Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

savedbygrace57 · Nov 16, 2007

vekarppe said:
Of course He calls, through the gospel. Otherwise there could not be those "who do not obey the gospel" (2 Thess 1:8, cf. Romans 10:16).

Just because you do not obey the gospel does not mean you were called to obey it..only the elect are called to obey they the gospel and they do !! 1pet 1
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The non elect dont believe the record that God has given of his son...which makes God a liar

1 jn 5

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Just like you , you dont believe the true gospel but humanism..

Van · Nov 16, 2007

No verse says or suggests in the slightest that election occurs before a person responds to the call of the gospel of Christ. Certainly not in Ephesians 1, which says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It does not say, God chose us as foreseen individuals to be in Him before the foundation of the world. That view is just another fiction.

1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes our individual election until after we have lived without mercy.

In verse after verse, many are called, few are chosen.
The call of the gospel comes before our response to the gospel, and God credits our faith as righteousness after we respond to the gospel. Then, according to John 1:12-13 we are given the right to become children of God, born by the will of God.

The inner call is a fiction and is not found in scripture.
In this thread, our post salvation holy calling has been suggested as the so called "inner call." But Romans 8:30 refers to our holy calling, not our call to salvation. That is addressed in Romans 8:28.

pehkay · Nov 16, 2007

We were chosen, selected, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

In Gal 1:15 Paul says that God set him apart from his mothers womb. The Greek indicates being designated or distinguished for a specific purpose. This setting apart took place before Paul was born.

The main point here is that according to His selection we were chosen by God in eternity, before the foundation of the world. This means that we were chosen before the beginning of time, in eternity. However, there was the need for us, at a definite time, to be separated from our mothers womb. To be set apart from our mothers womb is related to the accomplishment in time of the selection God made in eternity. It was necessary for us to be born at a certain time.

We were selected from before the foundation of the world. Then God waited until the time was right for us to be born. Hence, regarding our birth God had His timing. We all were selected in eternity when Paul was selected; however, we were set apart from our mothers womb at different times. Therefore, to be set apart from our mothers womb is to have Gods selection carried out in a practical way.

I guess is at the moment of our salvation that we know practically, experientially, realistically God's selection is carried out in us ...

Van · Nov 16, 2007

Ephesians 1:4 does not say we were chosen as foreseen individuals to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. Such an inferrence is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Yes, Paul was set apart during his physical lifetime, not as a foreseen individual before creationl. So Galatians supports that God chooses individuals during their physical lifetime for various purposes. Jacob He loved but Esau He hated. But these choices were not unto salvation.

The inner call is a fiction, and no one was chosen as an individual to salvation before they lived without mercy.
Election unto salvation occurs during our physical lifetime, not before creation, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Philothei · Nov 16, 2007

savedbygrace57 said:
Sorry, those verses dont even apply to you..

I am so sorry I forgot you were the god almighty....

and you already "know" the elect.... since you have the mind of God and there is no mystery of cource you "know" the elect....lol....
that gave me a good laugh thanks...

And for those like you who want to "predestine" everyone else ...here is what the Apostle says and in context:

1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

6Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
8Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kingsand that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! 9For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. 18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?

Lord have mercy if we treat each other with disrespect....

God bless,
Philothei

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

pehkay said:
We were chosen, selected, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

In Gal 1:15 Paul says that God set him apart from his mothers womb. The Greek indicates being designated or distinguished for a specific purpose. This setting apart took place before Paul was born.

The main point here is that according to His selection we were chosen by God in eternity, before the foundation of the world. This means that we were chosen before the beginning of time, in eternity. However, there was the need for us, at a definite time, to be separated from our mothers womb. To be set apart from our mothers womb is related to the accomplishment in time of the selection God made in eternity. It was necessary for us to be born at a certain time.

We were selected from before the foundation of the world. Then God waited until the time was right for us to be born. Hence, regarding our birth God had His timing. We all were selected in eternity when Paul was selected; however, we were set apart from our mothers womb at different times. Therefore, to be set apart from our mothers womb is to have Gods selection carried out in a practical way.

I guess is at the moment of our salvation that we know practically, experientially, realistically God's selection is carried out in us ...

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

Van said:
Quote:
No verse says or suggests in the slightest that election occurs before a person responds to the call of the gospel of Christ. Certainly not in Ephesians 1, which says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It does not say, God chose us as foreseen individuals to be in Him before the foundation of the world. That view is just another fiction.

the verse is cear that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth in Christ , forseen individuals is not in the text , neither is preselected elect etc etc.

Quote:
1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes our individual election until after we have lived without mercy.

skewed renderings abound .

1 Peter 2:9-10 presnts the truth of a community now together chosen before the foundation of the world.

Quote:
In verse after verse, many are called, few are chosen.

yes this would be the general call not always effective , the inner call always is.

Quote:
The call of the gospel comes before our response to the gospel,

it obviously does. who can respond to no call?

Quote:

and God credits our faith as righteousness

our faith is merely instrumental , God credits the only righteousness we have , Christ's , through our faith.

Quote:
after we respond to the gospel.

sure , only hypers deny it. and only van thinks election comes AFTER CALLING!

Quote:
Then, according to John 1:12-13 we are given the right to become children of God, born by the will of God.

no , you are bringing in your own interpretation of the order of salvation here . John merely states that we are given the right to become children of God ... who ? those who believe!

Quote:
The inner call is a fiction

mantra

Quote:
and is not found in scripture.

make your calling and election sure ........ why would anyone need to remember if they heard the Gospel ... obviously Peter has the inner call , the call to the elect in mind.

Quote:
In this thread, our post salvation holy calling has been suggested as the so called "inner call." But Romans 8:30 refers to our holy calling, not our call to salvation. That is addressed in Romans 8:28.

Romans 8 28--- is directly to do with salvation , denying this merely shows what lengths some will go to to supress a whole bunch of evidences , not least the work of renound theologians.

vekarppe · Nov 17, 2007

savedbygrace57 said:
Just because you do not obey the gospel does not mean you were called to obey it..only the elect are called to obey they the gospel and they do !!

One cannot refuse someting that is not offered to him.

savedbygrace57 said:
Just like you , you dont believe the true gospel but humanism..

If you do not stop personal insulting, you can be sure I will report to the moderators.

Van · Nov 17, 2007

Ephesians 1:4 is clear, He chose us in Him. But the Calvinist inferrence skewers the clarity and confuses the message. In the passage, Paul is presenting some of the blessings of being spiritually in Christ as a born again believer. And the first blessing Paul mentions is that we who have received the reconciliation, share in Christ's election before creation. Since God chose the Word to be His lamb, His Redeemer, He in effect chose everyone who has been redeemed, thus He chose us in Him....

1 Peter 2:9-10 is clear, everyone God has chosen to be to be His people first lived without mercy. Therefore, election unto salvation occurs during our physcial lifetime, after we have lived without mercy. Thus this passage precludes the Calvinist interpretation of Ephesians 1:4.

The call of the gospel occurs before God chooses those who respond with faith that God credits as righteousness. The Calvinist false doctrine puts the cart before the horse, and says few are chosen, but then God calls many to create the illustion that salvation is attainable, but it is not because God has foreordained who is able to respond to the gospel call. Backwards, folks, completely backwards.

There is no verse or passage that suggests in the slightest or faith is "instrumental." Note the introduction of "special" words, with secret meanings. Scripture, on the other hand simply says our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:2. So the sequence is clear, God reveals the opportunity for salvation with the Gospel, some respond and thus gain access to God's saving grace. Then God credits the faith of those who respond fully rather than in a rootless manner or half-heartedly because they still also treasure the things of this world, like the rich young ruler, and spiritually places them in Christ where they are born spiritually as a child of God by the will of God.

But thanks for agreeing that Romans 8:28 deals with the response to the external call of the gospel, it makes my case.

The inner call is a fiction.

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

When John says that God gives the right to become the children of God to all who receive Christ (John 1:12), he goes on to say that those who do receive Christ “were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” In other words, it is necessary to receive Christ in order to become a child of God, but the birth that brings one into the family of God is not possible by the will of man.

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

Van said:
Ephesians 1:4 is clear, He chose us in Him. But the Calvinist inferrence skewers the clarity and confuses the message. In the passage, Paul is presenting some of the blessings of being spiritually in Christ as a born again believer. And the first blessing Paul mentions is that we who have received the reconciliation, share in Christ's election before creation. Since God chose the Word to be His lamb, His Redeemer, He in effect chose everyone who has been redeemed, thus He chose us in Him....

1 Peter 2:9-10 is clear, everyone God has chosen to be to be His people first lived without mercy. Therefore, election unto salvation occurs during our physcial lifetime, after we have lived without mercy. Thus this passage precludes the Calvinist interpretation of Ephesians 1:4.

The call of the gospel occurs before God chooses those who respond with faith that God credits as righteousness. The Calvinist false doctrine puts the cart before the horse, and says few are chosen, but then God calls many to create the illustion that salvation is attainable, but it is not because God has foreordained who is able to respond to the gospel call. Backwards, folks, completely backwards.

There is no verse or passage that suggests in the slightest or faith is "instrumental." Note the introduction of "special" words, with secret meanings. Scripture, on the other hand simply says our faith in Christ provides our access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:2. So the sequence is clear, God reveals the opportunity for salvation with the Gospel, some respond and thus gain access to God's saving grace. Then God credits the faith of those who respond fully rather than in a rootless manner or half-heartedly because they still also treasure the things of this world, like the rich young ruler, and spiritually places them in Christ where they are born spiritually as a child of God by the will of God.

But thanks for agreeing that Romans 8:28 deals with the response to the external call of the gospel, it makes my case.

The inner call is a fiction.

dealt with

#67

name three theologians who accept election after calling !

name 1 theologian who accepts election unto salvation in our lifetime ...............

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

John Calvin.

"The expression of our Saviour, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Matthew 22:14,) is also very improperly interpreted, (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12.) There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savour of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. " (Institutes 3:24:8)

savedbygrace57 · Nov 17, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
John Calvin.

"The expression of our Saviour, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Matthew 22:14,) is also very improperly interpreted, (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12.) There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savour of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. " (Institutes 3:24:8)

Calvin is wrong..

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

savedbygrace57 said:
Calvin is wrong..

said mr hyper !

Van · Nov 17, 2007

Here are the names: Paul, Peter, Matthew.

And the name of one who said many are called but few are chosen? Matthew quoted Jesus on that one.

Folks, add "special call" to the many names used for the fiction of the inner call.

Van · Nov 17, 2007

Folks just read John 1:12-13, it does not say nor suggest the folks that received Christ we first born by the will of God. Nope, it says after they believed, then they were given the right to become children of God, by being born again by the will of God. The contention that a person can be born again by the will of God yet not have received Christ is silly. First we receive Christ, we put our faith in Him alone, then God gives us the right to become children of God by causes us to be born again.

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

Van said:
Here are the names: Paul, Peter, Matthew.

And the name of one who said many are called but few are chosen? Matthew quoted Jesus on that one.

Folks, add "special call" to the many names used for the fiction of the inner call.

fine , i asked for the names of a few theologians you reply with Apostles because they did not debate this issue ..... all we are left with is van's interpretation of the apostles and no theologians to back his claims , as expected.

the reason there can be no theologians to back these claims is because they are so novel no-one ever heard of them until van arrived , fiction ? yes your views are.

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

Van said:
Folks just read John 1:12-13, it does not say nor suggest the folks that received Christ we first born by the will of God. Nope, it says after they believed, then they were given the right to become children of God, by being born again by the will of God. The contention that a person can be born again by the will of God yet not have received Christ is silly. First we receive Christ, we put our faith in Him alone, then God gives us the right to become children of God by causes us to be born again.

there is no life without life , there is no spiritual insight without spiritual sight ...... the view that faith preceeds regeneration is silly , yes!

you are reading order into a text where no order is given , show the link ........... you cannot .

Folks another of van's blunders !

When John says that God gives the right to become the children of God to all who receive Christ (John 1:12), he goes on to say that those who do receive Christ “were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” In other words, it is necessary to receive Christ in order to become a child of God, but the birth that brings one into the family of God is not possible by the will of man.

The ordo salutis

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.

cygnusx1 · Nov 17, 2007

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man." - C.H. Spurgeon from His sermon Faith and Regeneration

"If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God." - John Hannah (To God be the Glory pg. 34, 35)

Arminianism reverses the order of salvation. It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace. The Arminian argues that in this universal prevenient grace is primary, in that God first offers grace for regeneration. God takes the initiative. He makes the first move and takes the first step. But this step is not decisive. This step may be thwarted by the sinner. If the sinner refuses to cooperate with or assent to this proffered grace, then grace is to no avail.
[excerpts from R. C. Sproul

AndOne · Nov 17, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
dealt with

#67

name three theologians who accept election after calling !

name 1 theologian who accepts election unto salvation in our lifetime ...............

Not that Van would want my help on this - nor should I give it to him -

But wouldn't John Wesley fall into this category? 'Course not sure he could be considered a theologian. I ramble on...

Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

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