OT Polygymy and NT Chastity

[brightmorningstar]

I don't see Christ, nor any apostle calling polygamy sin, but we do see a different tone.

Why not? 1 Cor 7. Passages like Matt 19 and 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 rule it out.

 

[Britg89]

For those who try to justify this form of adultery by using the bible just remember something: David and them all repented of polygamy. Remember, they were all raised in pagan cultures. Jacob did not walk with God till after he had all those wives, David's wives all get put away, and after Samuel 12 we never hear of david having another wife but one-bethsheba. He even refuses the woman they bring him in 1 Kings 1:4. He could have had her, but he chose not to, showing that he truly became a man after all of God's ways, and left the sins of his youth. as for polygamy being a sin it clearly is al throughout scripture. Matthew 19:9-now think here- if an unvalid divorce means the marraige contract is still valid, than any other spouse besides the first is considered adulterous. Matthew 5:28, how can a man even THINK of having another wife? it would be adulterous for him to lust for one.

If they were here today, they would not be having multiple wives, because they'd seek God's will and what's best for women. I have met people in Judiasm who claim that polygamy, pornography, abortion, pre marital sex, and even lesbians are not sinful acts simply because there is no BLATANT ot scripture against it, yet the Nt expounds on the old. Jesus/Yeshua is the word/torah, and he came to give us greater detail.

 

[dayhiker]

Well, don't forget that Moses had 3 wives as well. So he is another great man of God that had multiple wives. We even see in Num.12 when Merrium and Aaron are upset with Moses, that God defends Moses in taking a 2nd wife.

For those that point out the problems men had who had multiple wives, remember that that in 1 Cor.7 that Paul tells us people who marry will have trials in the flesh.

No where in the Bible does it tell us that anyone repented of having multiple wives. David stopped seeing 10 of his wives after David's son challenged David's authority to be king by having sex with those 10 wives on top of the house for all Israel to see. The 10 wives had committed adultery.

No, I can't find a verse in all the Bible that says having more than one wife is a sin. But I can find verse where God supports it.

 

[Freedom63]

Well, don't forget that Moses had 3 wives as well. So he is another great man of God that had multiple wives. We even see in Num.12 when Merrium and Aaron are upset with Moses, that God defends Moses in taking a 2nd wife.

For those that point out the problems men had who had multiple wives, remember that that in 1 Cor.7 that Paul tells us people who marry will have trials in the flesh.

No where in the Bible does it tell us that anyone repented of having multiple wives. David stopped seeing 10 of his wives after David's son challenged David's authority to be king by having sex with those 10 wives on top of the house for all Israel to see. The 10 wives had committed adultery.

No, I can't find a verse in all the Bible that says having more than one wife is a sin. But I can find verse where God supports it.

Exactly!!

 

[dayhiker]

I was just reading some of the church fathers. Its interesting to see the predicament they got themselves in. God wants every Christian to be celibate. Since any sexual desire, some would have said even sexual impulses, will lead to a non celibate life all sexual desire must be considered sinful. Now the Jews considered the main purpose God created women was to help man, especially to bear him children. Now once Christian leaders like Augustine said that Christians shouldn't marry but be celibate what was the purpose of woman? Augustine thought another man was better for fellowship than a woman. Clearly a man was better to work the fields. Yup, they didn't have a purpose for women any longer. Maybe this is why Jerome was comfortable say woman should fast till they had no sexual desire. To fast that much put one right on the edge of starvation. Women that followed Jerome's advice found that they had no fat on their body. Even their breasts were flat as a pancake. That of course was great because no man would lust after them. Clearly, that was another reason these church fathers didn't have much use for woman, they were a source of sexual temptation for men.

Its really amazing how far the early church got love and sex mixed up after Jesus our Lord showed such compassion on the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

It's surprisingly tough to argue for monogamy from Scripture - but it can be done.

The trick is in the subtleties, but if you asked me, the clearest indicator of monogamy being the standard would be Israels' marriage with YHWH.

Adam and Eve are also crucial here - their monogamous marriage was the original way it was supposed to be, but alloweances were made for the hardness of peoples heart, and we're even told that God overlooked the times of ignorance - but with the launch of the new creation in the death of Messiah, the good, original created order (one man, one woman) was reaffirmed.

 

[Freedom63]

It's surprisingly tough to argue for monogamy from Scripture - but it can be done.

The trick is in the subtleties, but if you asked me, the clearest indicator of monogamy being the standard would be Israels' marriage with YHWH.

Adam and Eve are also crucial here - their monogamous marriage was the original way it was supposed to be, but alloweances were made for the hardness of peoples heart, and we're even told that God overlooked the times of ignorance - but with the launch of the new creation in the death of Messiah, the good, original created order (one man, one woman) was reaffirmed.

There is a very large difference between God "allowing for" and God actually providing for. (God provided and defended multiple wives, see David and Moses) To me this issue sums up the reality clearer than anything that God is concerned about our heart...not our actions. This is why we are told that "to the pure in heart, all things are pure".

 

[Britg89]

Well, don't forget that Moses had 3 wives as well. So he is another great man of God that had multiple wives. We even see in Num.12 when Merrium and Aaron are upset with Moses, that God defends Moses in taking a 2nd wife.

For those that point out the problems men had who had multiple wives, remember that that in 1 Cor.7 that Paul tells us people who marry will have trials in the flesh.

No where in the Bible does it tell us that anyone repented of having multiple wives. David stopped seeing 10 of his wives after David's son challenged David's authority to be king by having sex with those 10 wives on top of the house for all Israel to see. The 10 wives had committed adultery.

No, I can't find a verse in all the Bible that says having more than one wife is a sin. But I can find verse where God supports it.

Um, no moses had ONE wife, she was the cushite woman, same woman, don't you read your bible? you people are trying to justify the partice of adultery and fornication. If fornication is not allowed outside marriage, what makes you think it is inside.

 

[Britg89]

And for the record, God never gave David saul's wives to be his.

 

[dayhiker]

Yes, I read my Bible, Britg. That's why I know Moses had more than one wife. I also study what I read, which also helps me know what I read. So let me help you out.

The wives of Moses:
In reading Ex.2:15-21 we find Moses taking his 1st wife in the land of the Midians. Her name was Zipporah. The Bible clearly says Jethro was a priest of the Midianites.
In Num.12 we see Moses marring a Cushite woman.
Then we have Judges 1:16 were it speaks of Moses father-in-law the Kenite.
The Kenites were from the same area as the Midianites. Near the land that God had promised to the Israelites. Today we call this area the Middle East. The Cushites were over 1000 miles south, even south of Eygpt. Today we call them the Ethiopians.You probably know that the skin color of the Ethiopians is very black. So it would be hard to confuse a Midianite with a Cushite woman.



Also I don't justify sin. Adultery and porneia are sins. I prefer to use the Greek word for fornication because of the different meanings the church has given the word thru history.

Um, no moses had ONE wife, she was the cushite woman, same woman, don't you read your bible? you people are trying to justify the partice of adultery and fornication. If fornication is not allowed outside marriage, what makes you think it is inside.

 

[dayhiker]

Have you read 2 Sam.12:8?
It clearly says that God gave Saul's wives into David's arms.

And for the record, God never gave David saul's wives to be his.

 

[Armistead14]

And for the record, God never gave David saul's wives to be his.

2Sam12 7-8
8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

This clearly shows God gave David Saul's wives as he did all his property. This would be in line with biblical law, that David would now have to take care of his wives and kids through marriage or concubinage. Almost always after a person defeated his enemy, he took all that he had and the jews had strict laws dealing with women and children. Some suggest there is no proof David ever married them, but that is still mute to the point that God gave them to him. Bible law shows that most likely David married them or made concubines out of them, he had really no other choice.

 

[Freedom63]

And for the record, God never gave David saul's wives to be his.

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
2 Samuel 12:6-8

 

[dayhiker]

OK .. guys, 3 of us jumping on Britg post is a bit much ... LOL

 

[Freedom63]

OK .. guys, 3 of us jumping on Britg post is a bit much ... LOL

LOL - No doubt. I didn't see yours when I posted or I would not have.

 

[Ave Maria]

I think it should be noted that every instance of polygamy in the Bible always had some sort of bad effect. Also, I am pretty sure that God never actually condoned polygamy in the Bible.

 

[Ave Maria]

Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
(1Ti 3:2-3 RSV)

Here we see that a Bishop is only allowed to have one wife. This is an example of polygamy being condemned in the Bible.

Also, read this article:

Polygamy in the Bible

1664 Unity, indissolubility, and openness to fertility are essential to marriage. Polygamy is incompatible with the unity of marriage; divorce separates what God has joined together; the refusal of fertility turns married life away from its "supreme gift," the child (GS 50 § 1).

 

[dayhiker]

Hi Ave,
Ya, this is a very common response to polygamy. But I don't think Abraham saw it that way. You are right that Sarah and Hagar had their issues after Hagar became pregnant and Sarah was still without child. But its interesting to observe that apparently Abraham didn't see this as a really bad effect because after Sarah died Abraham got married again plus had more than one concubine.
Also if we say one should have more than one wife because of the bed effects, then we should also be saying that no one should get married because Paul said those that get married will have trouble in the flesh. 1 Cor.7:28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

As for God condoning polygamy, God clearly did in both Moses and David's case. So if you are to say God never condoned having more than one wife, then you have twist those verses some how. I'd love for you to show me how one should do that.

An other interesting Biblical exercise is to read Heb.11 the hall of the faithful. As you some to each named man of woman of faith record what they married life and sex life was like. I think you will find almost half of the named saints there had sex lives that would get them kicked out of church after church today. For example, Sarah asked her husband to have sex with another woman. Yet she by faith brought forth a child God promised and Heb. 11 lists her as a woman of faith.

Thanks for adding to our discussion.

I think it should be noted that every instance of polygamy in the Bible always had some sort of bad effect. Also, I am pretty sure that God never actually condoned polygamy in the Bible.

 

[dayhiker]

Here I think you are reading too much into a verse of scripture. In the Roman Empire it was against the law to have more than one wife. One could have a wife and a concubine however. Also Roman law made one exception, Jew could have more than one wife. So Paul is writing to a church that was mostly Gentile and is only addressing the Bishop, not any one else. So this is an exception to the general rule. Paul would want a bishop to only have one wife I think for a couple of reasons. 1st its not good for a bishop to be breaking Caesar's laws. Second, having two wives takes a lot of time and work. So this would mean the bishop would have little time for his responsibilities in the church. Its just common sense for a bishop not to being more persecution onto the church than it already was having.

Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
(1Ti 3:2-3 RSV)

Here we see that a Bishop is only allowed to have one wife. This is an example of polygamy being condemned in the Bible.

 

[Armistead14]

Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
(1Ti 3:2-3 RSV)

Here we see that a Bishop is only allowed to have one wife. This is an example of polygamy being condemned in the Bible.

Also, read this article:

Polygamy in the Bible

Actually because polygamy existed, Bishops were advised to take only one wife, so the verse you qouted was for Bishops/Deacons/Pastors only. The fact he gave only the command to Bishops proves polygamy was still in full force. If you study your church history you will see Popes were polygamous and polygamy existed until a Pope did away with it and all marriage for Priest hundreds of years after Christ. The reason for this verse is clear, so the Bishop could tend to his flock, not many wives.

We see no more trouble biblically with polygamy any other marriage. The fact is 80% of people were polygamous, silly to state every time they sinned it had to do with polygamy.

Do you condemn marriage today even though most have troubles and divorce rates are high or is the issue sin?