OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

justbyfaith said:

@EmSw, the point you need to understand is that no one is able to keep the commandments apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

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If you don't keep the commandments, you don't know Jesus, you are a liar, and the truth isn't in you, according to John. Besides, what kind of testimony do you have to unbelievers if you don't keep His commandments? Jesus said if you don't keep His commandments, you don't love Him. If you don't keep His commandments, why should I believe you?

If a man can't keep His commandments, Jesus told us the biggest deception in the history of mankind.

justbyfaith said:

If you are going to enter into life by keeping the commandments, you must enter in by keeping all of them perfectly from conception into eternity.

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Here we go again with that keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. We are never told to keep them 'perfectly'. Jesus didn't say if you want to enter life, keep the commandments 'perfectly'.

Look, if you don't keep His commandments, that's fine, but don't come on here and tell others they can't, or that they must keep them 'perfectly'.

justbyfaith said:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith; but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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justbyfaith said:

Galatians 3:10-14.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10.

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By your own words, you are cursed. Why don't you just believe Jesus and keep His commandments?

justbyfaith said:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48.

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Now you want to take Jesus' words out of context. This has nothing to do with keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. You do know the difference between an adverb and an adjective, right?

justbyfaith said:

Now in the latter part of the first scripture, we find that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We cannot be obedient to the law apart from being filled with the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 64:6). Apart from Christ, all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.

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Then why aren't you keeping His commandments? You do have the HS, right? Why aren't you obedient to your Savior?

justbyfaith said:

In Christ, we find that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5). And that love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

However, before you come to faith in Christ you do not have that love; everything in you is motivated by a basic selfishness (see Jeremiah 17:9). And if you are going to receive the Holy Ghost, you must be forgiven of that selfishness. The Holy Ghost will not come to dwell in an unholy vessel; which is any vessel that is not redeemed through the blood of Christ.

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Then what is your excuse for not keeping His commandments?

justbyfaith said:

If you are going to avoid the penalty that the law brings, you must be forgiven through the blood of Christ. Doing good works in your life will not erase the evil things you did apart from faith in Jesus Christ. Those evil deeds can only be blotted out through the forgiveness that comes through what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

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Forgiveness comes from repentance. When forgiven, you don't keep doing evil deeds.

Acts 26:20
but declared both to them of Damascus first, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judaea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

jamesbond007 said:

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

is one of the verses, I had to investigate.

It points to doing the will of God the Father. This means works. And it doesn't mean works to prop up oneself or make a gaudy showing to others that one is an awesome person. Later, we find that one's works will be put through the trial by fire.

I think this is closely tied with
Matthew 7:13
"13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and hthe way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

The narrow gate is one where one has to go single-file and leave one's belongings behind. While the wide gate is wide, so that groups of peoples can enter.

I don't mean to make it sound like drudgery, but to make it sound not as easy as just talking the talk. It isn't easy to change one's sinful ways especially if it has become habit. However, with faith in Jesus and the help of the strength of the Holy Spirit, one can overcome their faults, weaknesses and sins such as alcoholism or drug addiction, sexual immorality, criminal conduct, lying, cheating, stealing or even believing in an errant OSAS. Isn't that what we talk about when we talk about our faith and religion?

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You are correct. Religion and faith is of life. A man who doesn't keep His commandments, doesn't know Jesus. John calls this person a liar and the truth is not in him.

justbyfaith said:

Since we are sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ, the only thing that would take us out from being sons is if we were to abandon faith in Jesus Christ.

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The born again believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit that takes up residence within. God promises that no one will take such out of His hand. Jesus said we must be born again. How can one then be un-born? If we are a new creation, how can we then devolve into an old creation once again? Does the Holy Spirit abandon us due to continuing sin or a period of unbelief/doubt? Perhaps more likely is that those who walk away completely never had a true rebirth? Maybe, this is why the Lord tells so many supposed Christians at the judgement to depart from Him, He never knew them. Interestingly, it says never knew, not once knew or that they had walked away from what they once had.

justbyfaith said:

Because those who fall away completely from the faith are not still saved. That is a given, since we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). Therefore if we abandon or lose faith, we no longer have access to grace, and since grace is what saves us, we would no longer be saved by grace, if we lost access to grace because of abandoning or losing faith.

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Please elaborate on what it means to lose faith. Many believers go through tremendous hardship in their lives and with it, struggles with their faith. Others wrestle with doubts. Still others seek after themselves for some time. At what point does God stop disciplinary action to bring a believer back, and just move on to abandoning him?

justbyfaith said:

I don't think that thinking a wicked thought at the end of your life would place you outside the kingdom; but if that were the case (which there is a possibility that it might be), the seal of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) would keep us from thinking such a wicked thought. If we are born again, we are new creatures in Christ: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

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This is what I mean. You aren’t sure if even a sinful thought might be enough to separate you from entering God’s kingdom. As Christians still wrestle with sin daily, how can we say the Holy Spirit will prevent us from even a sinful thought? Does the Holy Spirit prevent us from sinning?

justbyfaith said:

We can avoid the legalism you are speaking of by keeping our focus on Christ; and by understanding that He is the reason we are made holy, and not a legalistic observance of laws and requirements. We are sanctified by relationship (2 Corinthians 3:18) not by legalistic observance of the requirement.

And, we are justified by faith in Christ: and therefore if we perform some ungodly action but retain faith in Christ (this is somewhat hypothetical), we are still justified through faith in Christ (Romans 4:5).

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I see no way to avoid legalism if we are without any assurance of salvation due to sin. If we are justified by faith, how can we then be kept justified by works? Justification is a single event, sanctification is ongoing. Justification is how God makes us His children, sanctification is how He matures us for His good work.

To believe in the loss of salvation in the scenario given above, one either needs to believe justification and rebirth has to happen after repentance of every sin, or one has to fail to understand the severity and broad scope of what God defines as sin, and as such, believe that some sins count toward a loss of salvation and others don’t. Barring those two options, there are some who do actually seem to believe that they don’t sin at all, so I guess there is that as well.

GodsGrace101 said:

Agreed. But how does one know which internet teaching is correct?

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We get many conflicting teachings from the Bible that it's enough to make one's head spin. We get this is an individual teaching, so it doesn't fit to groups. This one is a group teaching, so it fits when speaking to groups but not to an individual. This one is a RCC teaching, so automatically it is wrong or the work of the devil. This is a Protestant teaching that isn't our own, so it is wrong. OSAS is the work of the devil in some cases. This one is to not go the way of Jewish teaching. And yet, the Bible is complete, inerrant, accurate, authoritative and true.

I think the one who provides the answers is the Holy Spirit . I suppose we get conflicting teachings because of different circumstances and different peoples. One size does not fit all. Even Jesus did not think he himself was perfect. This is what made him perfect.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Do the opposite of everything he says and you will be fine

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Heh. Don't do the opposite of what Jesus said. In the end, we'll all get what we get, so don't throw a fit.

jamesbond007 said:

I do believe that you aren't correct and have fallen for gnosticism. And it does matter how we live because you have no reply for the mockery being made of OSAS beliefs. You have no reply for the grave sins people commit even after turning to Jesus. A real believer in Jesus would not commit these sins or if he does, then he/she will atone for it. If one continues to live sinful lives, then it means that they haven't truly, truly given themselves to our Lord Jesus Christ. It means they've deceived ourselves into thinking they are saved when they aren't. Using Sola Scriptura,

James 2:26 “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” Spiritually dead means one is not saved.

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Thank you for your opinion. It is as your theology, read, and then rejected and forgotten.

You my friend are Biblically incorrect and it seems to me that you are propagating Catholic theology of TRADITIONS in disguise.

Major1 said:

Thank you for your opinion. It is as your theology, read, and then rejected and forgotten.

You my friend are Biblically incorrect and it seems to me that you are propagating Catholic theology of TRADITIONS in disguise.

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This is all too common, sadly. The leaven of Catholicism has infiltrated nearly every church denomination in some way.

jamesbond007 said:

We get many conflicting teachings from the Bible that it's enough to make one's head spin. We get this is an individual teaching, so it doesn't fit to groups. This one is a group teaching, so it fits when speaking to groups but not to an individual. This one is a RCC teaching, so automatically it is wrong or the work of the devil. This is a Protestant teaching that isn't our own, so it is wrong. OSAS is the work of the devil in some cases. This one is to not go the way of Jewish teaching. And yet, the Bible is complete, inerrant, accurate, authoritative and true.

I think the one who provides the answers is the Holy Spirit . I suppose we get conflicting teachings because of different circumstances and different peoples. One size does not fit all. Even Jesus did not think he himself was perfect. This is what made him perfect.

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Wait...."even Jesus did not think He Himself was perfect"? Surely you realize this is false. Jesus knew/knows precisely Who He is.

jamesbond007 said:

We get many conflicting teachings from the Bible that it's enough to make one's head spin. We get this is an individual teaching, so it doesn't fit to groups. This one is a group teaching, so it fits when speaking to groups but not to an individual. This one is a RCC teaching, so automatically it is wrong or the work of the devil. This is a Protestant teaching that isn't our own, so it is wrong. OSAS is the work of the devil in some cases. This one is to not go the way of Jewish teaching. And yet, the Bible is complete, inerrant, accurate, authoritative and true.

I think the one who provides the answers is the Holy Spirit . I suppose we get conflicting teachings because of different circumstances and different peoples. One size does not fit all. Even Jesus did not think he himself was perfect. This is what made him perfect.

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Yu said...………
"Even Jesus did not think he himself was perfect.?

But wasn’t Jesus perfect when he was born in the manger?
And didn’t he live a sinless life?
Wasn’t his death the death of an innocent man?
Yes.

To say and think that Jesus did not believe He was perfect is to in essence say that HE had to DO SOMETHING to be Perfect. THAT IS HERESY!!!!!

From the Word of God, Jesus knew that He was the PERFECT Son of God?
The Scriptures say that the Son knew from eternity past who He was and what His earthly work was to be.

Colossians 2:9
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form".

Colossians 1:16...…….
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

John 14:1...……….
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.".

John 1:1-3....…..
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Jesus fully realized who He was, expressing it this way in John 8:58...…
“Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!”

EmSw said:

How about one from the Savior Himself?

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And follow that up with these passages.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Do you notice what all these passages have in common?

John tells us that if a person says he knows Jesus and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. That's a very strong statement. A person who does not keep His commandments does not know Him, is a liar, and the truth is not in him will not enter eternal life. Unless of course, he goes up another way.

Have at it. Take these passages and tell us we are not to keep His commandments. Show us passages which tell us we do not have to obey Jesus and keep our salvation.

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You see the problem here. I asked you for ONE so that we could debate it carefully and correctly and you post TEN (10). WHY?
You see, such a long list means a long response and most people (ME) do not like long posts.

Matthew 19:17​

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."​

Of course the CONTEXT always provides us with the correct meaning and exegesis.​

The CONTEXT in thee is verse is that Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test. He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments and therefore CAN NOT BE used to validate WORKS with salvation. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.​

John 14:15​

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

​

Again....CONTEXT!​

If you read John 14:15 in context, you will see that on this occasion Jesus is referring to two specific commands. Here’s they are that YOU demand we do...……….
John 13:34....…...
“A new command I give you: Love one another….”.

And here’s the second:
John 14:1 & 11...….
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me… Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves”.

I agree with Jesus!!!! AGAIN we see that this verse does not demand salvation is by keeping the commandments but out of love for Jesus we will want to LOVE ONE ANOTHER and BELIEVE IN GOD!

John 14:21​

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

​

Same as John 14:15.​

​

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

​

Same as John 14:15.​

​

John 15:10​

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

​

Same as John 14:15.​

​

1 Corinthians 7:19​

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.​

Under law, this is a nonsensical statement. It’s like saying it doesn’t matter if you drive drunk, as long as you don’t drive drunk. Do you see? If the first part is true (the command doesn’t matter), then second part cannot be (it does matter).

Keep in mind that this verse was written by an expert in the law. Paul knew the law inside and out. He knew that you cannot pick and choose the rules, that you must obey them all (Gal 3:10). So why does he confuse us with this contradictory statement?

If you believe you must keep the commands of God, this verse will sabotage your command-keeping efforts. It will defeat you. The only way this passage makes sense is if you filter it through the finished work of the cross, and understand that “Christ is the culmination of the law” (Rom 10:4).

Circumcision – a shadow
The law – a shadow
Christ – the reality

1 John 2:4​

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

​

The word "know" in the Bible often times means a deeper and more intimate, and loving relationship with a person. For example, the Bilbe often speaks of a man "Knowing" his wife. Here it is referring to an intimate relationship. Or, when the Bible talks about God's "foreknowledge", it is always talking about his love for those that he foreknew.

So, I believe that in the context of the verse that you quote, the word "know" is referring to loving Jesus. Jesus said in John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."​

A person who loves Christ, will try to live by Christ's commandments. Yes, we all fall short of the Glory of God, but when we confess or sins he is faithful to forgive us.

TRYING to and having to keep the commandments in order to be save are two very different things.​

​

1 John 3:24​

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.​

​

Same as John 14:15.​

​

1 John 5:2​

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.​

Same as John 14:15.​

Same as John 14:15.​

​

​

GodsGrace101 said:

Jesus says those that did good deeds will go to eternal life and those that did evil deeds to condemnation. It seems to me that Jesus knew what He was talking about,,,
John 5:28-29
Luke 17:10

As to the atonement...being saved from the wrath of God is the Penal Substitution theory.

I like the Christus Victor myself..I understand it to be in these verses:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

I believe Jesus died to save us from sin and death.

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John 5:29 tells us that there will be TWO resurrections. The 1st is the resurrection of LIFE and it includes ALL believers.

The 2nd is the resurrection of judgment and it will be for ALL unbelievers of all the ages and will be at the end of the Millennium.

ALL of the unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire and ALL believers will be in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride of Christ or New Jerusalem.

Therefore IMO understanding, we as believers in Christ are SAVED from the judgment of God which is the Lake of Fire and it is according to the Scripture the 2nd DEATH.

jamesbond007 said:

We get many conflicting teachings from the Bible that it's enough to make one's head spin. We get this is an individual teaching, so it doesn't fit to groups. This one is a group teaching, so it fits when speaking to groups but not to an individual. This one is a RCC teaching, so automatically it is wrong or the work of the devil. This is a Protestant teaching that isn't our own, so it is wrong. OSAS is the work of the devil in some cases. This one is to not go the way of Jewish teaching. And yet, the Bible is complete, inerrant, accurate, authoritative and true.

I think the one who provides the answers is the Holy Spirit . I suppose we get conflicting teachings because of different circumstances and different peoples. One size does not fit all. Even Jesus did not think he himself was perfect. This is what made him perfect.

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There are some concepts in the bible which could be debated.
For instance, what is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 speaking about?

But most of the bible cannot be interpreted by us individually. We just don't know enough. We need to go to a church that we feel we could live with and that we agree with on the basic, fundamental doctrine. Then, we kind of have to trust that church with how its theologians understand each verse.

This does not mean we'll agree with everything, however, we also won't get some pretty funny ideas that I read on these forums, not necessarily this one, and that make me wonder where they come from.

We also have to know Jesus in a loving way and understand what He would or would not approve of.

The problem is that man always messes things up,,,even spiritual things.

GodsGrace101 said:

LOL
Actually, faith could be a noun or a verb.
Faith requires action.
If we believe the escalator will take us UP,
we have to GET ON IT, or our faith is useless. Just like James said.

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SAVING FAITH is a noun because it is something that God gives TO YOU as the way of being saved and nothing you do (Active) to be saved..

Ephesians 2:8-9 is the validation...……
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".

Following the rules or legalism or keeping commandments has nothing to do with a relationship with God.

The most wicked person to have ever lived could be the best rule keeper and still bust hell wide open because he did not have SAVING FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Would you agree that The law causes to us think in nouns???????

If we EXPECT something by following the rules then that expectation requires that tasks must be performed. That is what MR. Bond is saying and unfortunately you agree with him.

I can not do that. You see I do not believe that is what God wants us to do. That alone would completely destroy the free gift of FAITH that God gives us. God IMO wants us to be saved anddoes NOT want us to be a prisoner to rules and legalism. Where is the peace and joy and safety of salvation in that kind of thinking??????

What Mr. Bond is teaching is in fact Catholic Traditions which have NO validation in the Bible whatsoever and what they lead to is a salvation based on personal performance.
In other words, what YOU do becomes the measuring stick for righteousness INSTEAD OF WHAT JESUS CHRSIT DID FOR YOU.

I encourage you to re-think your position and agreement with something that is completely non-Biblical.

If you do and still come to the same conclusion then there would nothing else I could say to you that would be on any help to you.

GodsGrace101 said:

There are some concepts in the bible which could be debated.
For instance, what is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 speaking about?

But most of the bible cannot be interpreted by us individually. We just don't know enough. We need to go to a church that we feel we could live with and that we agree with on the basic, fundamental doctrine. Then, we kind of have to trust that church with how its theologians understand each verse.

This does not mean we'll agree with everything, however, we also won't get some pretty funny ideas that I read on these forums, not necessarily this one, and that make me wonder where they come from.

We also have to know Jesus in a loving way and understand what He would or would not approve of.

The problem is that man always messes things up,,,even spiritual things.

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Actually the passage you posted is not debatable at all IMO. When the read the Scriptures in whole and contextually we can see that 1 Corth. 3:11-15 is referring to the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST as listed in the Revelation chapter 20.

The works mentioned in 1 Corth. have nothing to do with EARNING or LOSING ones salvation at all. The REWARDS or loss of such, pertain only to Christians.

The suffering of "LOSS" is not about salvation but of losing a REWARD.

InterestedApologist said:

The born again believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit that takes up residence within. God promises that no one will take such out of His hand. Jesus said we must be born again. How can one then be un-born? If we are a new creation, how can we then devolve into an old creation once again? Does the Holy Spirit abandon us due to continuing sin or a period of unbelief/doubt? Perhaps more likely is that those who walk away completely never had a true rebirth? Maybe, this is why the Lord tells so many supposed Christians at the judgement to depart from Him, He never knew them. Interestingly, it says never knew, not once knew or that they had walked away from what they once had.



Please elaborate on what it means to lose faith. Many believers go through tremendous hardship in their lives and with it, struggles with their faith. Others wrestle with doubts. Still others seek after themselves for some time. At what point does God stop disciplinary action to bring a believer back, and just move on to abandoning him?

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Luke 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This is what I mean. You aren’t sure if even a sinful thought might be enough to separate you from entering God’s kingdom. As Christians still wrestle with sin daily, how can we say the Holy Spirit will prevent us from even a sinful thought? Does the Holy Spirit prevent us from sinning?

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He does in my life.

I see no way to avoid legalism if we are without any assurance of salvation due to sin. If we are justified by faith, how can we then be kept justified by works? Justification is a single event, sanctification is ongoing. Justification is how God makes us His children, sanctification is how He matures us for His good work.

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We continue to be justified and sanctified, and kept, through faith. See 1 Peter 1:3-7, 1 John 5:18.

To believe in the loss of salvation in the scenario given above, one either needs to believe justification and rebirth has to happen after repentance of every sin, or one has to fail to understand the severity and broad scope of what God defines as sin, and as such, believe that some sins count toward a loss of salvation and others don’t. Barring those two options, there are some who do actually seem to believe that they don’t sin at all, so I guess there is that as well.

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Yes, salvation comes after we repent of all the sins we hold dear to us. And also, in 1 John 5:17, there is a sin not unto death; while according to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.

jamesbond007 said:

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

is one of the verses, I had to investigate.

It points to doing the will of God the Father. This means works. And it doesn't mean works to prop up oneself or make a gaudy showing to others that one is an awesome person. Later, we find that one's works will be put through the trial by fire.

I think this is closely tied with
Matthew 7:13
"13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and hthe way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

The narrow gate is one where one has to go single-file and leave one's belongings behind. While the wide gate is wide, so that groups of peoples can enter.

I don't mean to make it sound like drudgery, but to make it sound not as easy as just talking the talk. It isn't easy to change one's sinful ways especially if it has become habit. However, with faith in Jesus and the help of the strength of the Holy Spirit, one can overcome their faults, weaknesses and sins such as alcoholism or drug addiction, sexual immorality, criminal conduct, lying, cheating, stealing or even believing in an errant OSAS. Isn't that what we talk about when we talk about our faith and religion?

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On "the will of the Father:

John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

EmSw said:

If you don't keep the commandments, you don't know Jesus, you are a liar, and the truth isn't in you, according to John. Besides, what kind of testimony do you have to unbelievers if you don't keep His commandments? Jesus said if you don't keep His commandments, you don't love Him. If you don't keep His commandments, why should I believe you?

If a man can't keep His commandments, Jesus told us the biggest deception in the history of mankind.



Here we go again with that keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. We are never told to keep them 'perfectly'. Jesus didn't say if you want to enter life, keep the commandments 'perfectly'.

Look, if you don't keep His commandments, that's fine, but don't come on here and tell others they can't, or that they must keep them 'perfectly'.

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Do you keep His commandments perfectly? What I am saying is that if you are going to enter in by keeping His commandments, perfection is the only way. Because you are not forgiven by the blood of Christ, if you have not put your hope in the blood of Christ; and therefore the sins you have committed, in that you have not been perfect, will condemn you on the day of judgment.

By your own words, you are cursed. Why don't you just believe Jesus and keep His commandments?

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By my own words (which I quoted from Galatians 3:10-14) I am not cursed. For I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ, who became a curse for me that the blessing of Abraham might come upon me.

Now you want to take Jesus' words out of context. This has nothing to do with keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. You do know the difference between an adverb and an adjective, right?

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They are not taken out of context. Here is a question for you: do you keep Jesus' commandment to love your enemies perfectly?

Then why aren't you keeping His commandments? You do have the HS, right? Why aren't you obedient to your Savior?

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Is my life on television as the whole show on a single cable channel, that you know what my whole life is, that you would know whether or not I keep His commandments? Why aren't you keeping His commandments?

Then what is your excuse for not keeping His commandments?

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I don't make excuses. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

Forgiveness comes from repentance. When forgiven, you don't keep doing evil deeds.

Acts 26:20
but declared both to them of Damascus first, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judaea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

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This is true. We do not get forgiven unless we repent. However, if we take faith in the finished work of the Cross out of the equation of what repentance is, we are NOT forgiven; we have not done everything that is necessary to receive forgiveness. When the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, "What must I do to be saved?" their reply was, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household." (Acts of the Apostles 16:27-31). And we are justified (forgiven and declared righteous) through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9, Romans 3:25). Without the element of the blood of Christ, you can repent all you want and it will avail you nothing. Turning over a new leaf will not save anyone. It is only through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father, except through me." (John 14:6). He also said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man shall enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:7-9).

jamesbond007 said:

I do believe that you aren't correct and have fallen for gnosticism. And it does matter how we live because you have no reply for the mockery being made of OSAS beliefs. You have no reply for the grave sins people commit even after turning to Jesus. A real believer in Jesus would not commit these sins or if he does, then he/she will atone for it. If one continues to live sinful lives, then it means that they haven't truly, truly given themselves to our Lord Jesus Christ. It means they've deceived ourselves into thinking they are saved when they aren't. Using Sola Scriptura,

James 2:26 “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” Spiritually dead means one is not saved.

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It isn't gnosticism to believe that we do not redeem our own sins but that this is a work done by our Lord through His blood and through the power of the Holy Ghost (for example, see Philippians 2:13, and/or Matthew 1:21).

Yes, faith without works is dead; however, salvation is by a living faith alone. The works in the equation do not have saving power but they are always the result of a bona fide and genuine faith.

Major1 said:

You see the problem here. I asked you for ONE so that we could debate it carefully and correctly and you post TEN (10). WHY?
You see, such a long list means a long response and most people (ME) do not like long posts.

Matthew 19:17
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Of course the CONTEXT always provides us with the correct meaning and exegesis. ​

The CONTEXT in thee is verse is that Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test. He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments and therefore CAN NOT BE used to validate WORKS with salvation. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.​

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

Again....CONTEXT!​

If you read John 14:15 in context, you will see that on this occasion Jesus is referring to two specific commands. Here’s they are that YOU demand we do...……….
John 13:34....…...
“A new command I give you: Love one another….”.

And here’s the second:
John 14:1 & 11...….
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me… Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves”.

I agree with Jesus!!!! AGAIN we see that this verse does not demand salvation is by keeping the commandments but out of love for Jesus we will want to LOVE ONE ANOTHER and BELIEVE IN GOD!

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Same as John 14:15.​

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

Same as John 14:15.​

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John 15:10​

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

Same as John 14:15.​

1 Corinthians 7:19​

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.​

Under law, this is a nonsensical statement. It’s like saying it doesn’t matter if you drive drunk, as long as you don’t drive drunk. Do you see? If the first part is true (the command doesn’t matter), then second part cannot be (it does matter).

Keep in mind that this verse was written by an expert in the law. Paul knew the law inside and out. He knew that you cannot pick and choose the rules, that you must obey them all (Gal 3:10). So why does he confuse us with this contradictory statement?

If you believe you must keep the commands of God, this verse will sabotage your command-keeping efforts. It will defeat you. The only way this passage makes sense is if you filter it through the finished work of the cross, and understand that “Christ is the culmination of the law” (Rom 10:4).

Circumcision – a shadow
The law – a shadow
Christ – the reality

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

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The word "know" in the Bible often times means a deeper and more intimate, and loving relationship with a person. For example, the Bilbe often speaks of a man "Knowing" his wife. Here it is referring to an intimate relationship. Or, when the Bible talks about God's "foreknowledge", it is always talking about his love for those that he foreknew.

So, I believe that in the context of the verse that you quote, the word "know" is referring to loving Jesus. Jesus said in John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." ​

A person who loves Christ, will try to live by Christ's commandments. Yes, we all fall short of the Glory of God, but when we confess or sins he is faithful to forgive us.​

TRYING to and having to keep the commandments in order to be save are two very different things.​

1 John 3:24​

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.​

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Same as John 14:15.​

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1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
Same as John 14:15.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Same as John 14:15.​

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Ten witnesses are more powerful than one.

So tell us, why would one not want to keep His commandments. How do you prove you love Him? How do you prove you know Him? If you say you know Him (using whatever definition of know you want), and do not keep His commandments, John calls you a liar, and you have no truth in you.

So please tell us why keeping His commandments is not important to salvation.

Major1 said:

John 5:29 tells us that there will be TWO resurrections. The 1st is the resurrection of LIFE and it includes ALL believers.

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Jesus did not say it includes all 'believers'. Why do you want to add to what Jesus said? He said those who do good are included in the resurrection of life.

Major1 said:

The 2nd is the resurrection of judgment and it will be for ALL unbelievers of all the ages and will be at the end of the Millennium.

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Again, you added to what Jesus said. He did not say the second resurrection includes all unbelievers. He said it includes all who do evil.

Major1 said:

ALL of the unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire and ALL believers will be in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride of Christ or New Jerusalem.

Therefore IMO understanding, we as believers in Christ are SAVED from the judgment of God which is the Lake of Fire and it is according to the Scripture the 2nd DEATH.

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You have added to what Jesus said, and then run with it. You better pay attention to what Jesus said. He said those who do good will come forth at the first resurrection, and those who do evil will come forth at the resurrection of damnation. You can play games with us all you want, but your games will not be of any good before Jesus.