Osas and apostasy

[Ricky M]

There is one and only one way God imparts the grace of salvation upon someone... and that is when they believe and confess Christ. That's it. There is no good deed you could ever do that would add anything to that. (Not to say good deeds don't have their place but that's another discussion).

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

Believe and confess. You're in. Dis-believe and deny and you're out.

Now, the Bible seems to be at odds with itself on the subject. There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away. And that stickler of 'they were never with us' of those who do. The basic arguments are, can one fall out of a tree they never climbed into, and if one climbs that tree and falls out of it, were they really ever in the tree to begin with?

Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.

 

[Jonaitis]

There is one and only one way God imparts the grace of salvation upon someone... and that is when they believe and confess Christ. That's it. There is no good deed you could ever do that would add anything to that. (Not to say good deeds don't have their place but that's another discussion).

I agree that we contribute nothing to our salvation except the sin that made it necessary. I also believe that God imparts grace to the sinner to repent and believe in Christ, so that all things pertaining to salvation is freely given to us from him.

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

I agree, we cannot totally nor finally fall out of the state of grace, no matter how much we may sin. We weren't saved by our works, and we cannot fall by them either. Salvation is the Lord's doing, not dependent upon our faithfulness.

Believe and confess. You're in. Dis-believe and deny and you're out.

I would say repent and believe, confession is an expression of that transforming truth in our life.

Now, the Bible seems to be at odds with itself on the subject. There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away. And that stickler of 'they were never with us' of those who do. The basic arguments are, can one fall out of a tree they never climbed into, and if one climbs that tree and falls out of it, were they really ever in the tree to begin with?

The passages that deal with apostasy uses language that the individual was in a state of grace, but in reality it was an just appearance. We still do that today. If I meet another person who calls himself a Christian, I will call him 'brother' without questioning whether he truly believes in his heart the truths that he claims he trusts. I must take it that he does believe it. If he falls away, it is as if he fell away from the very faith that I assumed he had. In the passages regarding apostasy, the apostles make it clear that they are meant to warn and encourage the church, but that those who do fall away weren't at all part of the true living head, Jesus Christ.

Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

I don't believe they are both true, but rather misunderstood.

Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

Joe was never in the hands of the Father then.

"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (John 10:29).

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Or, he already wrote the names of his people in the book of life before they were born, and before they could do any good or evil.

"And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain" (Revelation 13:7-8).

His elect have their names already written therein, in this moment in time he is redeeming those whom he predestined to save.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

In this case, it was never there to begin with. If we use your theory (that has no scriptural grounds), then God is ever learning and ever changing because of his creation. He isn't perfect, but is still in a continuing state of progression toward something better. He must correct himself, he must change his plans, he must do all these things by the influence and power of his creatures. This runs into other theological errors beside the fact that we have turn God into a man in every way.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.

You know why Peter never totally nor finally died Christ? Because of this...

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers" (Luke 22:31-32).

God preserved Peter's faith, it wasn't by his own strength or effort that he remains a disciple.

 

[Sorn]

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

That just seems unnecessarily complicated frankly, if God is watching Joe and sees him dis-believe then at that point (be it in our timeline or Gods timeline) He can just erase Joe's name. God can't fool himself so He can't pretend the name was never in the book, just that Joe met the condition (sadly), where his name gets erased. That's all that needs to occur.

Or as the jonaitis said, he never wrote the name in the 1st place as he can see the future.
Alternatively, He could wait till we die and then write it in (or not as the case may be) as it can't be changed after that.

Simply no need to time travel, assuming it were possible.

 

[Ricky M]

That just seems unnecessarily complicated frankly, if God is watching Joe and sees him dis-believe then at that point (be it in our timeline or Gods timeline) He can just erase Joe's name. God can't fool himself so He can't pretend the name was never in the book, just that Joe met the condition (sadly), where his name gets erased. That's all that needs to occur.

Or as the jonaitis said, he never wrote the name in the 1st place as he can see the future.
Alternatively, He could wait till we die and then write it in (or not as the case may be) as it can't be changed after that.

Simply no need to time travel, assuming it were possible.

And time travel is really not the right expression, since eternity has no timeline that is just how it would look to us.

 

[Ricky M]

I would say repent and believe, confession is an expression of that transforming truth in our life.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Maybe repentance is also an expression of confession. Really can't do one without the other

I don't believe they are both true, but rather misunderstood.

..?

then God is ever learning and ever changing because of his creation. He isn't perfect, but is still in a continuing state of progression toward something better. He must correct himself, he must change his plans, he must do all these things by the influence and power of his creatures.

God is all sovereign, but He has chosen to take an observers post for the most part. That's what's behind giving Adam free will and dominion, it's what's behind Christ coming to reclaim that dominion, it's what's behind His empowering us to enforce His dominion here and now thru the Holy Spirit. It is not Him but us who are ever changing, ever in progression, ever needing correction and change. He is not influenced or powered by His creatures, but He does give His creatures the freedom to influence and power their own lives.

.

 

[Aussie Pete]

There is one and only one way God imparts the grace of salvation upon someone... and that is when they believe and confess Christ. That's it. There is no good deed you could ever do that would add anything to that. (Not to say good deeds don't have their place but that's another discussion).

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

Believe and confess. You're in. Dis-believe and deny and you're out.

Now, the Bible seems to be at odds with itself on the subject. There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away. And that stickler of 'they were never with us' of those who do. The basic arguments are, can one fall out of a tree they never climbed into, and if one climbs that tree and falls out of it, were they really ever in the tree to begin with?

Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.

There are two salvations. The first is instantaneous on accepting Christ. The individual is born again and that is eternal. The second "salvation" is progressive. I like to use "deliverance" these days. "Salvation" has become code for going to heaven when you die. There is so much more to be had.

A Christian can lose the experience of salvation in this life time. Those who refuse to deny their own life and live only for themselves will miss out on the blessings of God's kingdom. God is not going to condemn the new spirit that He put within us. I know many Christians who are born again but barely going through the motions. It's sad for them because they are wasting an opportunity that many others never get. We get one shot at this life. We should make the most of it.

 

[salt-n-light]

There is one and only one way God imparts the grace of salvation upon someone... and that is when they believe and confess Christ. That's it. There is no good deed you could ever do that would add anything to that. (Not to say good deeds don't have their place but that's another discussion).

Conversely, there is no bad deed you could ever do that would take salvation away. Since it hinges on belief and confession, bad deeds do not erase God's grace. (Not to say that bad deeds don't have their place, but that's yet another discussion).

Believe and confess. You're in. Dis-believe and deny and you're out.

Now, the Bible seems to be at odds with itself on the subject. There are verses that say once His God will never let us go, yet there are also passages that clearly say there are those who will taste God's grace and turn away. And that stickler of 'they were never with us' of those who do. The basic arguments are, can one fall out of a tree they never climbed into, and if one climbs that tree and falls out of it, were they really ever in the tree to begin with?

Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

Which brings us to another thread's question of time travel. I believe God has access to all of time, all of the time (yet another discussion). I also believe that God's knowing everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean He causes those things to happen. So, He watches Joe go to church and come to believe, and God writes Joe's name in the book of life. Joe after many years backslides, falling deeper and deeper into sin. No matter how deep Joe sinks he's still saved - until that point satan puts him in a position of having to confirm his faith. Joe then abandons belief and denies Christ.

God then goes back in 'our time' and erases Joe's name from the Book, making to be as if it were never there from the beginning.

Time goes on and eventually we'll meet our maker and the Book will be opened. Joe's name won't be there, just as if it never was. But clearly, in our time line at least, it was at one point there.

OK, Peter denied Christ. 3 times to be exact. But he never stopped believing in Him. That's part of the equation. Joe stopped believing. That's the difference between backsliding and apostasy. One is not walking the walk. The other is denying there IS a Walk.

I don't believe the OSAS.

Death is the last thing we have to conquer, that is our last enemy. So until we die, that chance to lose salvation is always there. Us receiving salvation, doesn't mean we made it. I always go back to the analogy of a kid drowning and Jesus being the lifeguard. Yes we decided to receive help and salvation would be the life saver, but until we actually reach land, that chance to still drown is still there.And for a lot, that have happened, got a life-saver but maybe along the way didn't trust Jesus anymore, or didn't want salvation and went back to drowning, and to that, it would be as if they were never saved.

I do agree that we can't just pinpoint downfalls based on good and bad actions. But in the end we can't control when its our last breath, and to that everyone is responsible to always keep their heart and desires in check, because at the end of the day if we get caught not gripping hard enough to our salvation when the waters gets too rocky,we can easily be losing out on being with God in the end. Those that value their life and relationship with God will do whatever it takes to secure that.

Bible is pretty clear though when it comes to what it takes to keep yourself in right standing with God.

 

[Jonaitis]

God is all sovereign, but He has chosen to take an observers post for the most part.

I disagree with this, Ricky M.

"Have you not heard that I determined it long ago? I planned from days of old what now I bring to pass" (2 Kings 19:25). God is carrying out his purpose right now, all that he had planned beforehand. He purposed that we would make certain choices freely, and so what we do was already predestined to happen. He is sovereign over the course of our lives, and every direction that we turn on it. We are responsible for the choices we freely make, but we must acknowledge that God determined that we would do that according to his own purpose, and that he is carrying out the redemptive story in each and every one of our lives, with all the failings included (this gives us greater comfort in the fact that we depend on him for our safety). There is nothing outside the control of our Creator. He does not partake in our sins, nor force us to sin, but he is sovereign over the choices we make nevertheless.

It is not Him but us who are ever changing, ever in progression, ever needing correction and change. He is not influenced or powered by His creatures, but He does give His creatures the freedom to influence and power their own lives.

Yes, we are moral agents that make choices truly and freely, but none are outside of divine providence. What will happen is what was suppose to happen, even the small decisions that we make on a daily basis.

It may seem that I am turning this thread toward another direction, but it is related. If believers can truly apostatize, then God is not at all sovereign over our lives, and further our redemption. If he is an observer in general, then he is an observer in our salvation. This simply cannot be true. God does give us the perseverance to stay faithful, he doesn't just watch us struggle and fight and backslide without intervening. If you agree, then you must agree that he isn't a bystander of creation either.

 

[Jonaitis]

I always go back to the analogy of a kid drowning and Jesus being the lifeguard. Yes we decided to receive help and salvation would be the life saver, but until we actually reach land, that chance to still drown is still there.
And for a lot, that have happened, got a life-saver but maybe along the way didn't trust Jesus anymore, or didn't want salvation and went back to drowning, and to that, it would be as if they were never saved.

I've heard people use this analogy before, but it isn't a very good one and has some problems. It sounds as if we were half-alive and on the edge of death until we chose Christ to save us. However, Scripture says that we were already "dead" in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). It is similar to the resurrection of Lazarus. He wasn't half-alive and was given a choice if he wanted to live. Jesus called him, while dead, to come back to life.

So the analogy should be that we were already dead at the bottom of the ocean, and Jesus dove in and pulled us to shore, and breathed life back into us (so that we would want to be saved and put our faith in Christ).

 

[Hillsage]

There are two salvations. The first is instantaneous on accepting Christ. The individual is born again and that is eternal. The second "salvation" is progressive. I like to use "deliverance" these days. "Salvation" has become code for going to heaven when you die. There is so much more to be had.

A Christian can lose the experience of salvation in this life time. Those who refuse to deny their own life and live only for themselves will miss out on the blessings of God's kingdom. God is not going to condemn the new spirit that He put within us. I know many Christians who are born again but barely going through the motions. It's sad for them because they are wasting an opportunity that many others never get. We get one shot at this life. We should make the most of it.

I like what you are saying AP but I like to add one more salvation to your equation. We are triune beings just like God, and God has provided for the salvation of all three parts of us. Getting your spirit born again into the "spirit of Christ in you" is the first salvation. Never can get 'unborn' once you've been born. After that we work on the progressive second salvation of conforming our mind/soul to that of the mind/soul of Christ. But that salvation doesn't determine 'going to heaven' it determines the degree of glory your glorified body will have. And our resurrected body is the third salvation.

1. So 'spirit saved' is your ticket to heaven....OSAS.

2. 'Soul saved' determines your rewards IN heaven. You can walk 6+ steps forward and you can backslide to the start.

3.'Body saved' is your resurrected body you live in for eternity. Different degrees of glorification based upon your walk from the birth of your spirit until the death of your body and judgment of your soul's works.

 

[bling]

There are lots of verses which warn Christians about becoming lost, needing to hang in there to the end, and continuing, but people will use scripture that seems to be saying:

1. People who are not faithful at the end of their life never were converted.

2. You are selling a work bases salvation.

3. There are different “salvations” and say things like “Ananias and Sapphira” were punished with death, but go on to heaven salvation. (They do not explain how death suddenly became a punishment for Christians who get to go home?)

4. Christ will not loss any.



I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).



Jesus would use the very best words to convey the meaning and Jesus did not say: “God brought him to his senses”, but Jesus did say “he came to his senses”. How did he do it if he was in a dead state or can you do this if you are in a dead state? We know the young man was in a dead state because:

Luke 15: 24 “For this son of mine was dead and is alive again…” and Luke 15:32 “…because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again;…”

The Father (representing God) does not say “We thought he was dead” or “was like dead”.

There is not a definition given for being “Spiritually dead” so we cannot say exactly what that means, but from this passage Jesus is teaching us a spiritually dead person can repent.

It is a lot more complex than just looking at it and giving one meaning to “spiritually dead”. In one since the young man does not have Godly type Love and Paul teaches us (1 Cor. 13) without this Godly type Love you can do nothing of value (it is worthless) so in that since what the young man did in even repenting was “worthless” of no value. The young man is actually being “motivated” by self seeking reasoning, but it does cause him to swallow his pride. The acceptance of the Father’s Love is really not “doing” something but more allowing something to be done to you.

In other words, the young son did not really “do” anything in his dead state, but did allow the father to do stuff for him. The Young man could have gone on in the pigsty trying on his own to recover (maintaining some pride), but that would be really trying to stay alive by doing something as compared to giving up (being a walking dead person).

 

[Ricky M]

You know, all of that's right and none of it is exclusive. There is so much involved in the subject that our finite minds can never truly grasp it all. That's why people tend to cling to some scriptures and dismiss others. I just can't wait till that moment we are gathered to Him and have that all encompassing aha! moment when the glass is finally lifted. And it will all seem so simple then

From my study, the Bible is very clear on several points...

1. Grace/Salvation is imparted upon confession and belief
2. Once saved God will never let us go
3. Once saved our names are written into the book of life
4. Some will taste God's grace and then turn away
5. The names of those who fall away will be erased from the books
6. Those people will be as if they never tasted grace at all
7. Those people cannot be re-saved and are lost forever

Now how those all gel - that's what we have debates over!

Bless you all for sharing

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't believe the OSAS.

Death is the last thing we have to conquer, that is our last enemy. So until we die, that chance to lose salvation is always there. Us receiving salvation, doesn't mean we made it. I always go back to the analogy of a kid drowning and Jesus being the lifeguard. Yes we decided to receive help and salvation would be the life saver, but until we actually reach land, that chance to still drown is still there.And for a lot, that have happened, got a life-saver but maybe along the way didn't trust Jesus anymore, or didn't want salvation and went back to drowning, and to that, it would be as if they were never saved.

I do agree that we can't just pinpoint downfalls based on good and bad actions. But in the end we can't control when its our last breath, and to that everyone is responsible to always keep their heart and desires in check, because at the end of the day if we get caught not gripping hard enough to our salvation when the waters gets too rocky,we can easily be losing out on being with God in the end. Those that value their life and relationship with God will do whatever it takes to secure that.

Bible is pretty clear though when it comes to what it takes to keep yourself in right standing with God.

How can someone be unborn again? You can surely lose the experience of salvation. But the whole concept of salvation is much misunderstood. The gospel is not about salvation. It is the gospel of the Kingdom of God. To be born again is to be able to see the Kingdom. Tragically, not all who are born again seek the Kingdom of God first. Being "saved" in the first place costs nothing. To be "saved" as in being delivered from the world, self and Satan costs everything. Insipid preaching has led to insipid "Christians" who often are not born again. It's easy for them to fall away because they were not for real in the first place.

 

[salt-n-light]

How can someone be unborn again? You can surely lose the experience of salvation. But the whole concept of salvation is much misunderstood. The gospel is not about salvation. It is the gospel of the Kingdom of God. To be born again is to be able to see the Kingdom. Tragically, not all who are born again seek the Kingdom of God first. Being "saved" in the first place costs nothing. To be "saved" as in being delivered from the world, self and Satan costs everything. Insipid preaching has led to insipid "Christians" who often are not born again. It's easy for them to fall away because they were not for real in the first place.

I'm not understanding the disagreement, since it seems like we are on the same page.

You can't be unborn, but you can surely have never been born again. The gospel is "good news" and the whole point of the good news is that we have a chance of being saved. That doesn't insure that everyone will be saved even if they have knowledge of God. So we are in agreement then, yes they were not for real in the first place. But no one can say that they never wanted salvation. But wanting salvation, and actually being in the state of "saved" is two different thing and the only time salvation is fully completed in process is when we die.

 

[salt-n-light]

I've heard people use this analogy before, but it isn't a very good one and has some problems. It sounds as if we were half-alive and on the edge of death until we chose Christ to save us. However, Scripture says that we were already "dead" in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). It is similar to the resurrection of Lazarus. He wasn't half-alive and was given a choice if he wanted to live. Jesus called him, while dead, to come back to life.

So the analogy should be that we were already dead at the bottom of the ocean, and Jesus dove in and pulled us to shore, and breathed life back into us (so that we would want to be saved and put our faith in Christ).

What's the difference between drowning and drowned? Point is that without being both rescued and taken safely to shore, we would be doomed. People think because Jesus reached out that now we just assume that we are on shore. Salvation is a process, that starts with crying for help, and doesn't end when God comes to the rescue, salvation is complete when we actually make it to be with God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

What's the difference between drowning and drowned? Point is that without being both rescued and taken safely to shore, we would be doomed. People think because Jesus reached out that now we just assume that we are on shore. Salvation is a process, that starts with crying for help, and doesn't end when God comes to the rescue, salvation is complete when we actually make it to be with God.

If we are not "with God" now, we are not born again. I don't know about you, but I am seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. On earth, Jesus lives in me. In Heaven, I am dead and my life is hidden in Christ with God. Yes, is possible to shut Jesus out of your life and there will be consequences. "Behold I stand at the door and knock" was said to Christians.

 

[Hillsage]

There are lots of verses which warn Christians about becoming lost, needing to hang in there to the end, and continuing, but people will use scripture that seems to be saying:

1. People who are not faithful at the end of their life never were converted.

No, they were 'unfaithful' in the progressive salvation of their souls "being conformed to the mind/soul of Christ" after their spirits got born again SAVED.

2. You are selling a work bases salvation.

No, the bible is teaching a 'no work' salvation for your spirit and a 'you work' salvation for your soul.

3. There are different “salvations” and say things like “Ananias and Sapphira” were punished with death, but go on to heaven salvation. (They do not explain how death suddenly became a punishment for Christians who get to go home?)

And the bible says?

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

4. Christ will not loss any.

As proven above. Not a verse in the bible saying Jesus saves souls. Just ones saying WE save ourselves from the wicked world we live in.

ACT 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

JAM 5:19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner (brethren) from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

If you think 'your work' or the 'work of the brethren' trying t get saints to quit sinning means we've died for the ETERNAL FORGIVENESS of their sins 2000 years ago, we disagree.

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

None of which is "rightly dividing the truth" in its application to the three part salvation of a triune man to which they belong IMO.

 

[1213]

...
Most people play one set of verses against the other, thus the endless debate. Me, I think how can these opposites be really both true?

I think the confusion comes from that people don’t understand what the salvation means. I have understood salvation means that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would come because of the sin. Salvation can’t be lost, because what is forgiven is forgiven. However, if person returns to sin, the older forgiveness Is not useful, because there is a new sin. That is why I believe Jesus said:

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

That is why I think it is important to not reject God after sins are forgiven. To have eternal life, person must be righteous.

 

[bling]

You know, all of that's right and none of it is exclusive. There is so much involved in the subject that our finite minds can never truly grasp it all. That's why people tend to cling to some scriptures and dismiss others. I just can't wait till that moment we are gathered to Him and have that all encompassing aha! moment when the glass is finally lifted. And it will all seem so simple then

From my study, the Bible is very clear on several points...

1. Grace/Salvation is imparted upon confession and belief
2. Once saved God will never let us go
3. Once saved our names are written into the book of life
4. Some will taste God's grace and then turn away
5. The names of those who fall away will be erased from the books
6. Those people will be as if they never tasted grace at all
7. Those people cannot be re-saved and are lost forever

Now how those all gel - that's what we have debates over!

Bless you all for sharing

I am glad you can agree with what I said, but we are not addressing the real problem, since such an important truth needs to be grasped.

We all come with preconceived ideas about: man’s objective, God’s consistency, God’s Love, God's sovereignty, man’s free will, forgiveness and God’s judgement. We hold to our beliefs to the point it forces our interpretation of scripture.

Our biggest issue is with man’s objective and God’s Love

God’s Love is pure charity (totally undeserved and unconditional), it is merciful, gracious, forgiving and sacrificial, but then we want to turn around and say God is “just” like justice and Love cannot go hand in hand and “ justice” overrules God’s love somehow. To explain how an all Loving God could allow people to go to hell, we seem to have to assume “God is not all Loving”, because God can “do” anything?

This gets back to man’s objective and God’s objective, because there are things that are impossible for even God to do (which contradicts some people’s assumptions). It is impossible for God to create another Jesus, since not even God can create something which has always existed. A being (like humans) cannot be made clones of Christ, but we can be made very good (as good as God can make a being).

Man’s objective as I see it, initially is to obtain Godly type Love which will make amn like God Himself, since God is Love. The problem is God cannot instinctively place Godly type love in a human since that would make the Love robotic (nothing more than a knee jerk reaction) and if God tries to force Godly type Love on a person it will not be Godly type Love and more like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. Also, Godly type Love is so huge it cannot be taught to a person, developed by the person, deserved, paid back, or made logical. Adam and Eve did not obtain it in the Garden situation so a better way and place is needed. This messed up world with: satan roaming around, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even sin is all caused or allowed by God to provide the very best situation for willing humans to obtain Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of some free will choice and then it can grow with use from there.

The only way I see for man to initially obtain Godly type Love is through what Jesus taught us and what we most likely have experienced. Luke 7 Jesus teaches us the truism: He who is forgiven much will Love much, so if a person humbly accepts God’s pure charity of forgiveness of his unbelievable huge debt (caused by sin) that person will automatically be gifted with an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). Thus the need for man to sin (not pleasing to God, yet allowed by God), satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kind, death, and hell.

The problem is with humbly accepting pure charity (in the form of forgiveness).

People have been told there is another human objective and have Biblical support for this other objective, but that is because you can take any command given in scripture and call it man’s objective with Biblical support. Is man’s objective to: “Believe in the one who sent me”? You have to do it and if you refuse to do it you’re in trouble. How about “make disciples” or “trust and obey” or “bring glory to God” or any other command? Tell me this: Is there an overriding command all the other command are subordinate to?

Loving God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy, sound like a really good mission statement, but we are back to the need for this hugely unique Godly type Love. We have to first obtain this beyond man’s ability type of Love.

Accepting a charitable gift is not work (by the Biblical examples of ‘work”), and not giving away a huge charitable gift is not work.

Thus God can Love everyone, desire the best for everyone and still have some wind up in hell, because some will refuse to the point of never accepting God’s charity and thus never having nor even liking Godly type Love. Since, Heaven is like one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love that person would not be happy there, but that does not explain why they go to hell. They do not go to hell because God does not Love them, but to provide help for some other willing individuals God also Loves to help them to not wait to make the right choice.

If you understand man’s part (just accepting) in the salvation process you should be able to see man still needs free will to Love and thus could use His free will to reject God’s Love and go back to seeking carnal type love.

This is no small subject and I can discuss it further.

 

[bling]

No, they were 'unfaithful' in the progressive salvation of their souls "being conformed to the mind/soul of Christ" after their spirits got born again SAVED.


No, the bible is teaching a 'no work' salvation for your spirit and a 'you work' salvation for your soul.


And the bible says?

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

As proven above. Not a verse in the bible saying Jesus saves souls. Just ones saying WE save ourselves from the wicked world we live in.

ACT 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

JAM 5:19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner (brethren) from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

If you think 'your work' or the 'work of the brethren' trying t get saints to quit sinning means we've died for the ETERNAL FORGIVENESS of their sins 2000 years ago, we disagree.

None of which is "rightly dividing the truth" in its application to the three part salvation of a triune man to which they belong IMO.

First off you say I am not "rightly dividing the truth" with the two verses I quoted and interpreted, but did not say why it is not truthful?
You need to read my post 19