Outline of Lutheran Liturgy?

[Filia Mariae]

A Lutheran co-worker of mine keeps insisting that the Mass and a Lutheran liturgy are "exactly the same." I have been to a Lutheran liturgy, but it was about 10 years ago and I don't remember much (I was in high school).
I keep attempting to explain to her that while the Lutheran liturgy resembles the Mass, the Catholic belief of what occurs at Mass is vastly different than the Lutheran understanding of their liturgy and the idea of the re-presentation of Christ's once and for all sacrifice is not something that sits well with most Lutherans, but she doesn't seem to get it.

Can someone give me a basic synopsis of what occurs during the Lutheran liturgy? She's ELCA, I don't know if the liturgy looks different in different synods. If someone who is familiar with the Mass could explain practical differences, that would be great.

Thank you!

Pax Christi

 

[KagomeShuko]

I'm not really familiar with the Mass. I've never even attended a Catholic service or watched one on television. I can see where she her point and I can see yours. I have, however, been in a Catholic church. I've been able to pick up the books and the liturgy LOOKS like our does. We can easily recognize the words to almost everything.

I don't currently have a hymnal or bulletin with me, so this is a really REALLY rough outline of things (and may be a bit out of order). I'll get you the perfectly correct order unless sombody gets it to you before me.

Welcome and Announcements
Confession and Forgiveness/Absolution
Opening Hymn
Kyrie
Salutation
First Lesson
Psalm
Second Lesson
Gospel
Option Children's Sermon
Optional Sermon Hymn
Sermon
Hymn of the Day
Sharing of the Peace
Offering
Offertory
Offertory Prayer
Apostles' or Nicene Creed
Great Thanksgiving
Eucharist Prayer
Lord's Prayer
Lamb of God (Agnus Dei)
Communion
Communion Hymn/Music
Post Communion Blessing/Prayer
Post Communion Canticle
Closing Hymn
Dismissal

The words are going to look the same to her. . .

She'll see things like, "This is the feast, the victory of our God, alleluia. Worthy is Christ, the lamb who was slain, whose blood set us free to be people of God. . ."

And things like before and after the Gospel of "Glory to you, oh Lord" and "Praise to you, oh Christ."

So, to her, the service is going to look the same.

I don't think she gets that Catholics have a bit of a different believe on things with the eucharist and such.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[AngelusSax]

EDIT:

Forget it. Kagome posted before me and much better.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

EDIT:

Forget it. Kagome posted before me and much better.

RATS!!! And I was going to nip at you on the empty cross thing! No way is the empty cross preferred to the crucifix! Maybe by some Lutherans but surely, surely not by all.

Unfortunately, Filia Mariae, on any given Sunday the Liturgy can vary from church to church. It shouldn't but "worship teams" seem to think "man-handling" the liturgy is their job. Whatever works to fill the pews....

I am former Roman Catholic familiar with both the Tridentine and Novus Ordo services. On balance I would say the Liturgy of the Novus Ordo is similar the the liturgy celebrated by most Lutherans...there are some differences so you would be correct in saying they are not EXACTLY the same. (I mean, surely the RCC hasn't started doing children's sermons yet, have they? ) The Eucharistic prayers are different. The RCC retains the "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, ...." before Communion...which I really like. There are little differences all over. And like I said earlier, strict adherence to the liturgy is becoming less and less a sure thing in the Lutheran churches.

So what...is your friend trying to convert you or something?

 

[AngelusSax]

RATS!!! And I was going to nip at you on the empty cross thing! No way is the empty cross preferred to the crucifix! Maybe by some Lutherans but surely, surely not by all.

Well... I like both equally, but find the empty Cross more appropriate for Easter/Pentecost seasons, personally...

 

[KagomeShuko]

Well... I like both equally, but find the empty Cross more appropriate for Easter/Pentecost seasons, personally...

I too, find I like both crucifixes and triumphant crosses. I think I like triumphant crosses a bit more than crucifixes (sorry Rose!), but not in any huge way. It's more of " I just do" and while the crucifix is VERY important, it's not where the story ends type of thing . . .but I still love them BOTH.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[revjpw]

A Lutheran co-worker of mine keeps insisting that the Mass and a Lutheran liturgy are "exactly the same." I have been to a Lutheran liturgy, but it was about 10 years ago and I don't remember much (I was in high school).
I keep attempting to explain to her that while the Lutheran liturgy resembles the Mass, the Catholic belief of what occurs at Mass is vastly different than the Lutheran understanding of their liturgy and the idea of the re-presentation of Christ's once and for all sacrifice is not something that sits well with most Lutherans, but she doesn't seem to get it.

Can someone give me a basic synopsis of what occurs during the Lutheran liturgy? She's ELCA, I don't know if the liturgy looks different in different synods. If someone who is familiar with the Mass could explain practical differences, that would be great.

Thank you!

Pax Christi

There are a number of similarities. The places where parts of the service fall is very similar. In one of the regular Lutheran liturgies (the one that is actually closest to the traditional Liturgy of the Church catholic) the Gloria in Excelsis is sung the same way as in the traditional RC Mass, as well as the Agnus Dei, the Sanctus, and the chant tones for the Proper Preface ("It is truly good right and salutary..." although the wording may be slightly different).

In the Eucharistic service, the Words of Institution are prayed in the RC Mass because of the sacrificial nature of their administration of the Sacrament. Lutherans do not pray the verba but rather recite it as Christ did to His disciples. Lutherans maintain a Sacramental nature to the Eucharistic service.

When we recite the Lord's Prayer, we include the liturgical ending as part of the prayer, where the RC Mass ends at "...but deliver us from evil." The Mass continues at that point with the priest praying "Deliver us Lord from every evil..." and then the congregation concludes with the liturgical ending, "For th Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory are Yours, now and forever."

There are enough similarities so that a Roman Catholic would be able to follow the Divine Service easily, and even be able to sing parts of the liturgy.


...oh, and I ,too, was raised Roman Catholic and I remember children's homilies... 30 some years ago.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Well... I like both equally, but find the empty Cross more appropriate for Easter/Pentecost seasons, personally...

I too, find I like both crucifixes and triumphant crosses. I think I like triumphant crosses a bit more than crucifixes (sorry Rose!), but not in any huge way. It's more of " I just do" and while the crucifix is VERY important, it's not where the story ends type of thing . . .but I still love them BOTH.

Personal preference is still permitted.

Rome says we must, the Reformed say we mustn't we say neither and do both...

 

[ByzantineDixie]

...oh, and I ,too, was raised Roman Catholic and I remember children's homilies... 30 some years ago.

Wow...are you serious? Never seen such a thing either growing up RCC or going periodically to my parents or my brother's churches. We used to go to Mass everyday when I was in grade school. I imagine the homilies on those day may have been geared for children since we made up the bulk of the attendees but unfortunately...I don't remember...probably wasn't paying attention. Got caught on more than one occasion by Sister Margaret Joseph for trading holy cards during the homily. :o

 

[Qoheleth]

Can someone give me a basic synopsis of what occurs during the Lutheran liturgy?

The link below is an excellent beginning in understanding the Ordo of the Lutheran Mass. Look to the botton left. It is in PDF. format though.


http://www.ulcmn.org/Bookstore/aboutourliturgysample.PDF


Q

 

[SemStudent08]

Here is another resource on Lutheran Liturgy

http://www.elca.org/dcm/worship/worship/sacraments/umg.html

Its not so much the Order of Liturgy, but an explanation of some of the Lutheran understandings behind them (with plenty of footnotes).

 

[revjpw]

Wow...are you serious? Never seen such a thing either growing up RCC or going periodically to my parents or my brother's churches. We used to go to Mass everyday when I was in grade school. I imagine the homilies on those day may have been geared for children since we made up the bulk of the attendees but unfortunately...I don't remember...probably wasn't paying attention. Got caught on more than one occasion by Sister Margaret Joseph for trading holy cards during the homily. :o

I always looked forward to those times because we went to a rather large church and we got to sit in the chancel. This was probably where the seed was planted that led to my becoming a Pastor.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I always looked forward to those times because we went to a rather large church and we got to sit in the chancel. This was probably where the seed was planted that led to my becoming a Pastor.

That's cool. I had dreams of being a nun...but I fell away before that could happen. (Probably because I was trading holy cards instead of listening to the homily! )

 

[SPALATIN]

Wow...are you serious? Never seen such a thing either growing up RCC or going periodically to my parents or my brother's churches. We used to go to Mass everyday when I was in grade school. I imagine the homilies on those day may have been geared for children since we made up the bulk of the attendees but unfortunately...I don't remember...probably wasn't paying attention. Got caught on more than one occasion by Sister Margaret Joseph for trading holy cards during the homily. :o

What can you get for a couple of Madonna's and a St. Peter?

 

[Filia Mariae]

Unfortunately, Filia Mariae, on any given Sunday the Liturgy can vary from church to church. It shouldn't but "worship teams" seem to think "man-handling" the liturgy is their job. Whatever works to fill the pews....

I am former Roman Catholic familiar with both the Tridentine and Novus Ordo services. On balance I would say the Liturgy of the Novus Ordo is similar the the liturgy celebrated by most Lutherans...there are some differences so you would be correct in saying they are not EXACTLY the same. (I mean, surely the RCC hasn't started doing children's sermons yet, have they? )

I've never seen one, thank God.

The Eucharistic prayers are different. The RCC retains the "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, ...." before Communion...which I really like. There are little differences all over. And like I said earlier, strict adherence to the liturgy is becoming less and less a sure thing in the Lutheran churches.

That was the feeling I have gotten.

So what...is your friend trying to convert you or something?

No, she knows I'm a lost cause, but she is continually telling me that the Lutheran church is just the same as the Catholic Church, "without all those strict rules." I have abondoned the attempt to try to explain differences in views of Scripture, human nature, and salvation because she doesn't really care about that, she cares more about her regular interaction with pastor and stuff, not really theology. Although she is on a rampage to get all disgruntled cafeteria Catholics to become Lutherans. I just keep praying that God deliver the Lutheran church from the disgruntled Catholics , because they aren't the most delightful bunch, but I digress.

Anyway, thanks for your help guys.

 

[CrossWiseMag]

Regarding the "empty cross" vs. "crucifix" thing:

I've heard people say they think the "empty cross" is a better representation for Easter, etc., because the empty cross shows that Jesus didn't stay on the cross.

Well, think about it a little bit. All the "empty cross" represents is that Jesus' lifeless body was taken down! Jesus was still dead when he came off the cross, after all. If you want to represent Easter, it's an empty TOMB you should want -- not an empty cross. This explanation rings especially hollow among Evangelicals, who seem to have made it up without thinking through the ramifications of what they're saying. Let's face it--most folks just don't like the crucifix because it has a bloody body on it.

Oh, and while I'm ranting, as Todd Wilken has pointed out -- why do these same people hold Christmas programs with baby Jesus in the manger. He ain't in THERE anymore, either!

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Regarding the "empty cross" vs. "crucifix" thing:

I've heard people say they think the "empty cross" is a better representation for Easter, etc., because the empty cross shows that Jesus didn't stay on the cross.

Well, think about it a little bit. All the "empty cross" represents is that Jesus' lifeless body was taken down! Jesus was still dead when he came off the cross, after all. If you want to represent Easter, it's an empty TOMB you should want -- not an empty cross. This explanation rings especially hollow among Evangelicals, who seem to have made it up without thinking through the ramifications of what they're saying. Let's face it--most folks just don't like the crucifix because it has a bloody body on it.

Oh, and while I'm ranting, as Todd Wilken has pointed out -- why do these same people hold Christmas programs with baby Jesus in the manger. He ain't in THERE anymore, either!

CWM...great stuff here as usual. Babies are cute, bloody bodies make us feel bad. The contrast is quite revealing.

 

[KagomeShuko]

on any given Sunday the Liturgy can vary from church to church. It shouldn't but "worship teams" seem to think "man-handling" the liturgy is their job. Whatever works to fill the pews....

Rose, I'd have to say that I was even a little surprised when I visited your church. The little ELCA church I attend is VERY liturgical. . .so much so that even when we had youth services when I was a youth, we followed the liturgy and the youth ran the service with the songs that fit that THEY liked for opening hymn/hymn of the day, etc.

When I was a youth, we were taught what each part of the service meant when it came to designing youth services, so, while I always liked the liturgy, having that knowledge also makes it very special.

There is rarely a Sunday we don't follow the LBW or the Hymnal Supplement 1991 with Marty Haugin's liturgy.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[revjpw]

Let's face it--most folks just don't like the crucifix because it has a bloody body on it.

Personally, I don't see a "bloody body" on the crucifix. I see the single greatest act of love ever committed in all creation. I see that moment in history where the full glory of God is truly revealed to us.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Rose, I'd have to say that I was even a little surprised when I visited your church. The little ELCA church I attend is VERY liturgical. . .

The problem is my church is not unique in the LCMS. I do a fair amount of traveling. We have moved around a bit. I get all kinds of opportunity to see what other churches are doing. And don't forget I was enrolled until recently in an extension program run out of Concordia Wisconsin so I also know what the synod schools are teaching. Lack of faithfulness to the Liturgy is just one of many problems.

Even before this discussion I would have admitted the ELCA (and I believe I have admitted this elsewhere) on balance strays less from the liturgy but they have their own set of faithfulness problems...which for the sake of civility and respect I will not enumerate here.

Watching the protestantization of Lutheranism is like watching your house burn down...as you watch it burn you think about all of the good memories, all the things burning up that help you get through life and where in the heck you will go.