Our future sins are not already forgiven? Your thoughts?

[zoidar]

The present assurance of future forgiveness as it relates to a believer's justified status :

Another way to perceive your question would be, "Can believers possess a present assurance of a future entrance into Heaven? ... or will failure on the part of some to confess or repent of their future sins "sufficiently" disqualify them from their Heavenly inheritance [in which case will necessarily render the impossibility of any single believer from possessing the present assurance that their future sins will never disqualify them]?

Many of those who believe that some genuine believers will lose [forfeit] their salvation agree that the believer can [and must] have assurance that they are a child of God. However, they don't believe this assurance includes a "future tense assurance." That is to say, they claim that this assurance can only be a present possession - believers are yet in some type of "probationary standing" in which they may yet fail to inherit what God has promised them [concerning their Heavenly inheritance ... future tense]. And if what they are saying is true, they cannot even logically claim to possess assurance that they will "remain saved" come next week or even tomorrow for that matter!

As I see it, the crucial question to ponder in the midst of this is, "Were genuine believers merely placed into some sort of probationary period [the first of a "two-step process" necessary to make the "final cut"?]. Or, did Christ's blood shed at Calvary actually and decisively atone for, and end once for all, the question of the issue of God's wrath and condemnation as it relates to those who have been washed by the precious blood of Jesus? It is my strong conviction that the latter is the gospel truth... it truly is the Good News that God legitimately offers to all.

To illustrate my assertion - What if a friend of mine was to say to me, "Today I've received Jesus as my Lord and Savior! I've placed all my faith and hope in His atoning work for the forgiveness of my sins; it's like a ten ton weight has been lifted off of me!!"? ... Should I respond by saying, "Praise God for this amazing news, I hope and pray that you make it to Heaven someday, I hope that you realize that you are still on probation despite the fact that you have been washed and cleansed you by the blood of Jesus?" ... I certainly hope that wouldn't be your response [whether it be verbal or your internal mind-set].

Now, it may be true that I may wonder if he or she truly placed their faith in Christ's atoning work on their behalf, and have asked for forgiveness solely on that basis. And, I may anxiously await to see if their are any fruits or evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence subsequent to my friend's profession of faith. But once again, the question revolves full circle back to question of genuineness. Was that person's faith truly "saving", was their faith directed, and placed upon the proper object of faith?... that being Christ's atoning work and His righteousness alone apart from anything that they can offer.

The real question at hand here is NOT, "will any person who has been justified before God lose or forfeit that position?"...but rather, "did that person ever experience the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and a justified standing before God?"

It's an important questions you bring up. I guess if you believe you can be saved and down the road lose your salvation, you can only be 100% sure of your present state of being a saved person.

But even if you can forfeit salvation for whatever reason, it doesn't mean there must be insecurity. Like being a dad to a child. The possibility of you leaving your child is there, but it's not like you are afraid this might happen, or feel insecure about it. Yet such things happen, even to good people.

 

[Rapture Bound]

It's an important questions you bring up. I guess if you believe you can be saved and down the road lose your salvation, you can only be 100% sure of your present state of being a saved person.

But even if you can forfeit salvation for whatever reason, it doesn't mean there must be insecurity. Like being a dad to a child. The possibility of you leaving your child is there, but it's not like you are afraid this might happen, or feel insecure about it. Yet such things happen, even to good people.

You replied "But even if you can forfeit salvation for whatever reason, it doesn't mean there must be insecurity."

Well, from my perspective, it doesn't seem logically possible that at least some degree of insecurity doesn't exist in the minds of those who believe in LOS [Loss Of Salvation]. If they claim that some genuine blood-bought believers will ultimately perish, what then provides them with the assurance that they will not be one of those casualties? What then is it exactly that makes them so [presently] assured that they [specifically] are not going to be counted among those casualties? ...what makes them [as individuals] so special? ...what then provides [them] any type of genuine security or guarantee?

Keep in mind that it's exclusively those who assert that at least some genuine believers will necessarily and ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire [LOS] that can logically claim that their future sins have not yet been forgiven [present tense] and covered by trusting in [past tense] the blood of Christ. In other words, in their case, and in their minds, they may or may not continue in their justified status before God [i.e. - their eternal destiny is yet (presently) in jeopardy].

Therefore, if their eternal destiny is yet in jeopardy, it appears to me that there must necessarily be some degree of present insecurity. After all, according to the LOS mindset, they may or may not remain in a justified standing before God next month or even next week [varying and depending upon just how short of a time period each individual LOS person reckons is sufficient to potentially forfeit their justified status].

 

[zoidar]

You replied "But even if you can forfeit salvation for whatever reason, it doesn't mean there must be insecurity."

Well, from my perspective, it doesn't seem logically possible that at least some degree of insecurity doesn't exist in the minds of those who believe in LOS [Loss Of Salvation]. If they claim that some genuine blood-bought believers will ultimately perish, what then provides them with the assurance that they will not be one of those casualties? What then is it exactly that makes them so [presently] assured that they [specifically] are not going to be counted among those casualties? ...what makes them [as individuals] so special? ...what then provides [them] any type of genuine security or guarantee?

Keep in mind that it's exclusively those who assert that at least some genuine believers will necessarily and ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire [LOS] that can logically claim that their future sins have not yet been forgiven [present tense] and covered by trusting in [past tense] the blood of Christ. In other words, in their case, and in their minds, they may or may not continue in their justified status before God [i.e. - their eternal destiny is yet (presently) in jeopardy].

Therefore, if their eternal destiny is yet in jeopardy, it appears to me that there must necessarily be some degree of present insecurity. After all, according to the LOS mindset, they may or may not remain in a justified standing before God next month or even next week [varying and depending upon just how short of a time period each individual LOS person reckons is sufficient to potentially forfeit their justified status].

You replied "But even if you can forfeit salvation for whatever reason, it doesn't mean there must be insecurity."

Well, from my perspective, it doesn't seem logically possible that at least some degree of insecurity doesn't exist in the minds of those who believe in LOS [Loss Of Salvation]. If they claim that some genuine blood-bought believers will ultimately perish, what then provides them with the assurance that they will not be one of those casualties? What then is it exactly that makes them so [presently] assured that they [specifically] are not going to be counted among those casualties? ...what makes them [as individuals] so special? ...what then provides [them] any type of genuine security or guarantee?

Keep in mind that it's exclusively those who assert that at least some genuine believers will necessarily and ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire [LOS] that can logically claim that their future sins have not yet been forgiven [present tense] and covered by trusting in [past tense] the blood of Christ. In other words, in their case, and in their minds, they may or may not continue in their justified status before God [i.e. - their eternal destiny is yet (presently) in jeopardy].

Therefore, if their eternal destiny is yet in jeopardy, it appears to me that there must necessarily be some degree of present insecurity. After all, according to the LOS mindset, they may or may not remain in a justified standing before God next month or even next week [varying and depending upon just how short of a time period each individual LOS person reckons is sufficient to potentially forfeit their justified status].

"Keep in mind that it's exclusively those who assert that at least some genuine believers will necessarily and ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire [LOS] that can logically claim that their future sins have not yet been forgiven [present tense] and covered by trusting in [past tense] the blood of Christ."

Check Lutheran theology. They certainly believe God has forgiven us past, present and future sins, yet they believe you can forfeit your salvation.

No genuine believer will be cast into the lake of fire, but if you can stop being a genuine believer in the future the possibility is there.

The security for the Lutheran comes from knowing that God will keep you as long as you keep trusting in Him alone for your salvation. Lutherans believe if you start to include works into the equation you have gone from grace to putting yourself under the law, and is thereby putting your salvation at risk.

Ask Lutherans if they feel uncertain about their future salvation. I know the answer. They will most certainly tell you "no!"

 

[Rapture Bound]

"Keep in mind that it's exclusively those who assert that at least some genuine believers will necessarily and ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire [LOS] that can logically claim that their future sins have not yet been forgiven [present tense] and covered by trusting in [past tense] the blood of Christ."

Check Lutheran theology. They certainly believe God has forgiven us past, present and future sins, yet they believe you can forfeit your salvation.

No genuine believer will be cast into the lake of fire, but if you can stop being a genuine believer in the future the possibility is there.

The security for the Lutheran comes from knowing that God will keep you as long as you keep trusting in Him alone for your salvation. Lutherans believe if you start to include works into the equation you have gone from grace to putting yourself under the law, and is thereby putting your salvation at risk.

Ask Lutherans if they feel uncertain about their future salvation. I know the answer. They will most certainly tell you "no!"

You replied, "Ask Lutherans if they feel uncertain about their future salvation. I know the answer. They will most certainly tell you "no!"

It seems to me that that type of security is a false sense of security ... Why? as I clearly demonstrated in my prior post, by their own admission they say that some of them will forfeit their justified status [i.e - their justified status in in jeopardy ... it is changeable/alterable. Some "Protestants" or "non- Roman Catholics" even believe that they can "morph in and out of their justified status" [i.e - born again, "un-born again", then - "born again ... again", "un-born again ... again" ...etc., etc. etc. - can you see the folly in this?] - which is clearly the Roman Catholic Church position]. Why do they presume that they are one of those who will "pass the test"? What is the basis or grounding for their so-called "assurance"? ... it simply does not exist, that is, if their claim is true that some blood-bought believers will actually forfeit their justified status and perish eternally?


You said, "The security for the Lutheran comes from knowing that God will keep you as long as you keep trusting in Him alone for your salvation."

My question to them would be, "How can I be assured that I will keep trusting in Him?" ..."what exactly is the basis or grounding for such a presumption? ... again, that is, if their claim is true that some blood-bought believers will actually forfeit their justified status and perish eternally? ... it simply doesn't exist.

 

[BrotherJJ]

What do you think of the idea that when we are saved all our past sins are forgiven, but not our future sins? Thoughts?

4 minute clip.

Sacrifice's & substitution sacrifices. Heaven's rule found in Rom 6:23, the wage (cost/price) for sin is death.

The 1st animal sacrifice (an innocent dying in place of the guilty) for sin happen in the garden of Eden. Adam & Eve CHOOSE to SIN = transgress heavenly law. Their sin/transgression had to be pay heavens required price.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Animal sacrifices, an innocent dying in place of the guilty. Was a temporary form of sin payment, picture a credit card. This continued for millenia, until the ultimate "Once & For All" God blood sinless/innocent sacrifice was offered. The Eternal Son of God, Jesus the Christ offers Himself & pays for Adam & Eve's/Mankind's sin crisis!

God kills he 1st animal here:
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
(MY NOTE: Animals died to cover/clothe/pay sins just/must required wage/payment "DEATH")

Their son Abel brings the next recorded sacrificial offering here:
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
(MY NOTE: The Lord rejected Cain's bloodless self works sacrifice)

Noah
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Abraham
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
(MY NOTE: Jehovahjireh means: "The Lord Will Provide". Provide what? A sin sacrifice, later Christ becomes that provision.

Covenant at Sinai
And there were many animal sacrifices (millions?) offered for sin under the Covenant at Sinai. Until the ultimate "Once & For All" sinless God blood sacrifice is offered. When Jesus makes the ultimate willful sin atoning sacrifice.

BTW: animal sacrifices only covered sin for 1 year, needed to be repeated & couldn't remove or forgive sin.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, "which taketh away the sin of the world".
(MY NOTE: Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY sin)

As noted, throughout the OT substitution sacrifices/the innocent dying for the guilty. Israelites' firstborn required a sacrifice. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, then God provided a ram as a substitute. Day of atonement two goats were used as sin substitutes. Then Christ made the final once for all time substitution sacrifice.

He exchanged his Righteousness for our sinfulness. Willingly accepting our punishment due/required/sin payment, in our place. Taking upon himself ALL the believers sins, past, present & future. All their sin was judged by the Father & nailed to His cross.

Jesus atonement is appropriated/seized by faith (Rom 5:1-2). It not only covers, but, TAKES AWAY/REMOVES the believer/seizers sins past-present-future. When all sins are removed no further judgment is required.

 

[JLB777]

Jesus atonement is appropriated/seized by faith (Rom 5:1-2). It not only covers, but, TAKES AWAY/REMOVES the believer/seizers sins past-present-future. When all sins are removed no further judgment is required.

Please provide the scripture that says our “future” sins are forgiven.


The sin that is forgiven is the sin that is confessed.

Here is how Jesus teaches us to deal with another Christian brother who has sinned.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


After the person has been confronted when the brother, then two, then the Church elders have tried to convince him to repent, and he doesn’t then he is considered as a heathen; someone who is unsaved; a sinner.


So much for future sins being forgiven.



JLB

 

[Rapture Bound]

Sacrifice's & substitution sacrifices. Heaven's rule found in Rom 6:23, the wage (cost/price) for sin is death.

The 1st animal sacrifice (an innocent dying in place of the guilty) for sin happen in the garden of Eden. Adam & Eve CHOOSE to SIN = transgress heavenly law. Their sin/transgression had to be pay heavens required price.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Animal sacrifices, an innocent dying in place of the guilty. Was a temporary form of sin payment, picture a credit card. This continued for millenia, until the ultimate "Once & For All" God blood sinless/innocent sacrifice was offered. The Eternal Son of God, Jesus the Christ offers Himself & pays for Adam & Eve's/Mankind's sin crisis!

God kills he 1st animal here:
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
(MY NOTE: Animals died to cover/clothe/pay sins just/must required wage/payment "DEATH")

Their son Abel brings the next recorded sacrificial offering here:
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.
(MY NOTE: The Lord rejected Cain's bloodless self works sacrifice)

Noah
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Abraham
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
(MY NOTE: Jehovahjireh means: "The Lord Will Provide". Provide what? A sin sacrifice, later Christ becomes that provision.

Covenant at Sinai
And there were many animal sacrifices (millions?) offered for sin under the Covenant at Sinai. Until the ultimate "Once & For All" sinless God blood sacrifice is offered. When Jesus makes the ultimate willful sin atoning sacrifice.

BTW: animal sacrifices only covered sin for 1 year, needed to be repeated & couldn't remove or forgive sin.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, "which taketh away the sin of the world".
(MY NOTE: Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY sin)

As noted, throughout the OT substitution sacrifices/the innocent dying for the guilty. Israelites' firstborn required a sacrifice. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, then God provided a ram as a substitute. Day of atonement two goats were used as sin substitutes. Then Christ made the final once for all time substitution sacrifice.

He exchanged his Righteousness for our sinfulness. Willingly accepting our punishment due/required/sin payment, in our place. Taking upon himself ALL the believers sins, past, present & future. All their sin was judged by the Father & nailed to His cross.

Jesus atonement is appropriated/seized by faith (Rom 5:1-2). It not only covers, but, TAKES AWAY/REMOVES the believer/seizers sins past-present-future. When all sins are removed no further judgment is required.

You stated, "
" Jesus atonement is appropriated/seized by faith (Rom 5:1-2). It not only covers, but, TAKES AWAY/REMOVES the believer/seizers sins past-present-future. When all sins are removed no further judgment is required."


Yes indeed Brother JJ! Once a person realizes that they possess absolutely nothing in themselves, that is, that they are absolutely helpless to save themselves on the account of their own moral uprightness or righteousness and place their trust in Christ's atoning work for their redemption and righteousness ... they are forever regenerated, their sins are blotted out as far as the west is from the east, NEVER again to be remembered. [as I demonstrated in post #40] < Our future sins are not already forgiven? Your thoughts? >

Psalm 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

Problem is ... many people simply find that this scheme of redemption/salvation is "too hard to believe"; they imagine that it's "too easy" ... there must be something that they must contribute in order to be justified before God other than directing all of their trust in Christ's finished work on the cross... the reality is ...there isn't. Those who refuse to place all of their trust in this reality will tragically remain dead in their sins, separated from that eternal life that was offered to them as a free gift [i.e. - a gift that cannot be earned].

Another major problem is ... many imagine that a person is justified one way [directing all their trust for forgiveness in Christ's atoning work] ... then, subsequent to justification and regeneration, that person must remained justified by an altogether different manner ... their trust in the atoning work ... wait for it ... plus works [however they define it]. The fatal error here is found in a person's failure to distinguish between God's justifying declaration and His sanctifying work. Works are the inevitable by-product of the new birth ... they carry no merit in and of themselves, that honor is solely reserved for Jesus Christ, and could have only been accomplished by Him.

Was the issue of the forgiveness of sins forever settled by the shed blood of Christ for those who have truly believed on His sacrifice for them or not? Or, must a person subsequent to regeneration forever be worried that Christ's blood may not have been enough after all? It appears to me that the only real cause for concern in a person in this scenario is, "have I ever truly been regenerated?", and, "has the blood of Christ ever truly been applied to my heart?"

 

[BrotherJJ]

Please provide the scripture that says our “future” sins are forgiven.


The sin that is forgiven is the sin that is confessed.

Here is how Jesus teaches us to deal with another Christian brother who has sinned.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


After the person has been confronted when the brother, then two, then the Church elders have tried to convince him to repent, and he doesn’t then he is considered as a heathen; someone who is unsaved; a sinner.


So much for future sins being forgiven.



JLB

I've been on these forums for years. I see no point in arguing my faith/beliefs will you , nor what you believe. Your are free to promote your beliefs, as am I.

Out of respect for the discussion forum idea. I'll post a few asked for verses:

Acts 10:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message [confirming God’s acceptance of Gentiles].
(MY NOTE: As Peter spoke, those hearing believed)

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles

(MY NOTE: Thru faith alone, regeneration/Christ's salvation sealing/eternal life giving Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, 2 Tim 1:14, Eph 4:30) was & is given! They repented of nothing, they adhered to No Mosaic laws, weren't water baptized (until later).

Eph 1:7 In Jesus Christ we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
(MY NOTE: Believers HAVE <Present Tense > redemption & FORGIVENESS of sins < Sins is Plural! Also see Col 1:14 & 2:13)

Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
(MY NOTE: Written to believers see Col 1:2. Forgive each other as God FORGAVE < Past Tense/Done > you.)

Col 3:13 Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
(MY NOTE: Written to believers see [Col 1:2]. Vs 13 As the Lord has < Past Tense/Done > FORGIVEN you)

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(MY NOTE: Christ obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(MY NOTE: This new sin management covenant is EVERLASTING. Not just 1 year or until the next time to stumble N fall)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER those He has sanctified)

Ps 37:28 (A) For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever,
(MY NOTE: He PRESERVES his saints FOREVER)

Rev 1:5 Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Jesus Christ that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(MY NOTE: ALL our sins washed/removed/forgiven. Also see Col 1:14 & 2:13)

Believers sins are forgiven & washed away via an EVERLASTING COVENANT!

KJ Bible Dictionary: FORGIV'EN - Pardoned remitted.

FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Definition of FORGIVEN from the King James Bible Dictionary

av1611.com

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words: Forgiven - [ A-2,Verb,G5483, charizomai ]
"to bestow a favor unconditionally," is used of the act of "forgiveness," whether Divine, Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:13; or human, Luke 7:42-Luke 7:43 (debt); 2 Corinthians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:32 (1st mention)

King James Bible dictionary say's; believers sins are PARDONED.

Vines Bible dictionary say's; the believers sin forgiveness is UNCONDITIONAL & NOT until the next time you slip/fall/sin. Best wishes, JJ

 

[JLB777]

I've been on these forums for years. I see no point in arguing my faith/beliefs will you , nor what you believe. Your are free to promote your beliefs, as am I.

Your belief that a Christians “future” sins are forgiven when he is saved, is not founded in scripture, as I so plainly have shown from the teaching of Jesus Christ.


The sin that is forgiven is the sin that is confessed.

Here is how Jesus teaches us to deal with another Christian brother who has sinned.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


After the person has been confronted when the brother, then two, then the Church elders have tried to convince him to repent, and he doesn’t then he is considered as a heathen; someone who is unsaved; a sinner.


Obviously if this brother’s “future” sins had already been forgiven, then there would be no need to confront him and compel him to repent, so he doesn’t become lost.


Jesus teaching is clear and can not be refuted.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3

• if he repents, forgive him.

JLB

 

[BrotherJJ]

Your belief that a Christians “future” sins are forgiven when he is saved, is not founded in scripture, as I so plainly have shown from the teaching of Jesus Christ.


The sin that is forgiven is the sin that is confessed.

Here is how Jesus teaches us to deal with another Christian brother who has sinned.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


After the person has been confronted when the brother, then two, then the Church elders have tried to convince him to repent, and he doesn’t then he is considered as a heathen; someone who is unsaved; a sinner.


Obviously if this brother’s “future” sins had already been forgiven, then there would be no need to confront him and compel him to repent, so he doesn’t become lost.


Jesus teaching is clear and can not be refuted.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3

• if he repents, forgive him.

JLB

Again I say, you're free to promote your heart/beliefs, as am I. We've presented our viewpoints & I'll leave this at we disagree. May His grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ