OSAS and 1 Timothy 3

[Catholic Dude]

I came across a pretty neat passage on another Catholic apologetics page which I thought would be nice to share here:

1 Tim 3 : Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, ... He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
​

How can this new Christian fall under the same condemnation as the devil if salvation cannot be lost?

 

[christianmomof3]

Satan's fall was due to pride, thus he was judged. A new believer should not be in a position of overseership because he too could become proud and thus fall like Satan did.

 

[Hentenza]

I came across a pretty neat passage on another Catholic apologetics page which I thought would be nice to share here:

1 Tim 3 : Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, ... He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
​

How can this new Christian fall under the same condemnation as the devil if salvation cannot be lost?

I fail to see the connection between OSAS and 1 Tim 3. Maybe you can expand your thoughts.

 

[Thekla]

I fail to see the connection between OSAS and 1 Tim 3. Maybe you can expand your thoughts.

provided I understand what CD is getting at; because if OSAS posits we cannot lose salvation if we are truly saved, how can this 'recent convert' lose what is guaranteed ... (ie, at what point is salvation completed/assured)

 

[Hentenza]

Hey Thekla,

But that is not what 1 Tim 3 is saying. The context of this chapter is about who can become "overseers and deacon" not about who is saved. Of course you would not want a newbe to go directly to a position that requires teaching and wisdom. There is nothing in this chapter about salvation.
I still don't understand the connection of this verse and OSAS.

 

[Thekla]

Hey Thekla,

But that is not what 1 Tim 3 is saying. The context of this chapter is about who can become "overseers and deacon" not about who is saved. Of course you would not want a newbe to go directly to a position that requires teaching and wisdom. There is nothing in this chapter about salvation.
I still don't understand the connection of this verse and OSAS.

it may be that the OSAS doctrine is misunderstood (I don't claim to understand it), but here, Paul is suggesting that Christians -- in this case a 'neophyte', is especially prone to becoming 'unsaved'. Previous discussions here (specifically, IIRC, per Paul's pronouncement of anathema on some within the ekklesia) led to the response that those who had been 'excommunicated' by Paul were not really saved to begin with. Again, the discussion of 'wolves among the flock' was met with the rejoinder that these had not been truly of 'the flock' to begin with. This passage in 1 Tim. suggests otherwise -- certainly, the appointment of those within the ekklesisa as episkopos/geronta/elders/presbyteros would indicate that they had met the criteria for one of the flock -- yet Paul indicates their salvation could be jeopardized .

 

[Recon3rd]

Being a follower of Jesus I find it puzzling that another follower would question if a person could loose their salvation.

Is God stupid or not sure who should be saved, so He'll just save anyone then, if it doesn't work out He'll un -save them.

If you use all of scripture instead of a few selected verses to try and prove your point even though your point as well as the scriptures you use are out of the context and setting of the scripture. If they don't harmonize with all scripture perhaps you need a tune up.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:37)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (John6:44)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and my Father are one. (John10:47)

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph1:11)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Eph 2:1)

Do you fully grasp what being born of the Spirit means/does?

 

[Ave Maria]

I came across a pretty neat passage on another Catholic apologetics page which I thought would be nice to share here:

1 Tim 3 : Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, ... He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
​

How can this new Christian fall under the same condemnation as the devil if salvation cannot be lost?

What Bible version are you using there? Is it a Catholic Bible? I'm just curious.

 

[Thekla]

What Bible version are you using there? Is it a Catholic Bible? I'm just curious.

its 1Timothy 3:6

 

[MrPolo]

I fail to see the connection between OSAS and 1 Tim 3. Maybe you can expand your thoughts.

I think because the passage says the person is a "convert" he is therefore in the faith. So how can he fall out if it and be judged like the devil once in the faith?

Most protestant translations say "convert" or "Christian". The Greek word there means "newly planted; a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian" (Strong lexicon).

 

[Catholic Dude]

I think because the passage says the person is a "convert" he is therefore in the faith. So how can he fall out if it and be judged like the devil once in the faith?

Most protestant translations say "convert" or "Christian". The Greek word there means "newly planted; a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian" (Strong lexicon).

You and Thekla are correct. The passage is pretty clear to me and others. There is a new convert, a Christian, who can fall under the same condemnation as the devil if he becomes puffed up with pride.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I came across a pretty neat passage on another Catholic apologetics page which I thought would be nice to share here:

1 Tim 3 : Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, ... He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.​

How can this new Christian fall under the same condemnation as the devil if salvation cannot be lost?

Maybe they need to wait till they are 30 yrs old to teach?
The greek word used here is for "young", and since I am over 30yrs old, I am eligible to teach!!!

1 Timothy 3:6 not a young-plant, that no being conceited into judgement should be falling of the Devil.

1 Timothy 3:6 mh <3361> {NO} neo-futon <3504> {A YOUNG PLANT} ina <2443> {THAT} mh <3361> {NO} tufwqeiV <5187> (5685) {HE MAY BE CONCEITED} eiV <1519> {INTO} krima <2917> {A JUDGEMENT} empesh <1706> (5632) {HE MAY FALL} tou <3588> {OF THE} diabolou <1228> {DEVIL.}

 

[Rick Otto]

I came across a pretty neat passage on another Catholic apologetics page which I thought would be nice to share here:

1 Tim 3 : Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, ... He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.​

How can this new Christian fall under the same condemnation as the devil if salvation cannot be lost?

It wasn't lost.
This passage is about ego, pride, & maturity, not loss of salvation, which isn't dependant upon your sinlessness, rather upon God's mercy & forgiveness. You can lose rewards in heaven without losing your place in it.

LLOJ: "... I am eligible to teach!!"

I think you serve well as a warning.

 

[Rightglory]

Otto,

It wasn't lost.

This passage is about ego, pride, & maturity, not loss of salvation, which isn't dependant upon your sinlessness, rather upon God's mercy & forgiveness. You can lose rewards in heaven without losing your place in it.

Of course that makes the devil saved but probably gets last place in the reward line.

 

[MrPolo]

The greek word used here is for "young"

That website actually says, the Greek word is literally "Young plant, novice." As I earlier linked Strong's lexicon specifies it to Christian convert, also novice or newly planted. It has nothing to do with how long a person has been alive. It has to do with how long they have been a Christian.