OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Major1 said:

NO!

James simply gives the explanation of what sin is. WORKS are not in view and James agreed with Paul that salvation is totally by faith and NOT WORKS.

Again, I say to you that according to Scripture, all our sin was paid for when we accepted Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:21 says...…..
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

According to Titus 3:5...….when we make that divine exchange at the cross, God chooses to see us as righteous. It is not our righteousness but the righteousness of Christ that God sees.

You are still confusion Catholic teaching with Bible teaching my friend.

According to the Scriptures, you are forgiven of your past sin, todays sin and tomarrow's sin and confession of your sin was done when YOU CONFESSED that Jesus is the Christ.

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If you do not enjoy reading James, then what about Peter? I don't think it's me as I can separate Sola Scriptura from RCC doctrine, but one has to talk the talk and walk the walk. This is what Sola Scriptura leads us to. That is what is in the Bible as per Sola Scriptura. Peter is addressing those who started being persecuted for their faith. If getting into heaven is important to you, then Jesus taught that being holy is key. John 3:16 is the beginning, not the goal. Faith and works makes us holy. Works by itself does not make us holy and that is probably what you are trying to say. And faith by itself won't make you holy as we aren't perfect. Just think if Adam and Eve had our strong faith. Even bbbbbbb said that we'll have thousands of unconfessed sins. Those who aren't holy won't get in.

In 1 Peter 1:13-16, Peter writes to believers, "Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'" Peter is quoting from Leviticus 11:44 and Leviticus 19:2.

What does the Bible say about holiness? What does it mean to be holy?

jamesbond007 said:

Let's just skip the first two because it really won't lead us anywhere ha ha. #3 and 4 is not true according to Sola Scriptura. You'll have to end up paying for your sins. For example, let's say you cheated on your wife several times and got away with it. Sexual sin. You never repented. This would be unholy and keep one out. God killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexual sins.

As for 5, this is the weakness I see in Christians who follow Sola Scriptura. There are strengths and weaknesses of any religion or Christian. They end up assuming that solely believing in Christ absolves them from their sins. Just remember that Sola Scriptura is based on fallible humans.

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Using your argument. Let's say you stretched the truth a bit when you decided to drive over the speed limit and your passenger pointed it out to you and you said it didn't matter because everyone else does it.

God states clearly that all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire and that we will be judged for every word we say.

Now, when you go to confession you don't bother confessing this sin because your probably don't even remember it or you don't even think stretching the truth is a problem. So, the sin, which was committed knowingly and intentionally by yourself, is not confessed. Presto Bingo! At the judgement Christ says, "Depart from me into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever." Is Christ wrong in not sending you to Purgatory to spend a few days of torture for that sin?

Major1 said:

But in comment #486 you said ……….
"NO! What is it with 'perfection' with you people. Do you believe perfectly?"

Now you just said...…………..
"As the Father does good to the evil and unrighteous, so we are to do the same, that is, be perfect as our Heavenly Father."

So then we actually do not known ANYTHING from your own words now do we ????

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So, do you believe doing good to the evil and unrighteous is being perfect as our Heavenly Father?

Being perfect and keeping the law perfectly are not the same.

EmSw said:

So, do you believe doing good to the evil and unrighteous is being perfect as our Heavenly Father?

Being perfect and keeping the law perfectly are not the same.

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Actually I think that is one of those question you posted about in that we should not be talking about "silly stuff".

The question itself makes no sense to me. How in their right mind would think such a thing? Lets stay on topic shall we and not go down the road of personal comments.

We are SINNERS and we can not be perfect in this life. We should as I have said to you several times now, work to obey God but knowing that we will fail and in that process we will STILL BE SAVED.

BobRyan said:

A. I agree that Good works is the product of being saved not the cause of it.
A. It is not true that all the actions listed above are called good works or that they are before being saved. Specifically these two examples.

In Rom 10 - what is it that "results" in salvation?

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

That which "results in salvation" most certainly did not come after salvation.

Acts 2 -
Repentance preceds salvation and also preceds forgiveness in 1 John 1:9

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



You have free will and so of course - you can choose as you wish.

But those points I highlight come straight from the text itself... the details in it.




The denominationalism that tries to promote Calvinism or OSAS in this case no matter the details in the text to the contrary -- might be the problem.



I did not say that. I said that repentence precedes forgiveness, precedes the born-again experience, precedes justification, precedes salvation.

You have edited/changed that into


Which was not what I said. It is you saying that.



There is exactly one text in the Bible using the phrase "by faith alone"
James 2
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

However you seem to want to infer that belief, repentance, turning to God, confessing sin - is not a "by faith alone" action.

But in fact -- it is.

And Romans 10 says it "results in salvation"

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Bob, again, how can an atheist repent before he knows what he is repenting from?????

If you throw a rope down from a burning roof top to a man below, are you going to ask him if he wants to change his life in order to be saved from the fire??????

Or are you going to yell at him to GRAB THE ROPE AND BE SAVED?????

Then after he is saved you will explain to him that he must STOP SMOKING IN BED/REPENT form smoking in bed.

I know that you are a well meaning Christian but I encourage you to really think about what you are proposing.

jamesbond007 said:

If you do not enjoy reading James, then what about Peter? I don't think it's me as I can separate Sola Scriptura from RCC doctrine, but one has to talk the talk and walk the walk. This is what Sola Scriptura leads us to. That is what is in the Bible as per Sola Scriptura. Peter is addressing those who started being persecuted for their faith. If getting into heaven is important to you, then Jesus taught that being holy is key. John 3:16 is the beginning, not the goal. Faith and works makes us holy. Works by itself does not make us holy and that is probably what you are trying to say. And faith by itself won't make you holy as we aren't perfect. Just think if Adam and Eve had our strong faith. Even bbbbbbb said that we'll have thousands of unconfessed sins. Those who aren't holy won't get in.

In 1 Peter 1:13-16, Peter writes to believers, "Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'" Peter is quoting from Leviticus 11:44 and Leviticus 19:2.

What does the Bible say about holiness? What does it mean to be holy?

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Where did I say that I did not enjoy reading James or Peter??????

You said...……….
"If getting into heaven is important to you, then Jesus taught that being holy is key."

NOT SO my dear friend. YES I believe getting to heaven is important as the only other choice is the lake of FIRE.
The KEY is NOT being holy. YOU can not be HOLY as you are a SINNER just like me.
The KEY to heaven is FATH in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said...………….
"Faith and works makes us holy".

NOT SO my dear friend! Please READ YOUR Bible!!!!!

Romans 4:3...……
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Romans 5:1...….
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works.

Romans 4:5 declares...…
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Yet, James declares in James 2:21...….
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown. (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it.

BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't!

Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..." !

Then you used 1 Peter 1:14- 16 to try and say that our holiness is to be an attribute
like God's Holiness.

NOT SO again my dear friend. You are confusing RCC doctrine instead of Bible doctrine.

God our Father and Creator is absolutely perfect and we will never be that in this life. IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

We are all human beings and we can be full grown and reach physical maturity but we will never reach perfect and or Holiness in these bodies.

bbbbbbb said:

Using your argument. Let's say you stretched the truth a bit when you decided to drive over the speed limit and your passenger pointed it out to you and you said it didn't matter because everyone else does it.

God states clearly that all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire and that we will be judged for every word we say.

Now, when you go to confession you don't bother confessing this sin because your probably don't even remember it or you don't even think stretching the truth is a problem. So, the sin, which was committed knowingly and intentionally by yourself, is not confessed. Presto Bingo! At the judgement Christ says, "Depart from me into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever." Is Christ wrong in not sending you to Purgatory to spend a few days of torture for that sin?

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What's the point of your specious argument and sin? I would think if you're a habitual speeder, then it's probably a sin. The Bible doesn't explain in detail how speeding as a sin. Too many tickets? Getting a ticket or thrown in jail for exhibition of speed? The Bible teaches us that we should obey the government laws, but it doesn't state that every violation is a sin.

So, my point was that the concept of purgatory is a fair one for those grey areas. An egregious one was hypothetical Dawkins recanting atheism and confessing he is now a believer on the deathbed. Purgatory is not explained in the Bible exactly, but there is the trial by fire. Why not have a place like purgatory to send you if you were a habitual speeder, but still holy?

Major1 said:

Where did I say that I did not enjoy reading James or Peter??????

You said...……….
"If getting into heaven is important to you, then Jesus taught that being holy is key."

NOT SO my dear friend. YES I believe getting to heaven is important as the only other choice is the lake of FIRE.
The KEY is NOT being holy. YOU can not be HOLY as you are a SINNER just like me.
The KEY to heaven is FATH in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said...………….
"Faith and works makes us holy".

NOT SO my dear friend! Please READ YOUR Bible!!!!!

Romans 4:3...……
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Romans 5:1...….
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works.

Romans 4:5 declares...…
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Yet, James declares in James 2:21...….
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown. (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it.

BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't!

Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..." !

Then you used 1 Peter 1:14- 16 to try and say that our holiness is to be an attribute
like God's Holiness.

NOT SO again my dear friend. You are confusing RCC doctrine instead of Bible doctrine.

God our Father and Creator is absolutely perfect and we will never be that in this life. IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!

We are all human beings and we can be full grown and reach physical maturity but we will never reach perfect and or Holiness in these bodies.

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This is what I am talking about. Too often I see Christians believing that faith is enough. Even a street beggar I used to see knew more. He held a large sign on a stick which read, "REPENT! The End Is Near. John 3:16." He understood that we had to do works, i.e. repent, to add to our faith in order to be saved. He understood that we needed to become holy as possible.

I don't think you understand what constitutes being holy even though the Bible teaches us. God is holy. He wants followers who are holy.

It takes both faith and works to be holy.

We should be baptized.
Acts 22:16 ESV
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

We should be God-fearing peoples.
Psalm 96:9 ESV
Worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness; tremble before him, all the earth!

We should repent for our sins
Acts 2:38 ESV
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent and do good works, i.e. bear fruit. Good tree (faith) produces good fruit (works).
Matthew 3:8 ESV
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

We should sing praises and give thanks to our Lord
Psalm 30:4 ESV
Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name.

The Holy Spirit helps achieve the impossible
Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Matthew 19:26 ESV
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

What Does the Bible Say About Being Holy?

Jesus discusses these believers, i.e. demons, who try to get into heaven via their faith and works. It includes the verses I hear often to back up their "faith."
Matthew 7:21-27 ESV
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. ...

One of the most difficult works
Matthew 6:14-15 ESV
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Give in secret and not to show others that you are charitable
Matthew 6:1-6 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...

We have to be better than the Pharisees
Matthew 5:17-20 ESV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Being holy is hard
Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Doing good works and not just working for self-gains and riches
Matthew 6:19-20 ESV
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Works is doing
Matthew 16:27 ESV

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

What Does the Bible Say About Getting Into Heaven?

The most difficult verses are in the Bible. These contains Jesus teachings. I didn't really read Matthew until I was Christian for several years. It was very difficult in reading it.

Here's what I learned in addition to having faith in Jesus, John 3:16. Do I talk about my faith with others like I talk about my hobbies, my wife, my children and how good a cook and wife she is or how proud I am of my kids' accomplishments? I made a list of whom I can discuss of my faith, i.e. family, friends and co-workers. Even relative strangers on a forum such as this. Do I put into practice the Lord's Supper? Sure, I receive communion, but do I invite those who share my faith or are thinking about it to my own supper? These are some ideas my church gave to me. Other churches have their own works such as clean up day, fund raising events, cure malaria day and so on. We have a help serve the poor representative who comes and recruits volunteers for their service meals. All of it is part of our faith.

I think you say the right verses of Paul, but you want to lives those verses, too. The Holy Spirit is in Romans and will be the one who intercedes for us to achieve.

jamesbond007 said:

What's the point of your specious argument and sin? I would think if you're a habitual speeder, then it's probably a sin. The Bible doesn't explain in detail how speeding as a sin. Too many tickets? Getting a ticket or thrown in jail for exhibition of speed? The Bible teaches us that we should obey the government laws, but it doesn't state that every violation is a sin.

So, my point was that the concept of purgatory is a fair one for those grey areas. An egregious one was hypothetical Dawkins recanting atheism and confessing he is now a believer on the deathbed. Purgatory is not explained in the Bible exactly, but there is the trial by fire. Why not have a place like purgatory to send you if you were a habitual speeder, but still holy?

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You missed my point. The sin was not necessarily speeding, but telling a bare-faced lie about it. One can argue about the morality of speeding because it is not considered to be a mortal sin, but lying is a mortal sin. In your world it seems, lying is not a mortal sin and you only have to do some "time out" in Purgatory. What other mortal sins are not mortal sins in your world?

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is true.

John 6:37-40: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


I know what you're thinking. "Oh, maybe God won't let go of you, but you can still let go of God." But, that doesn't make sense. God is holding onto you with His hand, and that means that He will not let you go even if you want to, even if you want to loosen His grip, you can't loosen His omnipotent grip.

Deuteronomy 32:39: ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
and there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

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You quoted John 10:28-30. But what about the "condition"? Don't you know that taking verse 28-30 out of context is the same as the Universalist false doctrine of the whole world will be saved? I would just like to caution you to always read in context for the truth.

The Condition

The previous verse:

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

I have a question for you seeing as you are Calvinist, and I'm not. I've just recently heard a bizarre interpretation of Galatians 5:16-21, especially 19-21.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It has been said by some on this site, that the sins of the flesh do not keep you out of heaven; that "will not inherit the kingdom of God" means these Christians merely do not receive the same amount of rewards in the kingdom of God.

Is this Calvinism, or something else. If something else, do you know what denomination? I do know they believe in OSAS. Do those of Martin Luther, rather than John Calvin?

dreadnought said:

If we all behaved ourselves, OSAS wouldn't really matter, would it?

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The problem with that though is our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Only through the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit can I do all things through Christ Who strengthens me. Romans 8:9

InterestedApologist said:

Thank you for responding to my post. The Armenian position on the loss of salvation is somewhat confusing to me. Among Armenians, there also seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding how or why someone loses one’s salvation. Some believe there are categories of sin that result in the loss of salvation while other sins are unintentional and have no impact on salvation whatsoever. Some say it is unconfessed sin. Some say it is failure to attend church. Some say a span of time without regular prayer and Bible reading will lead to the loss of salvation. Other than agreeing that salvation can be lost, the Armenian position seems very ambiguous on this.



Thank God for His grace. I love the story of the Prodigal Son. Having said that, is there ever a point in time during the story that the son ceases to be a son? In the story, the son deliberately sins for an extended period of time. He has squandered his inheritance. The son acknowledges that he is unworthy to be called a son. Yet, the father (God) welcomes him back and places him in a high position as though nothing was ever changed. The father is even shown to be carefully watching for the son in hope of his return. The story seems a stark contrast when measured against most of the loss of salvation proof texts offered in this thread.

If you wouldn’t mind, I would also like to hear your thought on the other three questions I posed in my original post.

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The prodigal is said to have been dead and lost while he was away from his father.

And I would say that the proper attitude, concerning the other thing, is not to ask, what will it take for me to lose my salvation; but rather to seek to be as close to the center of the Lord's will as possible.

amariselle said:

And that's fine. My desire is that people would understand the truth of salvation, which is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. For many years I did not understand that, even though I attended church all my life. I was constantly striving to add my own works to what Christ had done and I was never at peace. I just want people to "rest" in Him.

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Hebrews tells us to labour in order that we might enter into that rest.

justbyfaith said:

Hebrews tells us to labour in order that we might enter into that rest.

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Hebrews 4:
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Clearly the "labour" discussed is not works, it says right there, those who have entered into "rest" have "ceased from their own works." (Repentance from "dead works.") The "labour" in context, is faith, believing that Christ really did do enough to save us, to the "uttermost." He gives us eternal life.

EmSw said:

I went through the OT, and actually sought to find why they were cut off. Not once did God say He cut off anyone for unbelief. Want to know why He cut people off?

It was for disobedience and wickedness. You can surely go look for yourself. If you find Him cutting anyone off for unbelief, please let me know.

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See Hebrews 3:17-19. There unbelief is clearly related to committing sin.

aiki said:

This statement by Jesus about rejoicing angels clearly refers to, and concludes, the Parable of the Lost Coin. The statement does not directly relate to the Parable of the Prodigal; there is no parallel remark made at the end of the Prodigal parable. It seems evident to me, then, that the point of the Lost Coin parable is not identical to the point(s) made by Jesus in his Prodigal Son parable. Why, then, should I think the verse you cited has any direct bearing on the Prodigal parable?

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Because it is in the word of God, and scripture interprets scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.

EmSw said:

Jesus never said to keep the law perfectly. That is made up by man. Where do you find a requirement of keeping the law perfectly?

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Matthew 5:48 and Galatians 3:10-13, and James 2:10.

EmSw said:

I am amazed at those who call Jesus Lord and Master, who do not want to keep His commandments. It's like His commandments are some kind of lethal disease.

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The whole of scripture does not teach that we are saved by keeping His commandments (see Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16). We are saved, rather, unto keeping His commandments (Ephesians 2:10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 5:5).

EmSw said:

If the law couldn't save anyone, how were OT saints saved? Please show OT passages which support your answer.

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Genesis 15:6, Isaiah 51:1-2, Habakkuk 2:4. You can click on these to read them, or look them up in your kjv.

EmSw said:

We take up our cross to be a disciple, right? How about these?

John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

John 13:35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 15:8
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

This is how we become disciples, not by taking up our cross. So now, why do we need to take up our cross?

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Taking up our own cross and denying ourselves is equivalent to saying don't be selfish, put others before yourself, put Jesus before others and yourself. This is the same as John 13:35. And abiding in His word means that we will love one another and bear much fruit; these all mean basically the same thing to a certain extent. We love other people, putting them before ourselves, as the result of faith in Jesus Christ and not in order to earn salvation (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:1-5).

amariselle said:

Hebrews 4:
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Clearly the "labour" discussed is not works, it says right there, those who have entered into "rest" have "ceased from their own works." (Repentance from "dead works.") The "labour" in context, is faith, believing that Christ really did do enough to save us, to the "uttermost." He gives us eternal life.

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The labour, to a certain extent involves studying hard in order that you might rightly understand the message of the gospel. I did not say that salvation was by works. I merely pointed out that labouring is involved in entering into His rest. Once we have entered into His rest, no more labour is needed; but we continue to labour so that others might be saved (1 Thessalonians 1:3). People often labour to try to earn salvation and that is where they are in life. They are still under the law, and the law is working as a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. They are labouring to try to gain salvation through works; but the good news is that in studying the word to determine what is required of them, many will come across the doctrines of grace and will be able to enter into his rest, so that they can cease labouring for their own salvation.

aiki said:

No, I did not admit any such thing. I said that the NASB's rendering of Galatians 5:4 was unnecessarily extreme in its word choice. But even if "severed from Christ" is the way you want to go, it still doesn't mean one's relationship with Christ is destroyed or that one's second birth has been reversed. I know of two brothers who, it was said, had "severed all ties" with each other. Decades passed without either of them acknowledging the others existence. But, you know, they were still brothers. Nothing they could do would ever change this fact. This is one of the unalterable consequences of being born into a family - both physically and spiritually.



Did I say that you had?



There are kinds and/or degrees of separation. In any case, a lost person cannot be severed from Christ if they have never been joined to him in the first place. And a lost man cannot be said to have "fallen from grace" because he has not - as a lost man - yet laid hold of, and entered into, God's grace. So, the phrases "Christ is become of no effect unto you" and "fallen from grace" are not descriptive of the state of the lost. (Paul was writing to the Galatian Church, after all, not a collection of lost people.)



LOL! But Galatians 5:4 is itself such an example! That's what I've been arguing! Are you actually taking a moment when you read my posts to understand them? It doesn't seem like it...



No, this is what Jesus indicated in his parable.



But the father in the parable never does. In fact, he waits expectantly for the return of his son, not of a stranger. And when he sees his son afar off, he runs out to meet him with a hug and a kiss! Strange behaviour for someone you want to assert has "denied family connection" with his son.



Do you know what Strawman arguing is? Your remark above is an example of it. I have not, in fact, proposed a "Christless saved condition." I don't think that being estranged from Christ means one has lost their second birth any more than being estranged from my family would mean I was no longer born into it. I have already explained why. So far, you have not actually directly refuted my view but have erected a Strawman version of it to knock down.

Very obviously, the way a son is alienated from his father is different from the way an unrelated antagonistic neighbor is alienated from him. You appear to ignore this fact entirely so that you might force a saved-and-lost construction upon Galatians 5:4.



It is ridiculous, I agree, to suggest that a birth can be reversed. And yet, here you are arguing for such an idea.



I pointed out that many English translations of the Bible do not use the term "severed" in Galatians 5:4. And then I said that this indicates that "severed" is not a term that must be used. No where, though, did I ever say that the phrases used in the NASB version of the verse indicate what you say they do: a loss of salvation. I said "severed" may help to strengthen such an interpretation (which is doubtless why you chose the version that you did) but it by no means secures it.



Strawman. You might consider Paul's words in answer to your criticism:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Here Paul describes at least one benefit of having a relationship with Christ even though one may not have any fellowship with him. It is possible to have all that one brings to the Final Judgment burned up and yet still be saved. In any event, I have never contended for the Strawman position you've erected.



Again, this all deflection. You go after what I didn't say rather than what I did. This is avoiding my points rather than engaging them. And then you argue against your Strawman version of my view rather than the view I have actually presented. As I said: deflection.



But, you see, I don't think the story of the Prodigal has anything directly to do with the matter of salvation. It's teaching is concerned primarily with the nature of God, with His loving, faithful, patient and gracious character (illustrated in the conduct and attitude of the Prodigal's father), not with whether or not one can lose one's salvation.



Come now, you don't believe this, surely! Have you never heard of God's common grace?

Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Who sustains the life of the wicked moment-by-moment? God. Who provides for them the environment within which they live? God. Clearly, the idea that the wicked derives no benefit from God is patently false.



You are arguing against your own Strawman here.



Except the inheritance that made his wicked living possible.



As you can see from my responses above, this is not what I am saying.



Paul doesn't just call them "babes in Christ" but "carnal" and unable to digest the strong meat of deeper spiritual teaching. He accuses them of being divisive, and envious, and in conflict with each other. This sounds like people alienated from their Saviour, to me. Certainly, they were not living in obedient fellowship with Christ. And yet, they had not lost their place in God's family.

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I'm glad that you see what he has presented as a strawman, which means that you do not believe what he presented as a strawman...but there are those who actually believe what he has presented as a strawman, so what he wrote was not in vain. Also, I think that the Bible teaches that it is a sinful thing to be in debate mode (Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20); and therefore using debate tactics like identifying things as a "strawman argument" or "non sequitir" or "no true scotsman" etc. is not something I believe God wants us to do. We ought not to be here to argue but to learn. As ministers of the gospel we ought to with meekness instruct those who oppose themselves that they might be delivered from the captivity that the devil has put them in (2 Timothy 2:24-26); but being in debate mode is a no-no in God's sight.