OSAS - I was wrong...again

[Romans 8]

the Bible teaches that salvation requires continued faith and obedience to God.

Salvation requires faith, yes I agree.

But for how long must I show faith then, or how much? Is there a minimum amount of time for that? And what must I also do to be saved? How many good deeds would equate to salvation? Is there a list of deeds or a scale to weigh them? If I sin do some of my good deeds get erased? Do I need to start over again? Did the thief on the cross manage to do enough deeds while he was on the cross? Or was he awarded good deeds from his time before the cross? This is really confusing. Which is why it's just not true.

apostasy—a deliberate turning away from Christ—is a very real possibility, and the Bible warns against it. They point to scriptures like the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:3–9) and warnings to endure to the end (Matthew 24:12–13) as evidence that a person's faith can fail.

Not everyone believes right away, leading to salvation. Not everyone that hears the gospel, immediately gets saved.

Example#1 For instance, if I invite someone to church that has never heard the gospel. I would not expect that person to immediately believe everything the pastor told them. It will probably take a few visits to comprehend the gospel, and allow the person to realize that they are in danger of hell fire, and that they are walking on thin ice between this world and the one to come. That if they were to die in their sins, they would definitely go to hell.

Example #2 Next take a person that's swimming on the beach and gets taken out to see in a riptide. How long do you think it would take that person to call out in Jesus name to be saved? Probably not as long as the person voluntarily going to church.

Example#3 The thief on the cross.

Examples 2&3 show an immediate need and desire for a savior. Example #1 This person might attend church because of the social club the church has to offer. Or, maybe they like the worship band. Or, maybe they joined a church offering the prosperity gospel and they believe Jesus grants wishes.

If a person who has genuinely believed in Jesus deliberately rejects their faith and walks away from Christ, they are no longer saved

If a person genuinely believes, God will put His spirit in him:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

And He will keeps us:

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Nope ... OSAS is false

Believers can willfully choose to walk away from their faith and forfeit their relationship with God. Happens all the time my friend.

Revelation 3:5:
"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels".

• every person who has ever been born starts with their name in the Book of Life.
• • Psalm 69:28:
    "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous".
  • • Exodus 32:32:
    • Moses offers to be blotted out of God's book in place of the sinful Israelites, showcasing a self-sacrificial love for his people.

So, I guess God's answer to Moses is dispositive?

And the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Ex 32:33).​

He blots out everyone who sins?

 

[eleos1954]

So, I guess God's answer to Moses is dispositive?

And the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Ex 32:33).​

He blots out everyone who sins?

You need to take the fullness of scripture.

God does not "blot out everyone who sins" in an instant. Instead, the blotting out of sins is a key part of the final, heavenly judgment and is conditional on a person's repentance and faith in Christ.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

When I was first saved a few years ago, I reluctantly subscribed to the doctrine of OSAS. It's a nice thought. Once you put your faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross and resurrection, you're saved for all your sins past, present, and future. Done. But then I would listen to certain pastors, denominations, and even people's NDE's (experiences where people claim to have had direct revelation from God in dying). It shocked me to think that a "born again believer" could actually go to hell because they decided to abandon the faith, or they followed the wrong doctrines later in life, or they didn't show proper fruit and a proper repentance. I remember walking out of the Baptist church when I made my decision for Christ with conflicting thoughts recalling how the pastor informed me how one is saved; that all we need to do is believe and we will inherit eternal life quoting 1 John 5:13. He was right. But later I thought, Can it really be that simple? Emotions play on us, and we listen to the wrong "authority" or we read the wrong book, or watch the wrong video and we can find ourselves trying to please God through our bible reading or devotionals or good deeds, or even second guess our salvation altogether. Given the times we live the world is full of theological error and it's easy to get tripped up.

I found a really great resource I want to share: Andrew Farley has books and a YouTube channel. He has cleared up a lot of questions I had on many challenging verses which people often misinterpret. Andrew makes a great argument in one of his videos entitled, "What if fruit only grows in freedom?", how can we bear fruit if we're cheating on Jesus (grace) with Moses (the law).

*Edit: OSAS is true. Once we're sealed, we're sealed unto the time of redemption. Our names are written in the book of life. For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.*

If you havn't discovered these things yet, you will find upon further study and prayer and trusting the Holy Spirit's guidance that the eternal life we possess in Christ is His life (1 Jn 5:11) and it is the Father's life (John 5:25) and that possessing this life makes us one with them (Jn 17:22-23). As Scripture says, "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). This union with Christ is spiritual, not physical. And when our physical bodies perish, we will be further clothed with spiriutal bodies (1 Cor 15:44). Between now and then, nothing can separate us from His love (Ro 8:31-39), and His Spirit in our hearts is His guarantee to us that we will receive that inheritance (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5). Though we are at this very moment His offspring (inwardly), one day we will be like Him outwardly too, and we will be able to see Him as He really is (1 Jn 3:2).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You need to take the fullness of scripture.

God does not "blot out everyone who sins" in an instant. Instead, the blotting out of sins is a key part of the final, heavenly judgment and is conditional on a person's repentance and faith in Christ.

Ok, good. Wait a second while I look for the Scriptures that say our sins are blotted out. OK, here they are...

• Neh 4:5 - Do not cover their iniquity, and do not let their sin be blotted out from before You; for they have provoked You to anger before the builders.
• Ps 51:1 - Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions.
• Ps 51:9 - Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities.
• Ps 109:14 - Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord, And let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
• Isa 43:25 - “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins.
• Isa 44:22 - I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
• Jer 18:23 - Yet, Lord, You know all their counsel Which is against me, to slay me. Provide no atonement for their iniquity, Nor blot out their sin from Your sight; But let them be overthrown before You. Deal thus with them In the time of Your anger.
• Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

So, it seems you are right. The only way for a person to avoid being blotted out of the book of life is for his sins/transgressions/iniquities to be blotted out before the blotting out of names begins. I don't think any of this supports your argument against the idea that all a person's sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven (blotted out) at the moment he puts his trust in Christ.

Edit: Oops, I left out some words that changed my intended meaning. Fixed now!!!

 

[Dan Perez]

When I was first saved a few years ago, I reluctantly subscribed to the doctrine of OSAS. It's a nice thought. Once you put your faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross and resurrection, you're saved for all your sins past, present, and future. Done. But then I would listen to certain pastors, denominations, and even people's NDE's (experiences where people claim to have had direct revelation from God in dying). It shocked me to think that a "born again believer" could actually go to hell because they decided to abandon the faith, or they followed the wrong doctrines later in life, or they didn't show proper fruit and a proper repentance. I remember walking out of the Baptist church when I made my decision for Christ with conflicting thoughts recalling how the pastor informed me how one is saved; that all we need to do is believe and we will inherit eternal life quoting 1 John 5:13. He was right. But later I thought, Can it really be that simple? Emotions play on us, and we listen to the wrong "authority" or we read the wrong book, or watch the wrong video and we can find ourselves trying to please God through our bible reading or devotionals or good deeds, or even second guess our salvation altogether. Given the times we live the world is full of theological error and it's easy to get tripped up.

I found a really great resource I want to share: Andrew Farley has books and a YouTube channel. He has cleared up a lot of questions I had on many challenging verses which people often misinterpret. Andrew makes a great argument in one of his videos entitled, "What if fruit only grows in freedom?", how can we bear fruit if we're cheating on Jesus (grace) with Moses (the law).

*Edit: OSAS is true. Once we're sealed, we're sealed unto the time of redemption. Our names are written in the book of life. For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.*

And. this what 1 JOHN 5:13 REALLY MEANS !!

# 1 THAT // HOTI. is a CONJUNCATION

# 2 WHO SO EVER //. PAS , is. I the Nominative Case in. the Singular

# 3. IS BORN. // GENNAO. , is in. the PERFECT TENSE , in. the PASSIVE VOICE , is a PARTICIPLE , in. the Nominative CASE

in. the Sngular

# 4 OF //. is a PREPOSTION

# 5. GOD // THEOS , is. in. the GENITIVE CASE ,in. the SINGULAR

# 6 SINNETH // HAMARTANO , is in. the PRESENT TENSE , in. the ACTIVE VOICE , in. the INDICATIVE MOOD , in. the SINGULAR

# 7 NOT //. is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and this negative means you will. NEVER SIN EVER AGAIN !!

Is this what b you are trusting ??

And I do believe is OSAS and can show you. where saved believers has sinned and Christ has put. this person too death

in 1. Cor 5:1-5 is just one instant. !!

dan p

 

[eleos1954]

Ok, good. Wait a second while I look for the Scriptures that say our sins are blotted out. OK, here they are...

• Neh 4:5 - Do not cover their iniquity, and do not let their sin be blotted out from before You; for they have provoked You to anger before the builders.
• Ps 51:1 - Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions.
• Ps 51:9 - Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities.
• Ps 109:14 - Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord, And let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
• Isa 43:25 - “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins.
• Isa 44:22 - I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
• Jer 18:23 - Yet, Lord, You know all their counsel Which is against me, to slay me. Provide no atonement for their iniquity, Nor blot out their sin from Your sight; But let them be overthrown before You. Deal thus with them In the time of Your anger.
• Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

So, it seems you are right. The only way for a person to avoid being blotted out of the book of life is for his sins/transgressions/iniquities to be blotted out before the blotting out of names begins. I don't think any of this supports your argument against the idea that all a person's sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven (blotted out) at the moment he puts his trust in Christ.

Edit: Oops, I left out some words that changed my intended meaning. Fixed now!!!

the blotting out of sins is completed at the close of probation, just before the Second Coming of Jesus. For the repentant, this final, irreversible act expunges the record of their sins from the books of heaven.

When a person confesses their sins and accepts Christ's sacrifice, their sins are forgiven and recorded in the heavenly books. At this point, the repentant sinner is pardoned, but their sins have not yet been "blotted out".

Everyone is in decision mode until Michael (Jesus) stands up ... all have made their choices .... all judgement for eternity has been made.

Daniel 12:1
King James Version​

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 12&version=KJV
When Christ/Michael stands up, judgment concludes. At that moment, everyone's fate is sealed for eternity, and the opportunity for salvation ends for the entire world.

• The righteous are declared eternally righteous.
• The wicked are declared eternally wicked.

• The time of trouble begins: The period after the close of probation is known as the "time of Jacob's trouble," when the righteous will face intense persecution and struggle, relying solely on their relationship with God. Despite the turmoil, they will not be forsaken.
• 
  
• Deliverance at Christ's Second Coming: The "time of trouble" culminates in the second coming of Christ, who then delivers His people and ushers in the final destruction of the wicked.
• 
  
• The close of probation: When Christ/Michael stands up, the investigative judgment concludes. At that moment, everyone's fate is sealed for eternity, and the opportunity for salvation ends for the entire world.
  • The righteous are declared eternally righteous.
  • The wicked are declared eternally wicked.
• The "Loud Cry" and plagues: The moment Christ/Michael stands up is not immediately known to the inhabitants of the earth. Religious forms may continue, but the Holy Spirit's restraining influence is withdrawn. This is followed by the "Loud Cry" of the final gospel message and the pouring out of the seven last plagues upon the unrepentant.
• 
  
• The time of trouble: The period after the close of probation is known as the "time of Jacob's trouble," when the righteous will face intense persecution and struggle, relying solely on their relationship with God. Despite the turmoil, they will not be forsaken.
• 
  
• Deliverance at Christ's Second Coming: The "time of trouble" culminates in the second coming of Christ, who then delivers His people and ushers in the final destruction of the wicked.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

the blotting out of sins is completed at the close of probation, just before the Second Coming of Jesus. For the repentant, this final, irreversible act expunges the record of their sins from the books of heaven.

When a person confesses their sins and accepts Christ's sacrifice, their sins are forgiven and recorded in the heavenly books. At this point, the repentant sinner is pardoned, but their sins have not yet been "blotted out".

Everyone is in decision mode until Michael (Jesus) stands up ... all have made their choices .... all judgement for eternity has been made.

Like I said before, none of this contradicts the doctrine of eternal security.

 

[tdidymas]

Salvation requires faith, yes I agree.

But for how long must I show faith then, or how much? Is there a minimum amount of time for that? And what must I also do to be saved? How many good deeds would equate to salvation? Is there a list of deeds or a scale to weigh them? If I sin do some of my good deeds get erased? Do I need to start over again? Did the thief on the cross manage to do enough deeds while he was on the cross? Or was he awarded good deeds from his time before the cross? This is really confusing. Which is why it's just not true.

Not everyone believes right away, leading to salvation. Not everyone that hears the gospel, immediately gets saved.

Example#1 For instance, if I invite someone to church that has never heard the gospel. I would not expect that person to immediately believe everything the pastor told them. It will probably take a few visits to comprehend the gospel, and allow the person to realize that they are in danger of hell fire, and that they are walking on thin ice between this world and the one to come. That if they were to die in their sins, they would definitely go to hell.

Example #2 Next take a person that's swimming on the beach and gets taken out to see in a riptide. How long do you think it would take that person to call out in Jesus name to be saved? Probably not as long as the person voluntarily going to church.

Example#3 The thief on the cross.

Examples 2&3 show an immediate need and desire for a savior. Example #1 This person might attend church because of the social club the church has to offer. Or, maybe they like the worship band. Or, maybe they joined a church offering the prosperity gospel and they believe Jesus grants wishes.


If a person genuinely believes, God will put His spirit in him:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

And He will keeps us:

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Sorry about jumping into the middle of a conversation, I'm trying to answer the OP.

OSAS is true only for those who believe in Jesus and have a repentant attitude. Of course, it depends on what is meant by "believe." If a person does not have a repentant attitude, it is doubtful they believe in Jesus the way the NT calls for. When Paul says we are justified by faith, he is talking about a sincere faith, wherein one trusts fully in Christ enough to do all He commands. If a person claims to believe just to have a "get out of hell free" card in his back pocket, they aren't a believer nor are they born again. Jesus said, "by their fruit you shall know them."

It's true also that sin is deceitful, and a believer can backslide. But then according to Heb. 12, God will scourge them because He loves them as His own child. If there is no scourging, and backsliding continues until death, that person is likely "illegitimate" and not born again, according to Heb. 12 and 1 Jn. 2:19.

So then, when John says in 1 Jn. 5:1, "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God," he is talking about NT faith which trusts in Christ for deliverance from sin and empowerment to love God and one's neighbor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, but it does take knowledge of scripture.

 

[Guojing]

If a person who has genuinely believed in Jesus deliberately rejects their faith and walks away from Christ, they are no longer saved.

If a non-believer "deliberately rejects Satan and walks away from Satan", are they still unsaved?

 

[eleos1954]

A non-believer who only rejects Satan but does not accept Jesus Christ is still considered unsaved. While walking away from evil is a positive step, it is not sufficient for salvation on its own, because salvation is a free gift received only through faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

Salvation is by God's grace alone, received through faith in Jesus Christ. Rejecting Satan is part of turning away from sin, but it is not the act that saves. The gift of righteousness comes from Jesus, not from any human action, and it must be actively accepted.

A believer can choose to walk away from God as well ... God don't force himself on anyone.
While God desires all to be saved, He respects free will and will not force anyone to follow Him. A person must make the conscious choice to accept Jesus as their Savior. Simply refusing to follow one path (Satan) does not automatically mean choosing the correct and only alternative (Jesus).