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Overcoming gridlock between EOs and OOs over Chalcedon's Formula

To EOs: Which do you consider more preferable? To OOs: May one say Christ is "in two natures"?

  • EO reply: Reunion w OOs, even if the debate on natures is unresolved, IF there is no real difference

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • OO reply: No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • OO reply: Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .

rakovsky

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Something cannot go from not being heretical to heretical
Severus wrote that Christ does not "have" two natures in his letter to Sergius. However, Christ did have two natures, ie. categories or collections of properties. Thus, his statement was mistaken, and the only question is whether his mistake was only semantic, or if it was heretical too.

If someone accepts that Jesus is God and Jesus was born of Mary, is it semantic-only or heretical if he denies the term Theotokos because he thinks the word "Theotokos" is Monophysite? I think that for a while that was Blessed Theodoret's objection.

The Copts sing in their liturgy, ntentionally referring to Christ, "Holy God.... who was crucified have mercy on us". This statement I think is fine when referring to Christ, just in the same sense that Theotokos can be OK. If someone objected to the Coptic phrase, then if the phrase was in fact OK, then would the objection to it be semantic or heretical too? I tend to think that it would be more semantically flawed as an objection.
 
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rakovsky

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no, if the Church affirms the statement with Orthodox understanding, it was not semantically mistaken (ie "of two Natures" and "in two Natures")

after Ephesus, yes.
Then by this logic, all OOs make "heresy" when they make a failed semantic argument against a correct statement that one group of bishops affirmed in a council that the others objected to per their mistaken semantics.

In any case, this would mean that their "heresy" was semantic and not substantive, since in substance they agree with us on all things outside use of the word "nature" itself, ie. outside of their mistakes about "nature" they affirm two essences, two categories, and everything else that the word "nature" in substance means.
 
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rakovsky

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yeah, it might be a lot of semantic stuff now, but theologically they would have to accept all of the Ecumenical Councils which would include the anathemas of Severus. that is theology and not semantics.
This goes back to whether one must accept every anathema of every Council, and I am very skeptical about this, since we don't affirm every canon. There have been some quite minute anathemas.
Nicea 2 says: "4. If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema."

Some of this stuff is hard to affirm.

if it were merely semantics, Chalcedon would not divide.
I think that the objection itself might be semantics, but the reason that they do it is more than semantics. I think that many of them are ideologically brain-locked into rejecting "in two natures", even though the phrase is fine and many other OOs can accept it. Religious people have an intense tendency to follow their bishops, traditions, and cultures. Egyptian traditional Christianity at this point is pretty unified around the Coptic OO tradition. Even the word Coptic itself, which just means Egyptian, is a proof of this. Once Dioscorus their patriarch made this decision that "in two natures" was wrong, and their leaders followed him, it became hard to get everyday Christians in Egypt to accept otherwise. It's not quite the same as if the Pope of Rome announced something as doctrine, but it's kind of like that mentally. And then after a few hundred years of this nonsense settling in, it becomes really enshrined, to the point where due to common sense OOs might affirm things that sound much like two natures post-incarnation on occasion, but then elsewhere intensely deny it. (see my discussion that I linked too earlier).

It's kind of like having an ideology that a half full bottle is not half empty or vice verse. Now and then little unintended common-sense admissions can slip into common speech.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The problem is that your argument that it is merely semantics is not found in the Fathers. St John of Damascus and St Maximos the Confessor are pretty clear that it is a substantial heresy that Severus falls in to, as do many Georgian saints. As do our hymns and prayers. So if the saints and councils and liturgical life affirm that it is heresy, then it is heresy

Those that have been named as heretics in person are not up for debate
 
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rakovsky

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The problem is that your argument that it is merely semantics is not found in the Fathers. St John of Damascus and St Maximos the Confessor are pretty clear that it is a substantial heresy that Severus falls in to, as do many Georgian saints. As do our hymns and prayers. So if the saints and councils and liturgical life affirm that it is heresy, then it is heresy

Those that have been named as heretics in person are not up for debate
Not sure each source you named distinguishes substantive vs semantic nature of their heresy. The combination of denying two natures and saying there is no mixing is I think by implication monophysite, ie Eutychean. But they are not explicitly Eutychean, ie they deny one divine nature only.

So its the same kind of mistake as Theodoret's denial of the word Theotokos. In both cases the deniers claim that the correct term is by implication heretical because of their semantic mistake. Appolinaris' saying Theotokos might be him using the term heretically, but the Councils didn't.

Tertullian, Theodore mopsuesta, and Origen have also been called heretics I think. But I think it should not be a requirement of everyone to formally state that in order to be orthodox.

I think people need to accept Theotokos and "in two natures", because they are faith and central decisions. But whether Dioscorus and Tertullian must be called by everyone to be heretics seems to be more secondary, like the Conciliar anathema I cited about disagreeing with "any" unwritten tradition.

There are major Eastern Orthodox clergy who disagree with some unwritten traditions and that Dioscorus is a heretic, so I doubt these things must be formally accepted by everyone. Even at Chalcedon an EO bishop who deposed Dioscorus said in the minutes that he was not a heretic but that he was wrong for deposing Flavian.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Not sure each source you named distinguishes substantive vs semantic nature of their heresy. The combination of denying two natures and saying there is no mixing is I think by implication monophysite, ie Eutychean. But they are not explicitly Eutychean, ie they deny one divine nature only.

So its the same kind of mistake as Theodoret's denial of the word Theotokos. In both cases the deniers claim that the correct term is by implication heretical because of their semantic mistake. Appolinaris' saying Theotokos might be him using the term heretically, but the Councils didn't.

Tertullian, Theodore mopsuesta, and Origen have also been called heretics I think. But I think it should not be a requirement of everyone to formally state that in order to be orthodox.

I think people need to accept Theotokos and "in two natures", because they are faith and central decisions. But whether Dioscorus and Tertullian must be called by everyone to be heretics seems to be more secondary, like the Conciliar anathema I cited about disagreeing with "any" unwritten tradition.

There are major Eastern Orthodox clergy who disagree with some unwritten traditions and that Dioscorus is a heretic, so I doubt these things must be formally accepted by everyone. Even at Chalcedon an EO bishop who deposed Dioscorus said in the minutes that he was not a heretic but that he was wrong for deposing Flavian.

The Church's saints, hymns, and councils call them heretics. When it comes to this, it is that simple and I don't care about modern opinions. Picking and choosing what parts of the councils are legit and what are not is Protestantism in an Orthodox package.

Thr councils are clear who is a heretic and who is not. In fact, Constantinople 2 clearly states that to defend Theodore or Origen is anathema
 
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rakovsky

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The Church's saints, hymns, and councils call them heretics. When it comes to this, it is that simple and I don't care about modern opinions. Picking and choosing what parts of the councils are legit and what are not is Protestantism in an Orthodox package.

Thr councils are clear who is a heretic and who is not. In fact, Constantinople 2 clearly states that to defend Theodore or Origen is anathema
We have Theodore Mopsuestia and Origen being written about positively by Orthodox today. One theologian did not see Theodore as a problem when understood in context. I suppose Origen made heresies, but he is still called a doctor of the church or some other positive title.

Personally, I am ok with calling Dioscorus and other OOs who reject "in two natures" "heretics", if we can call deniers of "Theotokos" heretics.

But I also care about reuniting, as Paul instructs us to avoid factionalism, and don't think that everyone must fully accept every anathema and canon of every council to be Orthodox, because it's just a fact that some Councils' canons touching were never formally accepted by every EO church. It's not a matter of being uncaring Protestant or legalistic Catholic about canons, that's just a fact. To give an example, baptism is both theological and ritual in nature, but the OCA and MP does not rebaptize Trinitarian heterodox, unlike what one of the canons accepted at a council says.

Strictly speaking, EO churches have accepted the main faith statements of each council and also openly affirmed each council, but also have not always accepted every canon or decision by every council. Applying that model to OOs, it looks to me like we would require them to accept the council and the main faith statement, but the anathemas would be secondary.

I think once OOs accept the phrase "in two natures", that will incline them to look at their history differently when it comes to Dioscorus and Severus. Looking at the fact that Dioscorus was openly considered a nonheretic by some who deposed him at Chalcedon, and since EO churches don't accept every decision by every council outside the main formulas, it is hard for me to require OOs to do so. Not every saint or anathematized person in every EO church is considered that way in every other EO church. I think Ivan the Terrible was never excommunicated by Greeks, although they didn't have a reason to.

Requiring OOs to anathematize Dioscorus and Severus because the anathema was a Council decision raises two questions:

1. Were Dioscorus and Severus "heretics"?

This goes back to the question of whether denial of correct terms for mistaken semantic reasons is inherently heresy.

Your answer appears to be that if a council decides something is heresy, then it means it's heresy.
If a council meets and cannot come to a unanimous decision on whether something is heresy, does that mean that the majority opinion about whether something is heresy is right? Ephesus II and Chalcedon were both councils that intended to be ecumenical and had majorities that took opposite opinions from each other.
It seems that not every decision by every council is necessarily fully correct, or else we wouldn't have divisions between EOs on Council decisions.

As I mentioned, at least one major EO bishop who supported Chalcedon's formula and who deposed Dioscorus but who didn't consider him a heretic, he debated this with the Roman delegation, which considered Dioscorus a heretic.

My guess is that it's a weird situation. Denial of in "two natures" is theologically mistaken, thereby heretical and implicitly in fact monophysite, but Dioscorus also rejected monophysitism.

So to 1. I would guess "Yes", but it's a conflicting situation.

2. Does every church need to accept every anathema of every council?
I think the answer is no. We know that there are Council canons that aren't accepted by every EO church, some are even rejected by EOs. We know that some EO churches don't openly accept all each others' saints or anathemas. And we know that there are Orthodox theologians and bishops who have considered Dioscorus and Severus to be non-heretics, including at least one who deposed Dioscorus at Chalcedon. And in practice it looks like churches don't impose every anathemas by the Ecumenical Councils. Can we really say that every person who denies any unwritten tradition is anathema per the explicit Council canon, for example?

These two major EO theologians and EO bishop disagree with the heresy charge:

"I support what Paul Verghese has said now. It is true that we have tended to take a position of conciliar fundamentalism (!). In the matter of tradition, continuity is essential…We should try to realize continuity. But I doubt if true continuity can be maintained on the level of persons. For example, take Leo and Severus. How do they stand in the communion of saints? Or take Origen. He was indeed in communion with many, but does not even a council proclaim him out of communion? I would suggest that all we can do is to consider individuals as models in particular situations." (Fr. Meyendorff, Metropolia, p. 34)

I would myself suggest that the anathemas served almost as caricatures, that is, as exaggerated presentations of the figures they ostensibly delineated which thus brought into relief elements of doctrine that all of us today would reject: e.g., the in fact inaccurate pictures of Leo as teaching “two Christs” and of Severus as effectively obliterating the humanity of Jesus. Surely, the final issue, the “bottom line,” must always be the actual faith that all of us, I believe, hold in common.

Bishop Alexander (Golitzin) of Toledo

This point may be illustrated by reference to what Chalcedonian Orthodox regard as the sixth ecumenical council, III Constantinople (681 A.D.), which proclaimed anathema to Dioscorus “hated of God” and to the “impious” Severus of Antioch. This council was faced by the heresies of monotheletism and monenergism, which held that there was but one will and one natural energy in Christ. As frequently the case when faced with a new challenge, orthodox churchmen on the one hand denounced these heresies as dangerous innovations, but on the other they tried to demonstrate that the new heresies were simply old, longcondemned heresies in disguise.

...
Hence, in the course of a long series of anathemas pronounced at the final session of the council, we find the names of Dioscorus (elsewhere described by the council as “hated by God”) and Severus (elsewhere characterized as “impious”). Clearly, by the time of III Constantinople popular opinion did associate these names with heretical positions condemned at earlier councils. And this tendency continues in later centuries. For example, hymnography for the Feast of the Seven Ecumenical Councils (July 16) can exhort the orthodox to “abhor” Dioscorus and Severus along with a multitude of other heretics.8 But these formulations – these “short-hand” notes from later times – in fact are very misleading.

...
Let us also consider the case of Severus. He clearly affirms the basic Christological truth that Jesus Christ is consubstantial with His Father in his divinity and consubstantial with us in his humanity. In other words, he does not fall into the heresy of Eutyches condemned at Chalcedon, which denied Christ’s consubstantiality with us and thus his full humanity. But Severus uses technical terms like hypostasis and physis in ways very different from the later formulations of Chalcedonian Orthodoxy. If read on his own terms, he is not guilty of either the heresy of monophysitism or the heresy of monotheletism as these have been condemned by the ecumenical councils.” His terminology may seem idiosyncratic,

Anathama: An Obstacle To Reunion?
Fr. John Erickson, former Dean of St. Vladimir's seminary

However, I agree with this criticism of Severus:
The “monophysite” position consisted essentially in a sort of “Cyrillian fundamentalism” which allowed no compromise at all. The Chalcedonian orthodox camp was making major terminological concessions and clarifications: the antichalcedonians were making none. Even the great Severus of Antioch, who saw the dangers of unabashed Monophysitism and understood the importance of affirming the full reality of Christ’s manhood, stopped short from accepting “two natures after the union”. Several individual leaders of Monophysitism eventually accepted Chalcedon, but they were disavowed by their flocks.
http://classicalchristianity.com/2012/05/19/are-the-non-chalcedonians-orthodox/


And I am aware that a canon of the 6th Council says this:
…[T]he Manichæans, and Valentinians and Marcionites and all of similar heresies must give certificates and anathematize each his own heresy, and also Nestorius, Eutyches, Dioscorus, Severus, and the other chiefs of such heresies, and those who think with them, and all the aforesaid heresies; and so they become partakers of the holy Communion. (Canon 95)
and the 7th council has a decree that says:
With the Fathers of this synod we confess that he who was incarnate of the immaculate Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary has two natures, recognizing him as perfect God and perfect man, as also the Council of Chalcedon has promulgated, expelling from the divine Atrium [αὐλῆς] as blasphemers, Eutyches and Dioscorus; and placing in the same category Severus, Peter and a number of others, blaspheming in various fashions.

So my conclusion is that "in two natures" and each main faith statement of the councils must be accepted, but not every canon or decision, ie. it's not necessary for OOs to also openly recognize him as a heretic. Since it looks to me like Severus was a heretic, semantic or not, by denying two natures, I don't know why it's necessary for EOs to lift their own anathemas. Further, once OOs do recognize that "in two natures" and "has two natures" are perfectly fine statements, it points them to reevaluating the writings of Dioscorus and Severus.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Sorry but Severus is either a heretic or not. He cannot be both a heretic for the EO and a saint for the Orientals, and try to use that for Union.

They must anathematized him to come back to the Church. The council's proclamations of faith are from the Spirit and there is no wiggle room.

I am gonna have to bow out if we think we can just pick which parts of a Ecumenical Council we think to listen to.
 
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rakovsky

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I am gonna have to bow out if we think we can just pick which parts of a Ecumenical Council we think to listen to.
I value your opinions, but don't know how I myself would reasonably argue against the reality that some EO churches reject certain canons, like the ones on rebaptism of Trinitarian heterodox.

If Orthodox have reunion, I think it should be done in a correct Orthodox way.
 
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rakovsky

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And you are implying that modern scholars know more about the Truth than the saints.
In that case it is not just modern scholars but EOs at Chalcedon themselves who deposed Dioscorus who did not consider him a heretic.

Anyway, I am not arguing that the saints are even wrong to call Severus a heretic, only questioning whether explicitly calling him that must be a requirement to be accepted as a member of Orthodoxy, since some figures accepted as said members of Orthodoxy have disagreed on that then and now.
 
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rakovsky

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It's kind of ironic how much Dioscorus and Severus share with "dio-physite" and "sever".

"The Vedic Agni, the Latin ignis, together with the human being - especially collective humanity - are the Dioscuri, the divine twins par excellence".
http://www.michaelyork.co.uk/Domus/CV/confpapers/cp-20.html

Dioscorus' accusation was that Chalcedon severs Jesus into two persons.
 
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Sirlanky

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I think that the fundamental difference between me at you Matt is that I believe a council can error in declaring anathemas. And from what I have read over the years as an oriental orthodox Christian, many Eastern Orthodox also do not consider councils to be infallible.

For me personally (speaking personally not for my church) for the sake of Church unity I would remove St Severus and St dioscorus from our Church roster of saints. But it's not going to happen. For Copts, it would be a scandal to do such a thing. It's just as much a nationalistic thing as it is a religious one. As an Anglo Saxon in the Coptic church I have a unique look at things.

It's why I now believe the schism won't end in this life. Many Eastern Orthodox insist we must accept Chalcedon and anathematise our fathers to come back to the chalice, and many oriental orthodox require you folks to reject Chalcedon and the tome of St Leo. Both situations will never happen.
 
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rakovsky

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I think that the fundamental difference between me at you Matt is that I believe a council can error in declaring anathemas. And from what I have read over the years as an oriental orthodox Christian, many Eastern Orthodox also do not consider councils to be infallible.

For me personally (speaking personally not for my church) for the sake of Church unity I would remove St Severus and St dioscorus from our Church roster of saints. But it's not going to happen. For Copts, it would be a scandal to do such a thing. It's just as much a nationalistic thing as it is a religious one. As an Anglo Saxon in the Coptic church I have a unique look at things.

It's why I now believe the schism won't end in this life. Many Eastern Orthodox insist we must accept Chalcedon and anathematise our fathers to come back to the chalice, and many oriental orthodox require you folks to reject Chalcedon and the tome of St Leo. Both situations will never happen.
Did you ever think of writing an essay on how "in two natures" is grammatically acceptable, noting for example Cyril's use of it and the Joint Commission's endorsement of it, and then sending it to other OO clergy and bishops?
 
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Sirlanky

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Mate 'in two natures' isn't just grammatically correct, it's completely and utterly orthodox. To refuse to acknowledge 'in two natures' as orthodox is a serious offence, and if one believes in two natures is heresy, they themselves are heterodox. I myself am miaphysite, as that's how the unity was explained to me, and it makes sense to me. But I guess I could also be called a diaphysite.

And yes once I have more free time I will write an essay on why I believe the Oriental Orthodox Church should accept the tome of st leo
 
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ArmyMatt

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I value your opinions, but don't know how I myself would reasonably argue against the reality that some EO churches reject certain canons, like the ones on rebaptism of Trinitarian heterodox.

If Orthodox have reunion, I think it should be done in a correct Orthodox way.

right, which would mean accepting all of what our saints and hymns say, which includes the anathemas of Severus, Dioscorus, etc.

In that case it is not just modern scholars but EOs at Chalcedon themselves who deposed Dioscorus who did not consider him a heretic.

doesn't matter since a later council did condemn him. councils can make the call to anathematize someone even after they died.

Anyway, I am not arguing that the saints are even wrong to call Severus a heretic, only questioning whether explicitly calling him that must be a requirement to be accepted as a member of Orthodoxy, since some figures accepted as said members of Orthodoxy have disagreed on that then and now.

that doesn't matter, no saint accepts him as anything other than a heretic. and the subsequent councils all affirm that he is a heretic. modern scholarship is not an authority over our councils and saints.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think that the fundamental difference between me at you Matt is that I believe a council can error in declaring anathemas. And from what I have read over the years as an oriental orthodox Christian, many Eastern Orthodox also do not consider councils to be infallible.

that doesn't matter. what matters is what we pray and what the councils say, because that is the Holy Spirit speaking through His Church.

For me personally (speaking personally not for my church) for the sake of Church unity I would remove St Severus and St dioscorus from our Church roster of saints. But it's not going to happen. For Copts, it would be a scandal to do such a thing. It's just as much a nationalistic thing as it is a religious one. As an Anglo Saxon in the Coptic church I have a unique look at things.

It's why I now believe the schism won't end in this life. Many Eastern Orthodox insist we must accept Chalcedon and anathematise our fathers to come back to the chalice, and many oriental orthodox require you folks to reject Chalcedon and the tome of St Leo. Both situations will never happen.

I know, and thank God for that. in those cases, at least both parties are putting the Truth they know in Christ first. watering down what the Faith claims to be true is NOT how we should come to union. if we remain divided, then we remain divided. the Church is still one, and it does not matter how "close" those outside are. they are outside and are anathema.
 
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dzheremi

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And all of this is a moot point.

Accept the Tome of Leo 'for the sake of union'...God help us...thank God neither are churches are churches of individual opinions of some people on the internet.

As the saying goes, you never tear down a fence until you learn why it was put up. I believe our (Oriental Orthodox) fathers, the Chalcedonians believe theirs, and if there's movement on this front I'm sure it won't be because of this thread or a million threads.

I have stated before on this website that I would call us (OO and EO) the two closest churches that are not in communion, and I think that's the most honest and fair description I am comfortable with. Anything else gives false hope or otherwise false impressions to somebody. We're not the same. The Joint Commission cannot simply declare us to the be the same and think the schism is therefore over. If it could, the fact that they have pretty much done that (to the point of recommending that communion be restored already) would be enough, but it's not. The fact of the matter is that there is a lot more to being OO than rejecting Chalcedon/the Tome (since we've had some 1600 years since then, all of which we could have become Chalcedonians, if it were decided by the bulk that this was somehow the right thing to do, but instead we developed in our own way), just as I'm sure there's a lot more to being EO than accepting Chalcedon/the Tome (hence the EO and the RCC developed differently, despite both being Chalcedonian).

People want to either oversimplify or overcomplicate things that are either way probably just best left alone. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but in reality this is more or less a nonstarter for both sides. There may be agreements made in very limited contexts (e.g., for the marriages of Coptic-Greek couples in the patriarchal territory of Alexandria proper), or even more broad contexts (e.g., the agreements between the Antiochian Greeks and the Syriac Orthodox), but we shouldn't mistake these for being more than they are. They're not reunion. There won't be reunion so long as one side won't just give up their traditions, which I'm sure neither will.
 
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