Ossetia: Explain, please.

[Till]

'Poor Little Georgia' – Not!

Bill Kristol and the Menshevik myth of democratic Georgia

If McCain wins this election, he will attack Russia. Too bad Obama isn't much better.

Thanks for that SpyridonOCA!

I especially liked the phrase "the commander in chief of America's laptop bombardiers, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol"

I must admit that these people disgust me. I am not a pacifist and I realize that sometimes politicians have to make hard decisions and war is necessary. But the ease with which these Neo-cons choose war is shoking. And the argumentation is too often faulty, fear-mongering and dangerous.

I feel that 30 years ago when most politicians who were active then had experience of having fought in WW II was a saner time.

 

[Akathist]

I don't think McCain is going to attack Russia. Such "scare tactics" is just propaganda done on an amature level. Of course, some people are going to try to take every event that happens and plug it into the U.S. politics.

But really, not everything that happens in the world is about the U.S. election.

I am very grateful for till's replies and as well as others. I had some idea what this was about but was having trouble reading through the poor journalism on the subject.

 

[EvangeliGirl]

But really, not everything that happens in the world is about the U.S. election.

I know, I was so annoyed reading online articles about the conflict when people just started using the topic to argue about the American election in the comments!

 

[MariaRegina]

Here are good sources of news from the UK that tell what is really going on in Georgia.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d0280e8-6b2a-11dd-b613-0000779fd18c.html

Refugees tell a different story of six-day conflict

By Catherine Belton
Published: August 16 2008 03:00

The Ossetians who have fled north to the Alagir camp tell a very different story to those who view the events of the last week as Georgia's plucky struggle against a heavy-handed and imperialist Russia.

Many of their accounts are muddled, but the prevailing view in this camp on the Russian side of the Caucasus mountains is that Georgia's pro-western leader, Mikheil Saakashvili, tried to wipe out their breakaway enclave.

...

"This war will continue," she said. "It's been going on in various ways for 15 years."

Bottom line: It is the oil that drives this feud. The Israelis want the oil. The US is participating using the Special Black Op forces known as Blackwater who have committed GENOCIDE against the South Ossetians. Note that Ossetians are largely Orthodox Christians.

Documentation for the above comment comes from the following three sources:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/georgia.russia4?gusrc=rss&feed=global

Q&A: South Ossetia dispute

• Helen Womack and Mark Tran
• guardian.co.uk,
• Tuesday August 12 2008 16:35 BST

The Ossetians are descendants of a tribe called the Alans. Like the Georgians, the Ossetians are Orthodox Christians, but they have their own language. In Soviet times, the Ossetians had an autonomous region within Georgia. The Georgians say the Ossetians cooperated with the Bolsheviks and tended to be more pro-Soviet. Their ethnic kin live across the border in the Russian region of North Ossetia, so today they feel more drawn to Russia than to Georgia, and many have Russian passports.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html
Last update - 13:15 14/08/2008

Georgia president denies Israel halted military aid due to war

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

<snip>

Georgia President Saakashvili said:

"We have two Israeli cabinet ministers, one deals with war [Defense Minister David Kezerashvili], and the other with negotiations [State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Yakobashvili], and that is the Israeli involvement here.

<snip>

A former Zionist leader who speaks fluent Hebrew, Yakobashvili credited Israeli defense companies with "enabling us to train our army and giving us the possibility to withstand the Russians," ... He ascribed Georgia's feisty military ability to Israeli training, and said that Russian experts had told him "they never believed Georgia has such an army and that they would encounter such resistance."

And another source:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/russia.georgia

Georgia crisis: Medvedev promises to guarantee any vote by rebel states to break with Tbilisi

• Ian Traynor, Europe editor
• The Guardian,
• Friday August 15 2008

Medvedev delivered a robust statement of support for the two rebel regions, while Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, flatly dismissed western insistence that Georgia's territorial integrity had to form the basis for any eventual settlement of the conflict.


"We don't want the collapse of Georgia, but the de facto situation is such that neither the South Ossetians nor the Abkhaz want to live in the same state with the person who has sent his troops against them," said Lavrov.

Please go and view the complete articles.

 

[EvangeliGirl]

I've been reading "Voices From Russia", a blog by a Russian American Orthodox Christian who translates Russian articles into English and often adds her own Editor's notes. She can be a bit snarky, but I really like her coverage:

http://02varvara.wordpress.com/

 

[Till]

Quoted from FT:
The Ossetians who have fled north to the Alagir camp tell a very different story to those who view the events of the last week as Georgia's plucky struggle against a heavy-handed and imperialist Russia.

Many of their accounts are muddled, but the prevailing view in this camp on the Russian side of the Caucasus mountains is that Georgia's pro-western leader, Mikheil Saakashvili, tried to wipe out their breakaway enclave.

That seems to be the truth

BUT

As I mentioned in an earlier thread there were also ethnic cleansings going on against Georgians in South Ossetia in the 1990s.
And it seems that now South Ossetian paramilitaries have again started to expell the last remaining Georgians in South Ossetia and even entered in Georgia proper and commit atrocities there.


This is exactly the same story as during the Yugoslav civil wars in the 1990s. These ethnic conflicts are extremely messy and there is no "good" side to the war. One is retaliating what happened before and then the other side is retaliating again and so on. And as if this mess it not enough, the oily side of the story and the interests of the big players come in as well.

The lady from the "Voices of Russia" blog writes

Georgia planned a campaign of genocide against the peaceful citizens of South Ossetia, but, the Russian government intervened, preventing ethnic cleansings that would have been of equal extent to those in the former Yugoslavia, Darfur, Rwanda, and Somalia.

There is definitely some truth in this. But when she speaks of the "peaceful citizens of South Ossetia" it is also just propaganda. Just the same as Saakashvili speaking of bad, imperialist Russia attacking his peaceful, little Georgia.

Poor Georgians and poor South Ossetians.

 

[E.C.]

The way I see it, is that the US is playing the "blame Russia" card. Let's face it, ever since the Red Scare during the 1910s and 1920s, we were taught that Russians were uncultured robotic barbarians because of the Communism at the time. And we were taught that up until 1989-91ish.
Even before then we saw Imperial Russia as some nation stuck in the 17th century that somehow hung to life way too long.


The only way how Western media will ever play out this whole war is "Russia invaded Georgia". Wrong. We know what happened with regards to this most recent conflict: Georgia attacked South Ossetian separatist areas. Most South Ossetians have Russian passports and are thusly Russian citizens. Russian defended its people from the Georgian attackers.

Since the media and politicians are playing pick-and-choosery here by saying that Georgia's territory needs to be respected, but not respecting that of Serbia's (I still believe Kosovo's recognition to be a direct cause of this) and since Georgia's president does as Washington DC tells him, we have reasons why Russia will be blamed.
The scenario could be different: Georgia could be committing genocide on Ossetians on a scale greater than Rwanda here, Russia could go in to stop it and I would bet my tax refund that Russia would still be blamed and labeled the aggressor.

I have to ask our politicians; what would they do if a section of Mexico that was populated by American citizens was killed off and attacked? Wouldn't we not only say "leave my people alone" but also overthrow the government, put in a Western-friendly one and then hold the old in the Hague whilst demanding compensation to the families? From what I can see, Russia is saying to Georgia "Quit killing my people" while Russia is being told "You need to pull out. They aren't your people".

The hypocrisy, pick-and-choosery and downright neglect of the facts just sickens me.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

Propaganda war is & always has been part of war, folks. Every country's armed forces include special units whose sole purpose is to conduct propaganda - remember those weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had & we haven't seen yet? It's not surprising we common people are getting contradicting reports & can't really make out the truth. It's business as usual in a crisis situation. And of course - it's about humans fighting humans, not angels fighting demons. There aren't good guys & bad guys, just a bunch of dead guys. I'm not with Russia, I'm with peace.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

It appears my oily conspiracy theories seem to make more and more sense day by day...

So in previous response I had refered to this article from Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUSLC53581720080812?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

I don't know if anyone read it to the end and noticed the last paragraph:

The closure leaves BP with a 100,000 bpd pipeline to Russia's Black Sea port of Novorossiisk or a railway line that could export up to 50,000 bpd via Georgia's Black Sea port of Batumi as the only available export options.

The pipeline to Novorissiisk is the one Russia wants to see operating again, because it goes through russian territory & sends the oil to a Russian port. But there was still that railway line.

Following "additional security measures" by Russian forces before their departure, in today's news you can find the following:

In a separate incident, an explosion near the town of Kaspi, west of Tbilisi, damaged a major railway line, forcing Azerbaijan to suspend its transport of crude oil to Georgian Black Sea ports. Georgia accused Russian forces of blowing up the bridge - a charge Russia denies.

I'm quoting from here http://voanews.com/english/2008-08-17-voa4.cfm, but you can find the same report everywhere.

So at the moment, really if any Caspian oil at all is to reach the western market, it has to be through Russia & Russian Black Sea port. There doesn't seem to be any other route in operational state.

Let's wait and see how things unfold further.

PS We can probably expect the price of gas will rise further .

 

[Krus]

Propaganda war is & always has been part of war, folks. Every country's armed forces include special units whose sole purpose is to conduct propaganda - remember those weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had & we haven't seen yet? It's not surprising we common people are getting contradicting reports & can't really make out the truth. It's business as usual in a crisis situation. And of course - it's about humans fighting humans, not angels fighting demons. There aren't good guys & bad guys, just a bunch of dead guys. I'm not with Russia, I'm with peace.

Absolutely agree. I'm with peace.
Russia's claims that this operation is for peace is just a basis for war. Russia is aggressor.
I have the friends either from Russia or from Georgia. All are with peace. No one want war. It is just a politics of Russia to get more power in the region and to show it's readiness for war. But the result - many dead people.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

Well, Russia is the aggressor for intervening into South Ossetia. Georgia is the aggressor for attacking. Russia is the aggressor for provoking. The West is the aggressor for antagonising Russia after the fall of communism (and effectively plundering its resources with their oligarch puppets - they all leave in London these days you know), instead of collaborating.

Stalin was the aggressor for dividing Ossetia between Russia and Georgia. Imperial Russia was the aggressor for conquering Georgia. Persia was the aggressor for threatening Georgia, which prompted Georgia to involve Imperial Russia in the first place. And so on and so forth.

I don't think we are getting anywhere closer to peace, stability & prosperity by playing the "find the aggressor" game.

 

[Krus]

Well, Russia is the aggressor for intervening into South Ossetia. Georgia is the aggressor for attacking. Russia is the aggressor for provoking. The West is the aggressor for antagonising Russia after the fall of communism (and effectively plundering its resources with their oligarch puppets - they all leave in London these days you know), instead of collaborating.

Stalin was the aggressor for dividing Ossetia between Russia and Georgia. Imperial Russia was the aggressor for conquering Georgia. Persia was the aggressor for threatening Georgia, which prompted Georgia to involve Imperial Russia in the first place. And so on and so forth.

I don't think we are getting anywhere closer to peace, stability & prosperity by playing the "find the aggressor" game.

Agree. This is subjective claim who is agressor.
Let's make something for the piece.

 

[E.C.]

Well, Russia is the aggressor for intervening into South Ossetia. Georgia is the aggressor for attacking. Russia is the aggressor for provoking. The West is the aggressor for antagonising Russia after the fall of communism (and effectively plundering its resources with their oligarch puppets - they all leave in London these days you know), instead of collaborating.

Stalin was the aggressor for dividing Ossetia between Russia and Georgia. Imperial Russia was the aggressor for conquering Georgia. Persia was the aggressor for threatening Georgia, which prompted Georgia to involve Imperial Russia in the first place. And so on and so forth.

I don't think we are getting anywhere closer to peace, stability & prosperity by playing the "find the aggressor" game.

True.

In my previous post what I meant by "aggressor" was more so "side that started shooting".

The West makes it look like the Russians and Ossetians started shooting Georgians on August 7 like how Hitler started shooting Poles on September 1. However, as we know it was Georgians who started shooting a week or so ago.

Everyone is an aggressor of sorts I'll agree, however Western politicians and media are twisting the facts and saying that Georgians were the ones first shot at in this conflict. That is what greatly angers me. Media folks are supposed to report the facts without bias. We all know that this is not the case here.

 

[EvangeliGirl]

Right. Of course the church is right not to take a political stance on the conflict, but focuses on the need for peace and prayer for the hearts of all involved. I feel the same way.

But I do think there is some value in untangling ourselves from the media's manipulative web and have a better understanding of the dynamics going on. The victims of this conflict deserve to have their stories told accurately. If the truth is not exposed, justice cannot be done - but, of course, it may be we all have to carry the burden of half-truths and wait for God to bring justice to all on that last great and terrible day.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

OK folks, my comment was mostly for Krus, not for either of you .

My personal take is what I have already expressed in this thread, that Russia acted predictably, exactly as any great military power would do. And I think whoever thought Russia would just let go may want to consider checking a dictionary for the definition of "pragmatism" . The party that acted surprisingly & I really don't know what on earth they were hoping to achieve was definitely the Georgian administration.

 

[EvangeliGirl]

For me, at least, who's just beginning to try and sort all this out.

US-NATO and Israel involved in planning Georgia's military action?

Russia anticipated South Ossetian attack?

Israel and Turkey want to link the BTC and Israeli pipelines to export oil to the Far East?

This article ties it all together:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9788

 

[Thekla]

yup

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127135

http://www.debka.org/article.php?aid=1358

 

[Till]

For me, at least, who's just beginning to try and sort all this out.

US-NATO and Israel involved in planning Georgia's military action?

Russia anticipated South Ossetian attack?

Israel and Turkey want to link the BTC and Israeli pipelines to export oil to the Far East?

This article ties it all together:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9788

It ties it all together, yes. But whether Michel Chossudovsky's conclusions are actually correct, is another story. The problem is: We do not know what is actually going on. We do not know what the US and Isareli military advisers in Georgia did and why. I find it very doubtful that they would not have known of the plans of Georgia to attack but whether they actually planned it or just simply accepted it and for which purpose

Sometimes I wonder whether the situation we as "regular citizens" of democratic states find ourselves in, is really SOOO different from 250 years ago when "the subjects" just did not have a say at all but rulers decided on everything. At least people then knew that they do not matter at all.

 

[EvangeliGirl]

It ties it all together, yes. But whether Michel Chossudovsky's conclusions are actually correct, is another story. The problem is: We do not know what is actually going on. We do not know what the US and Isareli military advisers in Georgia did and why. I find it very doubtful that they would not have known of the plans of Georgia to attack but whether they actually planned it or just simply accepted it and for which purpose

Yeah... I was clueless about any Israeli agenda though. It's a tough point in history for someone as ignorant as me to start trying to grasp a global political/economic perspective on the world. At least Michel Chossudovsky poses some questions rather than only trying to assert his own conclusions, and his background gives him some credibility of being an unbiased expert.

Sometimes I wonder whether the situation we as "regular citizens" of democratic states find ourselves in, is really SOOO different from 250 years ago when "the subjects" just did not have a say at all but rulers decided on everything. At least people then knew that they do not matter at all.

Yeah, what's worse - knowing you're at the complete mercy of the 'powers that be', or being continuously manipulated by them? I don't know...

 

[Yeznik]

Just a few comments:



1)When a government sends its army to dispose of an ethnic minority by force this is considered ethnic cleansing and more appropriately genocide.
2)The Ossetians consider themselves Russian citizens and carry Russian passports. Therefore the Georgian army was attacking Russian citizens.
3)There were Russian peacekeepers assigned to the area that the Georgians attacked and killed.
4)There are 4 parties that are in this predicament, Georgians, Abkhazians, Ossetians and Russians. 3 of the 4 parties state Georgia is the aggressor and instigator.
5)Globally, if the Russians started building missile silos in Mexico and Canada, more specifically bordering regions, the U.S. should appropriately be concerned about Russia’s actions.
6)It is absurd to think when Russian citizens are being attacked that Russia would stand back and do nothing.