OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Major1 said:
I must disagree with all due respect. What I posted is NOT a "theory".

It is straight out of the Word of God and the Biblical fact is that Substitutionary Atonement goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Genesis 3:21.…………
"The Lord God made garments OF SKIN for Adam and his wife and clothed them."

God killed a SACRIFICAL ANIMAL instead of Adam and Eve and cover their sin with the skins of those animals. The BLOOD of the animals was shed to spiritual save Adam and Eve as they had died spiritual the second they disobeyed God.

OK.
But there are at least 7 theories that I can think of. 3 that I know pretty well and they're all biblical with verses.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Major1 said:
Surely, with all respect to you, realize that what you said is incorrect.

Mr. Bond said what he said and that really does not have to be explained. It is what it is.

In comment #668, the actual words he said were...……….
""To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins'

He just said "doing works" IS NEEDED in order to be saved because repenting is not enough...…….....and you agreed with that comment!!!!!!!!

He then said that "Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins".
And YOU are agreeing with that as well!!!!!

NONE of that says anything about AFTER SALVATION WHATSOEVER my dear sister.

I guess I have read more posts than you have read sister because I HAVE responded to many, many post which argued that WORKS is need for salvation.

It's correct that works are needed after salvation.
I don't know anyone that believes works bring us to salvation.
This concept is not known in any church I know of, not even the RCC.

We are saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

We will do the works of God after salvation.
Ephesians 2:10

Works of self-righteousness or of the law will not save anyone.
God wants our heart.
Ezekiel 36:26

God never said He was abolishing the law, He said He was putting it in our heart. For this to happen we must be born from above.
John 3:3
Jeremiah 31:33

Major1 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
OK.
But there are at least 7 theories that I can think of. 3 that I know pretty well and they're all biblical with verses.

I think that it would be more appropriate to say that there are at least 7 "Denominational explanations" of Substitionary atonement.

The differences are expressed in the creedal and doctrinal statements of the various denominations and adherence to one theory or another is often a sign of ones theological allegiance.

Major1 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
It's correct that works are needed after salvation.
I don't know anyone that believes works bring us to salvation.
This concept is not known in any church I know of, not even the RCC.

We are saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

We will do the works of God after salvation.
Ephesians 2:10

Works of self-righteousness or of the law will not save anyone.
God wants our heart.
Ezekiel 36:26

God never said He was abolishing the law, He said He was putting it in our heart. For this to happen we must be born from above.
John 3:3
Jeremiah 31:33

Mr. JamesBond said...………….
""To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works."

Now you know ONE!

InterestedApologist · Jun 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The prodigal is said to have been dead and lost while he was away from his father.

True. Yet, it never says he was disowned or was not his son. The father could have honored his request and made him a servant, but instead, he restores him to honored son status. I see your point, but at the same time, there is nothing to say that had the son died during his sojourn away, that he would have died fatherless, unless this is somehow culturally understood from that time. I don’t know that this parable really answers anything specifically about OSAS except that it affirms God’s desire to forgive and restore His children when they stumble and fall.

justbyfaith said:
And I would say that the proper attitude, concerning the other thing, is not to ask, what will it take for me to lose my salvation; but rather to seek to be as close to the center of the Lord's will as possible.

I agree about having the proper attitude, but it is a mistake to assume that these questions are asked to see how far we can go and still be saved. The ambiguities I pointed out amongst Armenians are clearly cause for concern to the believer as well. There can be no true assurance of salvation under this system, as a lifetime’s worth of faith could be blotted out by a single wicked thought prior to death. Also, this can lead to serious legalism through fear of the aforementioned scenario.

I would love some clarity on the matter, or at least some sort of standard.

Major1 · Jun 18, 2018

EmSw said:
So, is my understanding inferior to yours? What makes your understanding superior? Are others in error and you aren't? Is this not boasting?

I have found the book of Ezekiel, for the most part, is not a favorite of OSAS'ers. They don't like that one has to rid themselves of iniquity and do what is lawful and right in order to live.

IF YOUR understanding is different that what the Bible teaches, then YES, your understanding is flawed.

Now let me say this to you, with all due respect and as carful as I can.
There is NO problem with anyone I know of concerning the book of Ezekiel and it being a book in which OSAS people do not like.

It is my observation that YOU like that book because you are using to to propagate YOUR theories which are in fact not Biblical.

There is not ONE SINGLE Scripture in the book of Ezekiel that teaches a man can lose his salvation. Every single verse you can use can be properly understood with the correct context taken into consideration.

What you are doing is simply picking out a Scripture and saying it means this and that to you. That is incorrect Bible study and it always leads to error which is what I am seeing in you.

ANYONE, ME for example can take any Scripture in the Bible and turn it and twist it and spiritualize it to mean what I need for it to me to satisfy my OWN PERSONAL theories. That is what you are doing my dear friend.

Please, please post ONE (1) Scripture from anywhere in the book of Ezekiel which YOU think means that a man can pose his salvation and I will be more than honored to correctly explain it to you.

Then we can do another ONE!

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Major1 said:
I think that we are close, but not quite completely.

To say that we are saved "from the bondage of sin" is correct but not complete.

I stated what the Bible says which was that a man is saved "FROM THE WRATH OF GOD".

Being saved from the "Bondage of sin" is a Temporary position.

The wages of sin is death which is the spiritual Judgement of God on all sinners who reject the Lord Jesus Christ and it ends in separation from God completely.

Life itself is a death sentence and It ends with death. LIFE then begins with Jesus Christ in heaven and because we are saved eternally by Him, we will not be judged for our sin but on the day we stand before Him, we will receive REWARDS and not condemnation.

Jesus says those that did good deeds will go to eternal life and those that did evil deeds to condemnation. It seems to me that Jesus knew what He was talking about,,,
John 5:28-29
Luke 17:10

As to the atonement...being saved from the wrath of God is the Penal Substitution theory.

I like the Christus Victor myself..I understand it to be in these verses:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

I believe Jesus died to save us from sin and death.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Major1 said:
Mr. JamesBond said...………….
""To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works."

Now you know ONE!

LOL
Actually, faith could be a noun or a verb.
Faith requires action.
If we believe the escalator will take us UP,
we have to GET ON IT, or our faith is useless. Just like James said.

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Thanks BB53. You're a nice guy.

I have a daughter that would disagree, but thank you for your kindness....only a nice girl would take the time to post that.....may God bless you richly!

EmSw · Jun 18, 2018

Major1 said:
Please, please post ONE (1) Scripture from anywhere in the book of Ezekiel which YOU think means that a man can pose his salvation and I will be more than honored to correctly explain it to you.

Then we can do another ONE!

How about one from the Savior Himself?

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And follow that up with these passages.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Do you notice what all these passages have in common?

John tells us that if a person says he knows Jesus and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. That's a very strong statement. A person who does not keep His commandments does not know Him, is a liar, and the truth is not in him will not enter eternal life. Unless of course, he goes up another way.

Have at it. Take these passages and tell us we are not to keep His commandments. Show us passages which tell us we do not have to obey Jesus and keep our salvation.

justbyfaith · Jun 18, 2018

@EmSw, the point you need to understand is that no one is able to keep the commandments apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If you are going to enter into life by keeping the commandments, you must enter in by keeping all of them perfectly from conception into eternity.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith; but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:10-14.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48.

Now in the latter part of the first scripture, we find that we receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We cannot be obedient to the law apart from being filled with the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 64:6). Apart from Christ, all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.

In Christ, we find that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5). And that love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

However, before you come to faith in Christ you do not have that love; everything in you is motivated by a basic selfishness (see Jeremiah 17:9). And if you are going to receive the Holy Ghost, you must be forgiven of that selfishness. The Holy Ghost will not come to dwell in an unholy vessel; which is any vessel that is not redeemed through the blood of Christ.

If you are going to avoid the penalty that the law brings, you must be forgiven through the blood of Christ. Doing good works in your life will not erase the evil things you did apart from faith in Jesus Christ. Those evil deeds can only be blotted out through the forgiveness that comes through what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 18, 2018

Paul never kept the commandments......Peter said neither he nor his fathers kept them.....I don’t keep them and neither do you.....What are we to do......it would be “ good news” indeed if God had some kind of way to rescue us other than keeping laws that are impossible to keep....God revealed to Paul some mysteries that no man knew— ever.It was even hidden from Christ’s disciples.If I could ever find a “ loop- hole”, I sure would seize upon it, wouldn’t you? Does such a marvelous rescue exist?

justbyfaith · Jun 18, 2018

InterestedApologist said:
True. Yet, it never says he was disowned or was not his son. The father could have honored his request and made him a servant, but instead, he restores him to honored son status. I see your point, but at the same time, there is nothing to say that had the son died during his sojourn away, that he would have died fatherless, unless this is somehow culturally understood from that time. I don’t know that this parable really answers anything specifically about OSAS except that it affirms God’s desire to forgive and restore His children when they stumble and fall.

I agree about having the proper attitude, but it is a mistake to assume that these questions are asked to see how far we can go and still be saved. The ambiguities I pointed out amongst Armenians are clearly cause for concern to the believer as well. There can be no true assurance of salvation under this system, as a lifetime’s worth of faith could be blotted out by a single wicked thought prior to death. Also, this can lead to serious legalism through fear of the aforementioned scenario.

I would love some clarity on the matter, or at least some sort of standard.

Since we are sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ, the only thing that would take us out from being sons is if we were to abandon faith in Jesus Christ. Because those who fall away completely from the faith are not still saved. That is a given, since we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). Therefore if we abandon or lose faith, we no longer have access to grace, and since grace is what saves us, we would no longer be saved by grace, if we lost access to grace because of abandoning or losing faith.

I don't think that thinking a wicked thought at the end of your life would place you outside the kingdom; but if that were the case (which there is a possibility that it might be), the seal of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) would keep us from thinking such a wicked thought. If we are born again, we are new creatures in Christ: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

We can avoid the legalism you are speaking of by keeping our focus on Christ; and by understanding that He is the reason we are made holy, and not a legalistic observance of laws and requirements. We are sanctified by relationship (2 Corinthians 3:18) not by legalistic observance of the requirement.

And, we are justified by faith in Christ: and therefore if we perform some ungodly action but retain faith in Christ (this is somewhat hypothetical), we are still justified through faith in Christ (Romans 4:5).

justbyfaith · Jun 18, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Paul never kept the commandments......Peter said neither he nor his fathers kept them.....I don’t keep them and neither do you.....What are we to do......it would be “ good news” indeed if God had some kind of way to rescue us other than keeping laws that are impossible to keep....God revealed to Paul some mysteries that no man knew— ever.It was even hidden from Christ’s disciples.If I could ever find a “ loop- hole”, I sure would seize upon it, wouldn’t you? Does such a marvelous rescue exist?

Paul substantiated the epistles of James (Galatians 1:19) and John (2 Timothy 3:16). And in John's epistles, he tells us that it is the love of God to keep His commandments, which are not grievous or burdensome (1 John 5:2-3, 2 John 1:6).

Also, Paul writes to us that the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be (Romans 8:7). And therefore the spiritual mind is subject to the law of God and cannot be otherwise (see also Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Jeremiah 31:33).

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hang on two commandments (Matthew 22:36-40; see also Romans 5:5).

Therefore the more specific commandments are merely the specifics of the love of God. They show us the specific ways that we can behave in love towards God and other people, according to the love that has been placed in our hearts through faith in Jesus Christ.

When believers come face to face with the commandments, we are not unsubject to them in our minds (Romans 8:7); in fact we will be obedient (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

That said, we are not saved through our keeping of the law (see Galatians 2:16 and Romans 3:20); however if we are not obedient to the law when we come across it, this may be a sign to us that we are not born again (Romans 8:7) since obedience to God , including what He has written in His law, is the result of being born again (1 John 3:4-9).

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 18, 2018

Paul’s Gospel, given to him by Jesus, has been guaranteed to save anybody that simply Believes it.After we have been anchored safely,we can turn our attention to sanctification and obedience.Btw, the same Holy Spirit that lead you to believe the saving Gospel , will put His Spirit in you and change you.Sanctification and obedience will follow and God will finish the work that HE started.1cor15:1-4

justbyfaith · Jun 18, 2018

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Paul’s Gospel, given to him by Jesus, has been guaranteed to save anybody that simply Believes it.After we have been anchored safely,we can turn our attention to sanctification and obedience.Btw, the same Holy Spirit that lead you to believe the saving Gospel , will put His Spirit in you and change you.Sanctification and obedience will follow and God will finish the work that HE started.1cor15:1-4

Amen.

justbyfaith · Jun 18, 2018

I would say also that according to Paul, the law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ. See Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:20, and Psalms 19:7. And therefore, for the unbeliever, attempting to earn salvation through obedience to the law is perfectly capable of having the effect of bringing that person to the end of themselves, the moment that they begin to understand that they simply cannot do it in their own strength; and that the first step to gaining power over sin is to be forgiven.

jamesbond007 · Jun 19, 2018

Major1 said:
Sister. Mr Bond said the following...……………

jamesbond007 said: ↑
"To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me."

He just said as I posted for you that "We must redeem our sins".
He just said as I posted for you that "Just believing in Jesus DOES NOT REDEEM OUR SINS".

Are you real sure that you want to say he is 100% correct and agree with his comments???????

I do believe that you aren't correct and have fallen for gnosticism. And it does matter how we live because you have no reply for the mockery being made of OSAS beliefs. You have no reply for the grave sins people commit even after turning to Jesus. A real believer in Jesus would not commit these sins or if he does, then he/she will atone for it. If one continues to live sinful lives, then it means that they haven't truly, truly given themselves to our Lord Jesus Christ. It means they've deceived ourselves into thinking they are saved when they aren't. Using Sola Scriptura,

James 2:26 “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” Spiritually dead means one is not saved.

1stcenturylady · Jun 19, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Jesus says those that did good deeds will go to eternal life and those that did evil deeds to condemnation. It seems to me that Jesus knew what He was talking about,,,
John 5:28-29
Luke 17:10

As to the atonement...being saved from the wrath of God is the Penal Substitution theory.

I like the Christus Victor myself..I understand it to be in these verses:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

I believe Jesus died to save us from sin and death.

Yes, Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. He didn't come to cover our sins while we keep committing them. He gives us His Holy Spirit to give us power over the bondage to sin, making us free. And to whom the Son makes free, is free indeed.

jamesbond007 · Jun 19, 2018

EmSw said:
So, how do you tell true believers?

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

is one of the verses, I had to investigate.

It points to doing the will of God the Father. This means works. And it doesn't mean works to prop up oneself or make a gaudy showing to others that one is an awesome person. Later, we find that one's works will be put through the trial by fire.

I think this is closely tied with
Matthew 7:13
"13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and hthe way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

The narrow gate is one where one has to go single-file and leave one's belongings behind. While the wide gate is wide, so that groups of peoples can enter.

I don't mean to make it sound like drudgery, but to make it sound not as easy as just talking the talk. It isn't easy to change one's sinful ways especially if it has become habit. However, with faith in Jesus and the help of the strength of the Holy Spirit, one can overcome their faults, weaknesses and sins such as alcoholism or drug addiction, sexual immorality, criminal conduct, lying, cheating, stealing or even believing in an errant OSAS. Isn't that what we talk about when we talk about our faith and religion?

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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