prescribed than that contained in the answer of Philip to the eunuch who desired baptism. The Church, therefore, is in its essential nature a company of believers." Hodge (source linked above)
When it comes to the passage concerning Lydia you are assuming not just children but infants were baptized based on Lydia faith. When scripture is silence you really shouldn't assume but seek more, clear scripture to interpret the more difficult scripture. Instead of assuming, from silence, that infants were baptized you should consider passages like in the same epistle for a better undering, Acts 10:34-43; 16:14, 32. The patter is belief then baptism.
"Some allege that Lydias family members were baptized, not because they believed, but only because they were in Lydias family, while Lydia herself did believe (e.g., Barnes, 1972, p. 241). This allegation rests on the fact that Acts 16:14-15 denotes Lydias belief, but does not specifically reveal that her family believed. The Bible clearly teaches, however, that belief must precede baptism (see Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37; Romans 10:10-11; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:21), and that a sinner cannot be forgiven of sin based on the faith of another (Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 2:7; 4:5; 1 John 3:23)." (https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1384)
The Land :I agree with you that God promised Abraham "the" land. However, this land (which was actual land) was symbolic also, for Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker was God. He was looking for the consummation of the Kingdom (Heb. 11:8-16). And the writer of Hebrews makes it very clear that he sought it by faith (Heb. 11:6, 8; cf. Gen 15:6; Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6, etc.). And as Gal. 3:7 states, "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham" ... See You are all sons of God - Galatians 3:26-27 .
Can't argue with that brother. I would add that what was a physical type under the old covenant finds it fulfillment in the new with the whole epistles to the Hebrews declaring it. That is why the sign and seal are no longer physical. The administration of the covenant has changed. It is better, no, far better! Amen.
" For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:4-13)
We should note that in God's eternal covenant, Abraham had "the Gospel" preached unto him (Gal. 3:8) and applied the sign and seal of circumcision even to infants (Gen. 17:12; 21:4; Acts 7:8) as a faithful response to God's word. Abrahams' argument continued below.
Yes, the covenant of grace is found in every administration of any covenant to God's chosen people but as I have already shown above the sign and seal of circumcision was not, necessarily, of faith. The sign and the seal in the new most defiantly is.
It is fine if we allow the NT to explain baptism (though we have examples in the Old), if we properly interpret the NT in light of the continuing covenant in the Old. God is not beginning all over as if every other covenant was a failure of His planning.
I agree. It is the infant baptist who denies the progressive nature of revelation by dispensationally including children after the physical seed. To properly interpret the new covenant in light of the old, not through the old, you will soon arrive at credobaptism.
No, the first covenants failed because of sinful man. The eternal OCs looked forwarded to the eternal NC. The covenants are like a single tree that is growing thru-out redemptive history filling out more and more - trunk, branch, limbs, leaves. The sign and seal of the eternal covenant continues to be applied - even to infants - with baptism replacing circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). See Circumcision and baptism - Colossians 2:11 and Baptism of Disciples Alone
Brother, you are repeating your arguments, just with different words and a few new links. I try to use links as sources for the quotes I post but for the most part I type out most of what I post in these dialuges. I will not even attempt to give an answer to a ready made post or link.
You are claiming a physical seed is heir to a physical sign and seal under the new covenant when, "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8) The new covenant is different in that it is made with physical Israel's seed, Jesus Christ, and those who are promised salvation in Him.
You are claiming covenant promises to 'children of the flesh' and not proclaiming that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:29)
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