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OT Polygymy and NT Chastity

Lionroot

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Ave Maria said:
I think it should be noted that every instance of polygamy in the Bible always had some sort of bad effect. Also, I am pretty sure that God never actually condoned polygamy in the Bible.

The first monogamy brought sin and death into the world. Can there be a worse "effect"? Is this really a good litmus test?

The second monogamy was Cain's marriage, another strong endorsement.

The next monogamous women mentioned in the Bible is Rebekah. She deceives her husband, and creates a murderous division between her own sons.

The problem with your rule is that it is arbitrary, and not Biblical. Find a Biblical principle to help you judge.

As Paul says marriages have problems.

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Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
 
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Armistead14

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The first monogamy brought sin and death into the world. Can there be a worse "effect"? Is this really a good litmus test?

The second monogamy was Cain's marriage, another strong endorsement.

The next monogamous women mentioned in the Bible is Rebekah. She deceives her husband, and creates a murderous division between her own sons.

The problem with your rule is that it is arbitrary, and not Biblical. Find a Biblical principle to help you judge.

As Paul says marriages have problems.

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.


Very good points, seemed monogamy started all the problems to start with...:p
 
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chingchang

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In the OT there is rampant polygamy, what really gets me though is that the polygamists were the ones closest to God: Abraham and David, etc. What I'm trying to understand is if it is sin to have sex with a woman before marriage (fornication) as well as adultery in marriage. How did the likes of David and Abraham get out of this law and marry numerous women (and have numerous other concubines, even worse). This has been troubling me lately. I have a problem with lust and I just want to see it as the sin that deep down I know it is. But when I read about these people of God (friends of God) in the bible and how they basically had another woman for every day of the month...How am I to reconcile this with "whoever lusts after a woman commits adultery"?

Can someone help me reconcile these things with the truth of the word of God, I do not doubt this can be done, I just haven't been able to do it.

My guess is you don't really have a problem with lust...you just misunderstand sexual desire. If you really are seeking in the area of Christian sexual ethics...then I highly recommend this book:

Amazon.com: Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition (9781553954002): Philo Thelos: Books

...you won't regret it and you WILL come to a mature and full understanding of these issues.

God Bless You!
CC
 
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Lionroot

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SoldierOfSoul said:
In the OT there is rampant polygamy, ...

So why "rampant", why not prevalent?

Normally the word rampant is reserved for things like "rampant crime". Did you intend to vilify Abraham, Moses, and other of God's chosen men?

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
 
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BeforeThereWas

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In the OT there is rampant polygamy, what really gets me though is that the polygamists were the ones closest to God: Abraham and David, etc.

Yeah, and what'll REALLY strip your gears is that God directly involved Himself in the GIVING of plural wives.

What I'm trying to understand is if it is sin to have sex with a woman before marriage (fornication) as well as adultery in marriage. How did the likes of David and Abraham get out of this law and marry numerous women (and have numerous other concubines, even worse).

There's no right answer to the wrong question:

Those men were fully married to their wives. It was never a matter of having sex with them before marriage.

This has been troubling me lately. I have a problem with lust and I just want to see it as the sin that deep down I know it is.

Not all lust is sinful. However, lust becomes sin when lusting after what isn't rightfully yours for the taking.

But when I read about these people of God (friends of God) in the bible and how they basically had another woman for every day of the month...How am I to reconcile this with "whoever lusts after a woman commits adultery"?

There's nothing to reconcile.

Why do you assume that having plural wives was a matter of sin and lust?

You've jumped to a conclusion that has faulty premises.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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It's interesting to note that both Abraham and David came to serious grief because of their polygamous ways.

Abraham took Hagar to wife because that's what Sarah wanted him to do, just as Eve told Adam to eat the forbidden fruit.

However, saying that, because of polygyny, Abraham experienced the problems he did is to insert into scriupture what isn't there. Abraham had other wives besides Hagar, and we're told nothing about his having problems because of them.

As for David, his problems didn't stem from polygyny itself. He committed adultery with another man's wife, and then had the husband killed to try and cover for his sin. It wasn't until AFTER those events that David had problems. At that time, David already had at least five wives, two of which we know were given to him by God.

David fell in lust with Bathsheba, and had Uriah taken out of the way so he could marry her. David was severely punished for his evil.
Which has nothing to do with polygyny itself. Polygyny is marriage, just as monogamy is marriage. Blaming one form for the ills of those men is a dishonest handling of the texts. One need only look around today and see the MANY ills within monogamy. Humanity has a way of messing up anything and everything upon which its hands lay.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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You say, "Well, how did polygamy get started?" It got started in the reprobate line of Cain the murderer.

Yep. And monogamy started with the very man who brought sin and death into this world.

Do we then discount marriage altogether?

There are those who refuse to consider the implications of their words.

God directly involved Himself in the giving of plural wives.

He gave Adam one wife, but He gave David several...which means nothing at all in relation to the rest of mankind throughout history.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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Why not? 1 Cor 7. Passages like Matt 19 and 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 rule it out. [/color]

Yes, those rule it out for those who are bishops and deacons. Nothing is said in reference to all others...unless you routinely force into scripture what isn't there.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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Um, no moses had ONE wife, she was the cushite woman, same woman, don't you read your bible? you people are trying to justify the partice of adultery and fornication. If fornication is not allowed outside marriage, what makes you think it is inside.

Where did Abraham repent of having all his wives, and Gideon, and David, or any others? Please provide reference.

You must believe God causes men to sin because He gave David at least two wives.

What Bible do YOU read? The King James states exactly what I said here.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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I think it should be noted that every instance of polygamy in the Bible always had some sort of bad effect. Also, I am pretty sure that God never actually condoned polygamy in the Bible.

I noted that you're wrong. Where did Gideon have bad effects as a result of polygyny?

Reference please.

BTW
 
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Lionroot

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dayhiker said:
Good posts BeforeThereWas,
How/why did you come to study this topic?

Which topic are you asking him about? Marriage? Gideon? David? The Commandments?

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
 
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Lionroot

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dayhiker said:
lionroot .. the topics he just finished posting about.

All those topics are in the Bible. Any serious student of God's word would know that, as I am certain you do.

Which begs the question, What answer were you trying to solicit?

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
 
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BeforeThereWas

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Good posts BeforeThereWas,
How/why did you come to study this topic?

A man with three wives challenged me to study the subject, completely independent of any and all bias originating from socially engineered theologies, and to let scripture speak for itself.

I have to admit...it wasn't easy, and some long-standing pillars of socially engineered theologies came crashing down hard.

Being honest with one's own self is not alwasy an easy thing to do with a head and heart full of trash one WANTS to believe.

Hmm. Me thinks there are some toes crunching somewhere around here...

:sorry:

I firmly believe in chastity. Generally speaking, what I can't figure out is how people who claim to love the word of God can redefine key terms from scripture to whatever definition fits their fancy...or someone else's fancy they chose to believe without ever checking it all out for themselves.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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Years ago, I actually heard some goof-ball behind a pulpit spouting his bilge about what a sin it is for a man to lust after his own wife.

:confused:

Such a thing had never occurred to me that a man could lust after his wife...at least to the extent that it is sinful.

Well, he went on with his babbling, stating how it is ok to desire intimacy with one's wife, but that anything beyond that is sinful lust.

At no time during his painting-himself-into-a-corner litany did he ever differentiate his use of the key terms, so we were all left hanging...wondering what in the world he was talking about.

It's one thing for a man to look upon a woman not his wife, and allow his attraction to evolve into sexual desire, which could be defined as a form of lust ONLY because she is not his wife.

However, when the hormones are raging through a husband's veins, he looks at his wife and allows his attraction to evolve into a strong desire for her (otherwise defined as lust, according to that preacher), that's the subjective line a husband crosses according to that preacher's meaningless speech.

Then we have people like James Dobson yammering about how a husband must understand that his wife can't comfortably function in a sexual capacity if she's not in the mood to satisfy his need. On the other hand, Dobson claimed that a man is clearly in the wrong dare he ever fail to provide his wife the emotional support she needs from her husband, which is quite often according to his alleged scholarship.

(scratching head) A logical assessment could be made about what he actually said, and determine that the responsibility for meeting the needs of the other is primarily one-sided. When it comes to mood, only that of the wife carries any legitimate weight. The husband allegedly has no excuse for not meeting his wife's need for emotional support if he's not in a mood that would allow him to be an effective support.

Dare a man declare to his wife that he's not in the mood to provide her an episode of emotional support, and Hell hath no fury. But, according to Dobson, a husband must control his need out of consideration for his wife's alleged inability for function in that area when she isn't intellectually and emotionally inclined toward such a...fulfillment.

It's no wonder there's so much dysfunctionality in so many marriages within Christian communities. A prominant man who heads up the Focus on the Family ministry, and yet believes in theistic evolution, is telling couples that imbalance in each one's responsibility toward the other is healthy and right.

Then, products of outlandish teachings of people like Dobson look through scriptures into the lives of the Patriarchs of the very faith they claim to be a part of, and demand those men were guilty of sinful lust originating from some social construct none of them can actually put their finger on...but, oh, everyone's an authority, duly authorized to declare sin in the lives of men they've never even met.

According to socially engineered theologies, we may as well expect to stand in Heaven, looking down over the edge of whatever cloud we happen to be standing upon at the moment, and observe the Patriarchs screeching in agony while burning in the pits of Hell for having had plural wives.

After all, they were guilty of fornicative lust for having had more than one wife.....right?

Oh, and we dare not forget that the coming of Christ Jesus somehow changed the foundation of marriage, allegedly making it a sin for a man to possess more than one wife at any given time throughout his life. Such a belief is promoted while ignoring the serialized polygamy going on in the very lives of people they know and love, right under their very noses within the institutional churches they attend.

Yessiree, boys and girls. I rarely ever hear the thunder-clap of judgment spewing forth from those same people toward the rampant divorce and remarriage going on within institutionalized religion all over this country...as if God had ever handed our legal system the divine keys of authority to redefine marriage from the definition handed to us in Genesis 2.

Oh, yes. Dare we look back at Genesis 2, it becomes quite clear that there are couples today and throughout recent history who possess(ed) that piece of paper from City Hall, but who are(were) NOT married in God's eyes, and therefore living(lived) together in fornicative, adulterous social marriage.

(with their noses stuck up in the air) Well, it's too uncomfortable looking at things the way they really are, but more fun poking condemnations in the direction of a topic most don't understand, nor desire to understand from God's perspective.

Individual subjectivity is more conducive to the manic fun behind pretending that scripture doesn't say what's actually written. The worldview portraiture most people paint in their minds resembles very little of what we may read in scriptures on any given day.

It's written that there's nothing new under the sun...

BTW
 
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Armistead14

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It's sad that people still fall for the political/religious doctrines created by men to control sexuality with fear and guilt and the redefinition of lust to sexual desires when the bible defines it to a person that covets.

Sexual desires comes from puberty, being part of the way we were designed. If these lust nuts really believe what they teach then seems God played a cruel joke on humanity for putting us through puberty starting at about age 12.

Thankfully they don't define any eating as they do lust, we would all starve and die out.
 
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dayhiker

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BTW,
Ya, what's being taught today in very serious tones make for good rants when compared to actual human biology, verses of Scripture they ignore, other teachings thruout church history etc.

I think the man's responsibility to get/keep a woman in the mood thing should be: ya a man needs to know how to be romantic and enjoy that aspect of love making. But a woman needs to learn how to jump a guys bones just for the sex and have fun with that as well. Don't pick one one method and say that's the only one, we each should learn to appreciate the others prefers style.

Well, BTW ... thanks for sharing how you got where you are.
 
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Armistead14

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BTW,
Ya, what's being taught today in very serious tones make for good rants when compared to actual human biology, verses of Scripture they ignore, other teachings thruout church history etc.

I think the man's responsibility to get/keep a woman in the mood thing should be: ya a man needs to know how to be romantic and enjoy that aspect of love making. But a woman needs to learn how to jump a guys bones just for the sex and have fun with that as well. Don't pick one one method and say that's the only one, we each should learn to appreciate the others prefers style.

Well, BTW ... thanks for sharing how you got where you are.

Yep, some women aren't so emotionally frigid or selfish and have no problems with pleasing there man when they're not emotionally available.
Some actually enjoying doing so.
 
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