OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 9, 2018

Major1 said:
You have just said what I have been saying so I must ask you why you are so angry and sarcastic towards me???

What is the point of the anamosity?

You said...……..
"You DO NOT earn your salvation by good works."

CORRECT and that is what I said.

You said...………
"You can't do enough good works to save yourself."

CORRECT and that is what I said.

You said...………
"When you come to believe in God, you are immediately justified".

CORRECT and that is what I said.

You said...……..
"Once you are saved, you are expected to obey God."

Correct and that is what I said.

But we do not have to obey to be or stay saved. We do not lose our salvation when we sin or disobey God.

If a person commits or lives in KNOWN SIN and disobedience to God then it can be said that they are not saved at all because the lost do not try to obey at all. Obedience is what we should do but none of us can obey ALL the Commandmensts ALL of the time. We must try but our salvation does NOT DEPEND on keeping the Commands but instead it depends on what Jesus Christ did for us.

I'm sorry if I come off as being sarcastic and angry. That's not how I am. Does that avatar look sarcastic and angry to you?

It's just that I'm very sure of what I believe and I see too much watering down of the gospel these days. I worry that it might cause some to lose their salvation because they're not told what's expected of them and God is a good and loving God but He also does demand obedience.

But, you see, you're doing it again up above...
You agree with me all the way...Then you say:

But we do not have to obey to be or stay saved. We do not lose our salvation when we sin or disobey God.

If a person commits or lives in KNOWN SIN and disobedience to God then it can be said that they are not saved at all because the lost do not try to obey at all. Obedience is what we should do but none of us can obey ALL the Commandmensts ALL of the time. We must try but our salvation does NOT DEPEND on keeping the Commands but instead it depends on what Jesus Christ did for us.

This is modern day stuff. This idea that Jesus did it all for us. I could speak to this in detail if you can accept that I'm not upset when I speak. We're all brothers in the Lord and just disagree on things -- some are important and others are not. I only spend time on what I think is important and has to do with salvation.

Of course we can't obey all commandments all the time. Did I say this? I'm the one who says we sin every day.

It's late here...tomorrow if you wish.

EmSw · Jun 9, 2018

Major1 said:
My dear friend, I do not choose to believe what YOU said that Ezekiel actually did say. That is all I am saying.

When anyon does the actual study of Ezekiel 18 it is clear that he is NOT talking about "Eternal Life" and who has it and who loses it. He is talking about the way God judges individuals.

18:4 says...….
"Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine, the soul that sinneth, it shall die".

Every man shall be put to death for his own sin because the wages of sin is death.

Verse 24 IS NOT speaking of a saved man losing his salvation. That is what YOU want it to say so you do it.

It has been my experience that the Congregational Holiness Church, the Wesleyan Holiness Movement, and the Charismatic Movement all misinterpret Ezekiel 18:24 to teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth!

However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.

CONNEXT and Bible study alsys lead us to the correct understanding IF WE WANT IT TO. So then when we read Ezekiel 33:12-13 states …
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

Did you read that? ... “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness.

Why not get the context correct, and not pull out 7 words of one verse to confirm your belief? Let's see what God says when we read the correct context. Unfortunately for you,“If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” is NOT the heart of the matter.

Verses 1-6 speak of a watchman being set over the children of Israel to warn of an approaching sword upon the land. The watchman is to blow a trumpet and warn the people if he sees a sword the Lord brings upon the land. In these 6 verses, we see nothing about any righteousness, but we do see iniquity mentioned (verse 6).

Ezekiel 33
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Now we see that God set Ezekiel as the watchman and was to warn the house of Israel of the sword God was bringing upon them. This is not a physical sword, but a spiritual sword. As you know, a sword refers to the Lord's words. If you recall, Jesus said He came not to send peace, but rather, a sword, and this was not a physical sword (Matthew 10:34).

Now we see what the sword was that God was to bring. When God said to the wicked that he would surely die (v. 8), this wasn't speaking of physical death. That the wicked man would die in his iniquity, is speaking of spiritual death.

God then says in verse 10 that Ezekiel was to speak to the house of Israel, saying 'if our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?' Here is what God answered (v. 11) - 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;'

God didn't want them to die in their wickedness, for He had no pleasure it that. He had rather they turn from their evil ways and live (spiritual life).

7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In verses 12 and 13, God now speaks to the righteous. Now before you get on your high horse, the righteousness of man is his righteous acts, that is, right living. It is the opposite of wickedness, that is, wicked acts.

God says these righteous acts will not deliver the righteous in the day of his transgressions. Do we find anywhere that righteous acts do deliver? You bet we do.
1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord render to every man his righteousness and his faithfulness;
2 Samuel 22:21
The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
2 Samuel 22:25
Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.
1 Kings 8:32
Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
Psalm 7:8
The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psalm 18:24
Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
Psalm 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Proverbs 10:2
Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 11:6
The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.
Proverbs 12:17
He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Proverbs 13:6
Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.
Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

Even though they did righteous acts, these do not deliver them in the day of their transgression. We see that righteousness does deliver a man, but not in his sins. Even if they trust in their righteous acts, they will not be remembered, but for their iniquity they will die.

12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Verse 14 starts out with 'again'. It is so important, that God mentions it 'again'. God says if the wicked turn from his sin (condition #1), and do that which is lawful and right (condition #2), HE SHALL SURELY LIVE. In verse 15, God says if the wicked do lawful and right things, without committing iniquity (very important), HE SHALL SURELY LIFE, HE SHALL NOT DIE.

And listen to this, verse 16 says NONE OF HIS SINS HE HATH COMMITTED SHALL BE MENTIONED TO HIM! Did you get that? None, not one of his sins will be mentioned to him.

14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

In verses 17, is what I hear from a lot of OSAS'ers. 'The way of the Lord is not equal' But God says your way is not equal. It's not the way you think, it's God's way only. And He has told us His way in verses 18 and 19.

If you say this is not right, this is not the way, God has this to say to you - 'I will judge you every one after his ways.'

17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

amariselle · Jun 9, 2018

It is interesting (and also unfortunate) that so many see resting in the grace and mercy of God, through faith in His promise of salvation for all who believe, as though the people who are trusting God fully in this way are advocating, desiring or giving a “license” to sin.

It’s also interesting that Paul and many early Christians were accused of that exact same thing.

And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage... Galatians 2:4

And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. - Romans 3:8

GodsGrace101 · Jun 9, 2018

amariselle said:
It is interesting (and also unfortunate) that so many see resting in the grace and mercy of God, through faith in His promise of salvation for all who believe, as though the people who are trusting God fully in this way are advocating, desiring or giving a “license” to sin.

It’s also interesting that Paul and many early Christians were accused of that exact same thing.

And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage... Galatians 2:4

And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. - Romans 3:8

That's the way it sounds A.
You even speak about the liberty in Christ.
What liberty then, if you agree we must obey?

If I were a new Christian, I'd be confused by your statements. And yet you agreed with me up above.

amariselle · Jun 9, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
That's the way it sounds A.
You even speak about the liberty in Christ.
What liberty then, if you agree we must obey?

I agree that we must obey as disciples who have been saved, born again, made “new creations” in Christ, passed from death to life and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Saved unto good works, not by them.

(And of course, you and I have been over this point repeatedly, and as we both know we don’t agree on the question of “good works” being necessary for salvation, I’m not sure why you chose to ask me the same question again.)

GodsGrace101 said:
If I were a new Christian, I'd be confused by your statements.

I have no idea why. Salvation is by grace, through faith, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

What precisely is confusing about the “simplicity” of Christ?

GodsGrace101 said:
And yet you agreed with me up above.

Where exactly?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 9, 2018

amariselle said:
I agree that we must obey as disciples who have been saved, born again, made “new creations” in Christ, passed from death to life and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Saved unto good works, not by them.

(And of course, you and I have been over this point repeatedly, and as we both know we don’t agree on the question of “good works” being necessary for salvation, I’m not sure why you chose to ask me the same question again.)

I have no idea why. Salvation is by grace, through faith, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

What precisely is confusing about the “simplicity” of Christ?

Where exactly?

Post 312.
My phone's going....
Tomorrow.

amariselle · Jun 9, 2018

Yes, this:

GodsGrace101 said:
You DO NOT earn your salvation by good works.
You can't do enough good works to save yourself.
When you come to believe in God, you are immediately justified. Please look up that word.
This is taught in Ephesians 2:8 and is common knowledge.

Once you are saved, you are expected to obey God. Would you say that is reasonable? The unsaved do not need to obey God...you can't get anymore lost than lost.

But if we're friends with God, we should obey Him. It's what God wants.
This is taught in Ephesians 2:10

God helps us to obey by having sent the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7

And if we sin, God has provided a solution and John tells us:
1 John 1:9

How can you then continue saying that we lose salvation if we don’t do “good works”?

Now I’m the one confused....

BobRyan · Jun 9, 2018

Good questions asked there GG101.

Notice that in Isaiah 66:23 God does not say "in the New Earth animal sacrifice every week and every month".

But what He does say is that in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

So then - something known to the OT saints would be going on for all eternity after the cross for all mankind.

GodsGrace101 said:
Please explain better.
This reminds me of when Jesus told the samaritan woman that no more will we worship in a temple in Jerusalem but we will worship in spirit and in truth., the temple will be inside us.
John 4

If animal sacrifices were really going to continue for all eternity then Isaiah 66 could well have said "from week to week shall all mankind come before me to offer animal sacrifices in the New Earth".

I was going along with the discussion about the Bible making a distinction between ceremonial vs moral law of God.

Major1 said:
I believe personally and it is my opinion that animal sacrifices will resume in Israel after the Rapture but will end at Armageddon and will not be instituted in the New Heaven and New earth.

well that gets into eschatology -- the Bible says that at the rapture the wicked are destroyed and the saints taken to heaven "I looked and behold there was no man". An empty desolate earth for 1000 years. But that is another topic area.

It seems to me that the Old Test. prophets were teaching us that the millennial sacrificial system will be instituted as a commemorative celebration of the completeness of the last and efficacious sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer. The temple will truly become a house of prayer for all nations.

There was never a time when the OT Temple was not supposed to be house of prayer for all nations. God's method of world-wide evangelism in the OT - was the "nation church" model of Israel reaching all mankind with the Gospel.

jamesbond007 · Jun 10, 2018

Major1 said:
You are asking a lot of question in a very short amount of time.

If you would like for me to engage you I will be more than happy to do so, however, please ask ONE at a time so that due diligence can be given to it.

So then the 1st one you asked was...……….
"What if it was solely ignorance such as someone who died as a baby or young child? :

Babies go to heaven as they are under the Blood of the Lord Jesus.

"God is love (1 John 4:8) and desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). God is love and His concern for children is evident in Matthew 18:14 where Jesus says, 'Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.'"

The Old Testament account of David and Bathsheba when their baby boy dies. David "confessed his confidence that he would see the child again and he comforted his wife Bathsheba," indicating that David believed his son was with God.

Please excuse me as I see that didn't explain well enough. I only listed some of the questions I struggle with in trying to see which side is right in the Christians vs Catholic philosophies. I wasn't looking for you to answer them. For example, the Catholics believe that babies go to limbo, although this may have changed in the 2004 (just looked it up), while Christians believe as you stated. Thus, the Scripture is sufficient to explain in this case while Catholics had to jump through some hoops to come up with a resolution.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 10, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Please excuse me as I see that didn't explain well enough. I only listed some of the questions I struggle with in trying to see which side is right in the Christians vs Catholic philosophies. I wasn't looking for you to answer them. For example, the Catholics believe that babies go to limbo, although this may have changed in the 2004 (just looked it up), while Christians believe as you stated. Thus, the Scripture is sufficient to explain in this case while Catholics had to jump through some hoops to come up with a resolution.

The CC has never believed in limbo. This is something made up by human man and the church just went along with it because the CC was never too big on teaching.

The CC believes that we must trust God's mercy as to babies.
The whole problem started with Augustine of Hippo. He's the one who came up with the concept of original sin, so, since nothing with sin can enter heaven, the CC started to baptize babies so they would go to heaven if they died since they were born with imputed sin.

This, of course, is not true. The CC has made its position clear on this. If you have any question regarding the doctrine of the CC, you really should read the CCC and be careful what site you use on the internet. EWTN would be good, or any official Catholic site.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 10, 2018

amariselle said:
Yes, this:

How can you then continue saying that we lose salvation if we don’t do “good works”?

Now I’m the one confused....

Because it's what I read in the N.T.
Jesus says so Himself very clearly in
John 15:1-6
He says that we must abide in Him if we are to live with Him and not be cut off and thrown away to be burned.

What does abiding in Him mean?
It means to continue living in Him. It means not to abandon Him. It means to obey Him. Jesus did leave us with certain things we are to do. I won't post them again, you must surely know that He wants us to behave a certain way as in Mathew 5:3-10, and He wants us to do certain things as in Mathew 25:34-46. Jesus says that IF we love Him, we will keep (obey) His commandments. John 14:21

All the writers state things we are not to do, especially Paul.
For example in Romans 13:8-13
Could it be that all these warnings were merely so we shouldn't lose rewards? No. I believe they were exhorting us to understand so we wouldn't lose our salvation. What else is more important than that?

So, I'm willing to say what I read, we are REQUIRED to do good deeds to do our share for the Kingdom of God here.
IF we don't obey God, this is what I read:

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:16
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

And so many more. These verses cannot just be ignored.
We are saved by grace through faith, but then we must also do our part....sanctification.

So to say that you agree that after salvation we do our works out of love but they are not necessary is very confusing.

We do them out of love and not because we're under the law, but God does expect us to do them.

Whatever they may be...

Major1 · Jun 10, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Please excuse me as I see that didn't explain well enough. I only listed some of the questions I struggle with in trying to see which side is right in the Christians vs Catholic philosophies. I wasn't looking for you to answer them. For example, the Catholics believe that babies go to limbo, although this may have changed in the 2004 (just looked it up), while Christians believe as you stated. Thus, the Scripture is sufficient to explain in this case while Catholics had to jump through some hoops to come up with a resolution.

The best way to understand what you are looking for is to realize that the Protestant Church believes ALL doctrine comes from and is rooted in the Bible. IF a doctrine is being followed is not found in the Bible then it is rejected.

The Catholic religion on the other hand places as much authority in the TRADITINS OF MEN as it does the Bible.

You mentioned "Limbo" which is another name for PURGATORY. In the Bible there is no such thing as Purgatory. IT is not found and neither is there one single Scripture that even suggests such a thing is possible. It is a TRADITION which was thought up by men in the RCC in order to entertain "indulgences" and a way to make money from the family of those who had a death. When a certain amount of money was paid to the church, the church would then release the spirit of the dead person to heaven.

Now you have been advised to seek advise from Catholic web sites. If you do please understand that you will be told exactly what the RCC wants you to believe which is NOT BIBLICAL.

I would advise you to seek out totally independent sources and web sites which do not have a dog in the hunt and rely strictly on Scriptures and not the opinions of men.

amariselle · Jun 10, 2018

Deleted because it would not let me save the correct formatting.

Major1 · Jun 10, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
It could've been naivete. We have the benefit of hindsight. Yet, if A&E were perfect, then they would've discussed and did something to prevent it. They may have erected a barrier. And was it just them? The command would've applied to all of us. Then I can see the Tree being under lock and key like Fort Knox . It would be an all or none situation.

Adam and Eve were Perfect. They were created by God and everything God did was GOOD!

They were created in the image of God and with a specific purpose in mind:
to rule over God’s earthly creation, however they just like the created angels had Freewill and when tempted they disobeyed God.

The moment they did, they died spiritually and need the blood of a sacrifice and Jesus supplied that blood with the killing of the animals which He then gave them skins to cover their sin. but they lived another 960 years.

That shed blood from animals pointed to the shed blood of the same Jesus who would die for all mens sin 4000 years later.

amariselle · Jun 10, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Because it's what I read in the N.T.
Jesus says so Himself very clearly in
John 15:1-6
He says that we must abide in Him if we are to live with Him and not be cut off and thrown away to be burned.

No one who has been saved, born again, passed from death to life, made a new creation in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, isn’t “abiding” in Him.

Remember, He also said that all who come to Him He will never cast out, and that He will lose none.

We have been “grafted in” through faith, not through works. A branch does not abide in the vine by its own effort either.

GodsGrace101 said:
What does abiding in Him mean?
It means to continue living in Him. It means not to abandon Him. It means to obey Him.

We are not saved because of our faithfulness or obedience, remember that, but because of the obedience of One. It is Christ Who is faithful, it is Christ Who never fails. No one who has put all their trust in Him, believing the Gospel that saves, need ever fear. He will never leave us or forsake us.

GodsGrace101 said:
Jesus did leave us with certain things we are to do.

As disciples, yes.

GodsGrace101 said:
I won't post them again, you must surely know that He wants us to behave a certain way as in Mathew 5:3-10, and He wants us to do certain things as in Mathew 25:34-46. Jesus says that IF we love Him, we will keep (obey) His commandments. John 14:21

Yes, and if we love Him we will, and we should, and he who is forgiven much loves much. But it is not our obedience and good works that save us, only Christ’s one time and all sufficient sacrifice on the cross does so, which we receive by faith.

GodsGrace101 said:
All the writers state things we are not to do, especially Paul.
For example in Romans 13:8-13
Could it be that all these warnings were merely so we shouldn't lose rewards? No. I believe they were exhorting us to understand so we wouldn't lose our salvation. What else is more important than that?

All of the Epistles were written to already saved and sealed believers. Paul never wrote to tell anyone they could lose their salvation. Romans is a beautiful letter that makes it absolutely clear that we are not saved by works. You should also carefully read and consider the letters to the Corinthians, many of whom Paul addresses as “carnal”, yet they were still saved.

GodsGrace101 said:
So, I'm willing to say what I read, we are REQUIRED to do good deeds to do our share for the Kingdom of God here.
IF we don't obey God, this is what I read:

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:16
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

I have addressed all of those and many others. There is a real danger in forming an entire theology on a few select verses which on their own are difficult to understand in light of the very clear promise we have that salvation is a gift of God, not of works. That we are saved by grace through faith.

GodsGrace101 said:
And so many more. These verses cannot just be ignored.

I have not “ignored” them.

GodsGrace101 said:
We are saved by grace through faith, but then we must also do our part....sanctification.

No “but”. You cannot mix salvation with discipleship.

GodsGrace101 said:
So to say that you agree that after salvation we do our works out of love but they are not necessary is very confusing.

What’s confusing is when you choose to tell people they are saved apart from anything they can ever do, and that they cannot add to that with their own efforts (which is absolutely true) but then you turn around and burden them again by telling them they will never keep their salvation if they don’t work for it.

And then you try in every way you can to insist this is not “works based” salvation. It is. Period.

Also, I never once said good works are not necessary, and you know that. The question is, what are they necessary for? And on that you and I disagree.

GodsGrace101 said:
We do them out of love and not because we're under the law, but God does expect us to do them.

Whatever they may be...

Of course He does, as His disciples, as faithful servants as our “reasonable service”. And who wouldn’t want to serve such a wonderful Saviour?

But, you are putting people back under the Law when you say obedience and good works are required for salvation. I’m truly sorry that you can’t see that.

Major1 · Jun 10, 2018

BobRyan said:
Good questions asked there GG101.

Notice that in Isaiah 66:23 God does not say "in the New Earth animal sacrifice every week and every month".

But what He does say is that in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

So then - something known to the OT saints would be going on for all eternity after the cross for all mankind.

If animal sacrifices were really going to continue for all eternity then Isaiah 66 could well have said "from week to week shall all mankind come before me to offer animal sacrifices in the New Earth".

I was going along with the discussion about the Bible making a distinction between ceremonial vs moral law of God.

well that gets into eschatology -- the Bible says that at the rapture the wicked are destroyed and the saints taken to heaven "I looked and behold there was no man". An empty desolate earth for 1000 years. But that is another topic area.

There was never a time when the OT Temple was not supposed to be house of prayer for all nations. God's method of world-wide evangelism in the OT - was the "nation church" model of Israel reaching all mankind with the Gospel.

You said...…………
Major1 said: ↑
I believe personally and it is my opinion that animal sacrifices will resume in Israel after the Rapture but will end at Armageddon and will not be instituted in the New Heaven and New earth.
Then YOU said...……..
well that gets into eschatology -- the Bible says that at the rapture the wicked are destroyed and the saints taken to heaven "I looked and behold there was no man". An empty desolate earth for 1000 years. But that is another topic area.

That statement is completely in error and I disagree completely with it.

The Bible does not say that the wicked are destroyed and the saints are taken to heaven. YES, ible says and teaches in many places that the saved will be removed and calls them the church. But then the Bible says that there will be SEVEN (7) years of God's wrath, known from the Scriptures as the TRIBULATION PEROID.

The Bible DOES NOT in any way say that the earth will thenbe desolate for 1000 years!!!!!!It says just the OPPOSITE.

What will life be like on earth in God’s promised brave new world? The limited mind of man can scarcely fathom the glory and splendor of what life will be like for mankind during this time. For now, we see only in part, as through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12). This future thousand-year reign of Christ on earth—described in Isaiah 35 and elsewhere—will be a time of wonderful peace, joy, and blessing, the utopia men have hitherto only dreamed about!

One of the first things King Jesus will do is to put Satan and his demons out of commission—locked away in an abyss of inactivity. No longer will those evil, fallen angels be lurking behind the scenes, fomenting trouble, goading mankind into acts of disobedience to God (Revelation 20:1–3). What a relief!

During this time, the nations will become exceedingly prosperous. Undoubtedly, many advanced technologies will be discovered for the benefit of those who are on the earth.

The Millennium will be a time of perfect, beautiful weather, a veritable tropical paradise. There will no longer be extreme shifts in the weather to fear—droughts, floods, storms, hurricanes, or tornados—for God will maintain proper climate control year round (Joel 2:23).

After centuries of pollution and war, the land will be healed, restored, and enjoy her Sabbaths. God’s commandments will be strictly adhered to (Psalm 111:10; 119:44; Isaiah 2:3). God will once again bless the earth, returning it to its former glory of Eden. “For the lord shall comfort Zion: He will comfort all her waste places; and He will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody” (Isaiah 51:3). The waters will come alive with every type of fish and become 100 percent pure for drinking, and the land will blossom with an abundant harvest. This will be a time of tremendous agricultural blessing. The earth literally will not be able to receive its bounty (Joel 2:24–26).

Millennial life will be active and productive (Isaiah 65:21, 22). God will change the nature of man so that he will greatly enjoy his labors (Isaiah 65:21–23). No more will a man dread going to his livelihood on Monday morning. He will be perfectly suited for the profession he has chosen and will do it with joy. Vibrant health will be the rule of the day. Lifespans will be increased. Those who are sick or afflicted will be miraculously healed (Isaiah 65:20). This great society will also be characterized by one universal language (Zephaniah 3:9).

The Kingdom of God— What Will It REALLY Be Like?

Major1 · Jun 10, 2018

EmSw said:
Why not get the context correct, and not pull out 7 words of one verse to confirm your belief? Let's see what God says when we read the correct context. Unfortunately for you,“If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” is NOT the heart of the matter.

Verses 1-6 speak of a watchman being set over the children of Israel to warn of an approaching sword upon the land. The watchman is to blow a trumpet and warn the people if he sees a sword the Lord brings upon the land. In these 6 verses, we see nothing about any righteousness, but we do see iniquity mentioned (verse 6).

Ezekiel 33
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Now we see that God set Ezekiel as the watchman and was to warn the house of Israel of the sword God was bringing upon them. This is not a physical sword, but a spiritual sword. As you know, a sword refers to the Lord's words. If you recall, Jesus said He came not to send peace, but rather, a sword, and this was not a physical sword (Matthew 10:34).

Now we see what the sword was that God was to bring. When God said to the wicked that he would surely die (v. 8), this wasn't speaking of physical death. That the wicked man would die in his iniquity, is speaking of spiritual death.

God then says in verse 10 that Ezekiel was to speak to the house of Israel, saying 'if our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?' Here is what God answered (v. 11) - 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;'

God didn't want them to die in their wickedness, for He had no pleasure it that. He had rather they turn from their evil ways and live (spiritual life).

7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In verses 12 and 13, God now speaks to the righteous. Now before you get on your high horse, the righteousness of man is his righteous acts, that is, right living. It is the opposite of wickedness, that is, wicked acts.

God says these righteous acts will not deliver the righteous in the day of his transgressions. Do we find anywhere that righteous acts do deliver? You bet we do.
1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord render to every man his righteousness and his faithfulness;
2 Samuel 22:21
The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
2 Samuel 22:25
Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.
1 Kings 8:32
Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
Psalm 7:8
The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psalm 18:24
Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
Psalm 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Proverbs 10:2
Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 11:6
The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
Proverbs 11:19
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.
Proverbs 12:17
He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Proverbs 13:6
Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
Proverbs 21:21
He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.
Ezekiel 14:14
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

Even though they did righteous acts, these do not deliver them in the day of their transgression. We see that righteousness does deliver a man, but not in his sins. Even if they trust in their righteous acts, they will not be remembered, but for their iniquity they will die.

12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Verse 14 starts out with 'again'. It is so important, that God mentions it 'again'. God says if the wicked turn from his sin (condition #1), and do that which is lawful and right (condition #2), HE SHALL SURELY LIVE. In verse 15, God says if the wicked do lawful and right things, without committing iniquity (very important), HE SHALL SURELY LIFE, HE SHALL NOT DIE.

And listen to this, verse 16 says NONE OF HIS SINS HE HATH COMMITTED SHALL BE MENTIONED TO HIM! Did you get that? None, not one of his sins will be mentioned to him.

14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

In verses 17, is what I hear from a lot of OSAS'ers. 'The way of the Lord is not equal' But God says your way is not equal. It's not the way you think, it's God's way only. And He has told us His way in verses 18 and 19.

If you say this is not right, this is not the way, God has this to say to you - 'I will judge you every one after his ways.'

17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

All of God's Scriptures are correct. However, your understanding of them is very flawed.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 10, 2018

aiki said:
But does God offer us a spiritual inheritance in Christ on this basis? Did He send His Son to die for us because we were "good nieces and nephews"? Does He offer us the gift of salvation in Christ because we have earned it? Scripture is very clear that God acted in love toward us while we were wicked sinners (Romans 5:8) and "alienated and enemies in our minds toward Him by our wicked works." (Colossians 1:21). It is in this condition of alienation and enmity that God holds out to us a spiritual inheritance in His Son. And when a sinner takes hold of the eternal gift God offers in Jesus, he does so unable to claim that he has done anything to earn it - just like the man in my analogy.

Using your analogy, I'd say that we become sons of God through no work of our own -- it is based solely on our faith.
God is graceful to all His creation...some reply yes to Him an some reply no. Those that reply yes, are justified by faith alone...nothing we can do can justify us before God except our faith in His Son. This would be
Ephesians 2:8-9
The works spoken of here are those that are done under the law... trying to please God by our works and not by our faith in Him.

But then we have the works spoken of in
Ephesians 2:10
These are the works we are to do after salvation and which God expects us to do---He expects us to obey Him. I'm sure you agree; I can post a lot of scripture.
John 14:15
James 1:22
James 2:17
Mathew 7:24

I agree with how you used your scripture, Romans 5:8, Colossians 1:21

You say God loves "all of Creation" but did Christ die for all of Creation? No, he atoned only for the sins of wicked humanity. God has a unique interest in, and love for, people - even when they are not obeying Him.

In my remarks I usually am referring to man, however creation is also waiting for freedom from corruption.
Romans 8:21-22

The man in my inheritance analogy must meet certain conditions to benefit from what his rich uncle has left him. As I explained, he must know and believe that he has an inheritance and then he must receive it. None of these things, though, do anything to earn the inheritance. The inheritance, in my analogy, is given as God's is to us, totally apart from the inheritor having done anything to deserve it.

This belief goes along with Ephesians 2:8
We receive salvation as a gift.
Justification

Why do we always leave out Ephesians 2:10?
We must please God and stay within His family to maintain our salvation.
Sanctification

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Click to expand...

The works of righteousness spoken of in Titus 3:5 are the works that correspond to Ephesians 2:8-9.
They're the works that persons try to do to please God but who do NOT have faith. These works are useless to God. He wants our faith; He wants our heart...THEN the works we do become useful to Him and are counted to our benefit.
Galatians 6:9-10
Luke 6:35
1 Peter 3:10-12

No, as Romans 12:3 indicates, the faith is not ours, but is given to us by God. We exercise the faith God has dealt to us in measure.

It can be said that faith is also a gift. I have no problem with this. As long as we understand that it is BY GRACE, by the grace of God, THROUGH FAITH, that would be OUR faith, it is necessary for us to have faith in order to be saved. One that does not have faith is not saved. Persons in the O.T. were also saved by their faith. It was accounted to them as righteousness --- before the sacrifice of Jesus. As Abraham for example and all those in the Hebrews Hall of Faith (and many more that are not mentioned).

But as Romans 12:9 says, even our faith is imparted to us by God. And it is not our faith that saves us but the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. As Paul stated in his letter to Titus, "He (God) saved us."
I've heard this before. Of course it's God that saves us...but through our faith. If one does not have faith, he can't be saved. I don't understand this line of reasoning... but it doesn't seem very important to me. Jesus saves, that's all that matters. He saves us if we have faith in him.

Yes. I don't take the Calvinist view that God forces us into his kingdom. But it is only because God has first acted positively toward us, and enabled us to respond to the Gospel in kind (2 Timothy 2:25), that we may do so.

Click to expand...

Although 2 Timothy 2:25 could be discussed a little, I won't since I think basically we agree on this.
God makes the first move -- always. He reveals Himself to everyone...then it's up to each individual person to accept His offer of salvation.

The verse does not speak of revealing, but of drawing. God draws men to salvation. If He does not, as Jesus says, no man can come to him.

Click to expand...

Uh oh! I was afraid of this. Words can be so deceiving.

I have no more time but will respond when I get back home...

This entirely misses (or ignores) my point which was that, whether or not one believes the medicine is helpful, it is still one's own medicine.

Yes, it is correct. I have not confused what Paul wrote about concerning the Jews (and you have not shown that I have).

If a person drifts from God, there's a good chance they were never saved. But if they were truly saved and have drifted, doing so no more dissolves their membership in God's family than the profligacy of the Prodigal dissolved his membership in his father's family (which it didn't). Our adoption into God's family is entirely contingent upon Christ, not us. God accepts us because of His beloved Son, period. The redemptive work of Jesus at Calvary was perfect, fully satisfying God's justice, and cannot be added to or improved by anything we might or might not do. And since the foundation of our salvation and acceptance by God is the perfect and unchanging Saviour, our acceptance with God never changes.

Is Matthew 10:33 speaking of people who are saved and then deny their Saviour? I don't think so. It is the lost who have denied and will deny Christ, not the saved.

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Again, it is the lost who reject, refuse, disavow (all legitimate synonyms for "deny") the Saviour, not those who have been truly born-again. (1 John 2:19)

This isn't what the verses say, however. As Paul wrote to the Philippians, God (not us) begins a work in each of His children and He (not us) will bring that work to completion. (Philippians 1:6) This is repeated by Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The God who wants to sanctify completely His children and make every part of them blameless, Paul writes, is faithful to do so. Our salvation is God's work and our practical sanctification is His work. And this work God has promised to fulfill and complete. He does this whether or not I want Him to. Imagine if God had waited for rebellious sinners, alienated from and at enmity with Him, as Scripture says, to turn of their own accord, and humble themselves, and receive His love, grace and forgiveness. He'd still be waiting! God is always taking the initiative with us, moving us in directions we often don't want to go. I see in this just how little my desire and ability to please God has to do with my relationship with Him. In fact, without God, I would have neither the desire nor the ability to do His will. (Philippians 2:13)

How did He save us when we were totally separated from Him by our sin, at enmity with Him in our minds and hearts and so completely alienated from Him? Despite our terrible condition, He still manages to save us. You see, we aren't what is important, He is.

No, we have free will. But He makes us able to exercise that will positively toward the Gospel.

And we only want heaven if God has persuaded us to want it. Again, God is the crucial factor, not us.

No, it doesn't always mean this. Where did you get this idea from?

Well, hang on, now. To whom was Jesus speaking and when? He was speaking to unsaved Jews, primarily. and he said what he did in Matthew 5:13 before he had died on the cross and made it possible for people to be born-again. So, no, he wasn't speaking to "US," that is, saved people when he spoke of the "salt of the earth." There were no saved people at the time.

Which deflects my question.

But as the parable of the Prodigal makes clear, the Prodigal's sonship was very beneficial to him. He gained an inheritance, and when he had used it all up, he was able to return to the loving, fully-accepting arms of his father.

How does verse 14 start? "If any man's (or anyone's)... Verse 11: "No man"... Verse 15: "If any man"... Verse 12: "Now if any man's..." Seems pretty clear to me that Paul was speaking in a very general sense and not specifically about teachers.

No, it doesn't. I already pointed this out to BobRyan in this thread:

I see the term "dead" used in a number of ways in the New Testament:

It is used figuratively.

Matthew 28:3-4
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

It is used literally.

John 11:14
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."

It is even used in connection with non-biological things.

Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

I don't see, then, that there is the reason you suggest for thinking that, when the father in the Prodigal parable says that his son was "dead," that he meant "dead in trespasses and sins."

I'm afraid you do - though, you do so one step removed from conversion. You don't say one can be saved by works, but you do say that salvation can only be maintained or preserved by good works. This is, to quote BobRyan, "a distinction without a difference." If your works are necessary to the retention of your salvation, then your salvation is works-dependent. This is works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies.

To analogize: Imagine a judge who casts a serial murderer into prison with the declaration, "I am keeping you in jail for the rest of your life!" The murderer is jailed and is never released. Who has actually kept the murderer in jail? The judge? Or the staff at the prison? The prison staff, of course. Whatever the judge has claimed about his role in the convict's fate, the practical reality is different. You seem to be thinking in a similar way. God says, "I save sinners!" but you think that, really, you are kept in God's kingdom - you are saved - by dint of your own efforts. You give lip service to Ephesians 2:8-9 but think and live practically in contradiction to these verses. At least, that's how it looks to me. Am I mischaracterizing your position?

Will finish later on...

EmSw · Jun 10, 2018

Major1 said:
All of God's Scriptures are correct. However, your understanding of them is very flawed.

So, is my understanding inferior to yours? What makes your understanding superior? Are others in error and you aren't? Is this not boasting?

I have found the book of Ezekiel, for the most part, is not a favorite of OSAS'ers. They don't like that one has to rid themselves of iniquity and do what is lawful and right in order to live.

Major1 · Jun 10, 2018

EmSw said:
So, is my understanding inferior to yours? What makes your understanding superior? Are others in error and you aren't? Is this not boasting?

I have found the book of Ezekiel, for the most part, is not a favorite of OSAS'ers. They don't like that one has to rid themselves of iniquity and do what is lawful and right in order to live.

It is not matter of inferiority.

It is real simple. As someone who rejects the eternal security of God, you make it a practice of using Scriptures that have nothing to do with OSAS and making them fit what you believe.

On the other hand. I and the others who believe in OSAS simply accept what the Scriptures and change our opinions to them.

I have given you the proper and acceptable meaning of Ezekiel which you can verify with any independant Christian web site or by any number of Bible teachers.

You said...…………
"They don't like that one has to rid themselves of iniquity and do what is lawful and right in order to live."

That right there is the perfect example. That comment is exactly OPPOSITE of the Scriptures.

Do you have Romans 11:6 in YOUR Bible...…….
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

How about Galatians 2:16...……
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

What these Scriptures that verify eternal security. Are they in your Bible?

Psalms 37:24...…
"Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand."

John 3:36...….
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life"

John 6:37...…
" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

John 10:28...….
" And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Romans 8:38-39.....
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Now according to these next Scripture, when we sin, we do NOT LOSE OUR SALVATION but we will be chastised.

Psalms 89:30-34...….
"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips."

Hebrews 12:5-8...….
"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Revelation 3:19...…….
" As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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