Orthodoxy and Capital Punishment

[minasoliman]

I think posts 64 and 66 were my favorite in this discussion (64 is catchy...but the rep Nazis prevented me from repping this one)

I think it's important to read 66 again as it should explain a lot of why things occurred and still do occur:

OK, I'll take your word for it, my friend.

I guess I'll go ahead and offer a personal opinion on the subject.

I agree with you that Holy Scripture appears to clearly give the state the authority to perform capital punishment. It also appears to clearly give the example of nonviolence. The History of the Church lifts up both warriors and pacifists as Saints. I see a parallel to the fact that Holy Scripture clearly upholds marriage, and also gives a clear example of a life of virginity.

Just as the Orthodox Church lifts up both the married life and the monastic life as holy and worthy, there is room in Orthodoxy for complete pacifism (even of the state - I am thinking of several Kievan Prince/Saints who allowed themselves to be assassinated instead of using the rule of law to have those whom they knew plotted against their lawful rule to bring justice), and of those who use the sword in obedience to their lawful leaders.

War and capital punishment are never "moral", but are a part of live in a broken, sinful world. Soldiers who shed blood (and I would assume executioners for lawful rulers would be treated similarly), were often held away from the partaking of Communion for a period of time. Not to "punish" them for an immoral act, but because there is definitely a spiritual disease associated with taking the life of another (God called David " a man after My own heart", but also did not allow him to build His Temple, because of the blood on his hands.)

We may uphold complete pacifism, and in a "democracy", to vote our conscience. We may also be a soldier, and uphold the God-given right of the State to handle the rule of law (even capital punishment). We may do either, and not be any less Orthodox than the person who is on the other extreme. But when we condemn the other as unorthodox, that is when we place ourselves outside the boundary of Orthodoxy.

Just one man's opinion. I pray and beg for correction where I err.

I think there is such things today as a "necessary evil." I used to be for the capital punishment. My arguments are based on the idea that the capital punishment is no different than killing in war. It is a duty not primarily done to inflict punishment on the murderer, but to set an example to the society. If capital punishment and the method behind it can lower murder, than I'd support it. I believe St. Athanasius said along the lines that "sex is legal within marriage, just as the license to kill is legal within ranks of soldiers and policing."

But I would definitely hate to administer CP to satiate the vengeful desires of the public. It would only feed on evil desires. While it may destroy other possible murderous deeds, it has an effect on people that is quite animalistic and childish. We want to foster rehab and forgiveness, not vengeance. We have to hate what we do, not enjoy it as some sort of "will of God." It's only the "will of God" when there are hardened and evil hearts, like divorce.

Also, not everything in the OT is believed to be possible in a rational manner. There are laws are that "impossible" or "irrational" to follow, like cutting out the child if he's not circumcised on the 8th day. It would make more sense to kill the father, but what has the child done that he did not get circumcised? This law, according to Origen, was never followed. He mentioned that this was there to be understood later in the spiritual sense. I would probably include the mass genocide of the people of Jericho and Midianites, which included children, as an "impossible rule" that never happened, and hard to justify if taken literally, unless you happy to agree with a Mafiosa philosophy and fight for survival of your own race in the OT.

So, I would be careful using the OT. The OT is the source of many people who become unbelievers and leave Christianity altogether. It must be properly understood in the context to which many fathers looked at. One such recommendation I'd make is Origen's Philocalia, which was a compilation made by St. Gregory Nazienzen and St. Basil (two prominent fathers just in case the whole "It's-Origen's-work-therefore-it's-not-Orthodox" type of argument comes at me). So if anything, this is a sure Orthodox piece of work.

A priest (OCA) told me that the OT must be understood in light of the NT. Therefore, be careful with using OT practices in today's war ideas. I wouldn't be going around killing little children who happened to be sons and daughters of Arab terrorists in war.

And to extend the argument a bit further, think of prison time as also a necessary evil. For consistency's sake, locking up people in prison is also quite bad when taking out of a political/governmental context into a religious context. To put someone behind bars is also an evil. And there are also the evils of proving God's existence because the use of logic takes away some of the innocence and purity in spiritual experience. This is something that is innate but unfortunately denied by others, and it has become a necessary evil to logically prove and debate the existence of God (or to reprove others for heresy to try to lead them to correct dogma). White lies are necessary evils sometimes. These "necessary evils" are not sinful or wrong, but when used wrongly or in the wrong hands or at the wrong time, that's when it's not right. In a society like America, where the capital punishment becomes an expensive lethal injection that is harmless to the eyes of other criminals, that feeds on the vengeance of society, and that doesn't rehabilitate the murderer, then CP would seem outright wrong and unnecessary to begin with, since no good would come out of it in the end.

God bless.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Just so no one confuses my arguments with jackstraw's: I don't believe the DP is optional. I believe we have to have it. There is no evidence to show that God changed His mind after instituting in in the Law.

Paleo, do you think it is better to have a broken system of applying CP like ours than none at all?

I mean, what you are saying sounds a bit draconian. Have it at any cost. As if it were somehow a mandate of God.

If it's a mandate, WHEN do we have to use it. Should it be everytime one person is killed? When just over 10 are killed. When people were killed in hate? For adultry? Or perhaps, when a government decides so (which means our society since we have a jury system) so the reasons may depend on the society and time? If that's so, what if a society decides not to use it? Or another decideds to over use it? Is it possible to over use it? When is it being used wrongfully?

I simply don't see your that we MUST have it supported by the Church en large throughout history or in the Scriptures. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that the US should have it. I can see how that right is definitely supported. But where it's no longer a right but a divine Mandate?

So, I ask you: what if a country is too immature to use it properly (and defines properly and improperly)? It is certainly possible that such a situation can exist, can it not? Do we go with their unequal, unfair usage of the DP because according to you it MUST be or do we say "Well, [country] doesn't know what it's doing, so they just need to not use it until they can get their act together".

It is interesting that a disproportionate percentage of african americans reciever the death penalty when compared to the number of white people that actually get it when tried for the same crimes. That's gotta make us think that something is fishy. And understand me correctly, I am not saying it's unfair that more black men are sent to the chair than white men (that's possibly a very different question) but that the percentages of those TRIED for the same crimes are vastly different. In a jury system, one can see how preudice can easily make it's way in. To me that is a very compelling point that the US is too immature to handle such a grave responsibility.

Now, that's just my opinion and I certainly respect the opinion of others who say we should have it. But that all nations MUST have it (that there is never any option to decide to do away with it) seems to ignore the fact that not all are capable of handling such a responsibility.

Xpy

 

[paleodoxy]

Xpy,

Your concern regarding the use of CP in nations that are non- or even anti-Christian has a lot of merit behind it, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you.

The mandate comes in (I believe) whenever God's people have been graciously granted the reigns of government. The only divine blueprint we have for conducting civil affairs in a righteous and holy manner is found in the O.T., and anything beyond that comes from man seeking to be autonomous.

I don't deny that there have been many sincere and holy men in the history of the Church who rejected capital punishment on principle, and I would be the last to deny them their proper place in the Kingdom of God. Some pacifists were martyrs, and I don't deny them the glory of their martyrdom or sainthood, either. Nevertheless, on this issue, I think they were in error.

 

[paleodoxy]

Minas, in cautioning the misuse of the O.T. (and this is a valid concern), illustrates this with a couple of examples, and one warns (for example) that the O.T. could be used as a justification for killing the young children of terrorists.

Without meaning any disrespect at all, I must point out that, in general, universally throughout all of Christendom right now, there is a pitiful lack of knowledge about the Law of God because most Christians believe it basically has nothing to offer us today, and that it is largely irrelevant. This basic ignorance shows through in a lot of the posts I have gotten in this thread - assumptions made about the implications of applying O.T. Law that are simply wrong because few of us have taken the time to scratch its surface, much less examine its wisdom with an eye toward its potential application to Christian society.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am a very ignorant person with a vast amount to absorb and learn on copious issues...but one thing I have done is study the case laws through and through, with the assistance of scholars who know what they are talking about. There are still some outstanding questions about certain aspects of the O.T. and their relevance or lack thereof for today, but as a system it has basically all been worked out. (These scholars are little known because the movement is small and mostly confined to specific theological circles, though there are more than a few adherents in just about every ecclesiastical Christian tradition, including Orthodoxy.)

The war example raised in the post referred to above, as another example, is demonstrative of the problem of ignoring O.T. Law. If we knew our Pentateuch better, we would immediately realize that there are two separate sets of rules governing warfare in places like Deuteronomy 20, one governing total warfare (which applied to Canaan, the Promised Land), and the other governing warfare with the nations outside Canaan.

The latter forbade total warfare. After successfully laying siege to an offending city, all males were to be killed, but the killing of females and cattle, and the destruction of crops and fruit bearing trees (food sources) was absolutely forbidden.

Again, total warfare applied only to Canaan (the Promised Land). It is no longer the Promised Land. Total warfare is no longer divinely mandated. If the nations sought to follow God's Law in the area of warfare today, there would be far less death, destruction, or environmental problems.

 

[paleodoxy]

I would encourage anyone interested in these issues to consider purchasing the following books. They go well beyond issues of capital punishment, and cover almost all of the case laws still deemed valid in some sense for today. There are some commentaries on the case laws covering Exodus through Deuteronomy that may be hard to get now, but I think I know of a place where they can be obtained. I won't list them here unless anyone specifically requests their titles.

Some you would have an easier time finding:

- Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators (by David Chilton)

- By This Standard (basic): by Dr. Greg Bahnsen
- No Other Standard (intermediate) by Dr. Greg Bahnsen
- Theonomy in Christian Ethics (advanced) by Dr. Greg Bahnsen

- The Institutes of Biblical Law (3 vols.) by Dr. R.J. Rushdoony

 

[Philothei]

http://incommunion.org/articles/pre...re-the-meek-capital-punishment-and-the-gospel

 

[Philothei]

http://incommunion.org/index.php?s=capital+punishment

 

[paleodoxy]

Ah well, I'll go ahead and list the other books anyway. The author is Dr. Gary North, and some of you libertarians out there may be familiar with his articles over at Lew Rockwell...

Victim's Rights
Moses and Pharaoah: Dominion Religion vs. Power Religion.
The Sinai Strategy (his commentary on the Ten Commandments)
Tools of Dominion (1,200 pg. commentary on the Exodus case laws)
Boundaries and Dominion: Leviticus
Sanctions and Dominion: Numbers
Inheritance and Dominion: Deuteronomy

 

[Philothei]

One of the most loved saints in the Orthodox Church, St. Nicholas the Wonderworker of Myra, intervened to prevent three executions. In icons of St. Nicholas in which biographical panels are included, you always find this included — the bishop in his vestments putting his restraining hand on the raised executioner’s sword.

 

[Philothei]

These are all the unleavened bread my friend. We have the levened bread now...

God bless,
Philothei

 

[Philothei]

I just love this icon....

http://incommunion.org/articles/previous-issues/a-saint-who-stopped-an-execution
God bless,
Philothei

 

[paleodoxy]

So, you honestly believe that future Christian governments, were they to faithfully institute the moral laws, ordinances and precepts from the O.T. (not the ceremonial shadows which have clearly passed away), we would be worse off than in non-Christian nations?

You don't think God's Law exists to make the unbelieving nations wise, as Deut.4:5-6 says: Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land wither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

 

[paleodoxy]

jackstraw is right. I'll I'm seeing is emotion without reason. There is really no point in continuing to dialogue until someone actually deals cogently with the evidence offered in this thread, both biblical and from the fathers such as Chrysostom and Augustine.

 

[Philothei]

We are not looking forward to the fullfillement of the law of an earthly Jewish nation... we are looking for the Upper Jerusalem... heavens above. We do not model after the an earthly kingdom such was the Jewish state... Christ did not idealized the Jewish state actually he found it to be corrupt, hypocritical and in need of renewal. The old law of the Jewish state was for the Jews at that historical time before the New Bread the levened Bread came on the earth to establish the Law of love and mercy....ARe you wondering why so many OT laws got changed? So many fellows here brought about so many examples....the adulteress, the sabbath, the hitting of the chilren but none was good enough and rationalized properly... I just wanted to show the tradition of the Church on the issue. We do not have as elaborate of thesis against CP like the western "social ethicists' you brough about but we do not care since our saints talk volumes about our beliefs. Fr. Harakas in his old age has started a new book on Patristic Ethics Ithink it might be out I have to look into it. I would suggest to everyone her to read it.

no offense just wanted to show the truth about the fathers.

God bless,
Forgive me.
Philothei

 

[Thekla]

So, you honestly believe that future Christian governments, were they to faithfully institute the moral laws, ordinances and precepts from the O.T. (not the ceremonial shadows which have clearly passed away), we would be worse off than in non-Christian nations?

You don't think God's Law exists to make the unbelieving nations wise, as Deut.4:5-6 says: Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land wither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

We live in a democratic society -- which "party" is best poised to fulfill the role you propose ? Would implementation be consistent after a shift in the governing party ? How could this be guaranteed ?
Further, this is a secular nation -- we cannot even consider the potential application of any new system of law -- even OT -- until some analysis of its implementation in the present environment is considered. Thats not emotional - thats reality.

 

[Philothei]

In Communion » Blessed are the Meek: Capital Punishment and the Gospel




by Fr. Thomas Mueller

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall loveyour neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies…”
​

Mt 5:43
In September 1995 the Wisconsin state legislature once again considered enacting capital punishment. Wisconsin abolished capital punishment 141 years ago. Of course, states can enact such laws as the majority endorses. These laws may be morally good, neutral, or evil. A new capital punishment statute would put the state in the business of killing. What is most appalling is the fact that many religious people are saying that capital punishment is morally good, righteous, and even compatible with the Gospel. Some political organizations that label themselves Christian loudly advocate capital punishment as well. If the state conducts executions, it will be another triumph of violence. That will be one thing. But for Christians to promote such state violence is another thing. And this is the unrighteousness I address — not that of a violent state, but that of Christians.
I am grateful that the Orthodox Church in America, at its All American Council in St. Louis in 1989, passed resolutions condemning both abortion and capital punishment as unrighteous and evil. Both are killing. The distinction of innocent and guilty victims, that it’s evil to kill the first and all right to kill the second, is not a New Testament concept at all. Some use such a distinction to condemn abortion on the one hand (as it must be condemned) and then to advocate capital punishment at the same time. Such a distinction and contradiction cannot be found in the Gospel or justified by it. In reality, all such killing harms not only its victims, but also its perpetrators — and the society that espouses it.
In the case of capital punishment, the basic motive (if truth be told) is not deterrence but retribution — vengeance, to use a less polite word. In fact, the public outcry for capital punishment is clearly and admittedly a cry for vengeance. Vengeance not by God at the Last Judgment, but by men here and now. We can find many references to such vengeance in the Old Testament; but how can the Gospel of Christ be twisted and misconstrued to justify it? Can the spirit of the Gospel be so misinterpreted? What’s more, how can those who claim to be Biblical literalists and fundamentalists so ignore the direct meaning of Jesus’ words? To his credit, Pope John Paul II in his recent encyclical calls both abortion and capital punishment evils, unconscionable acts of violence.
The Gospel’s Testimony on Killing & Vengeance

“And forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors.” (Matt. 6:12)
“Forgive us our sins, as we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.” (Lk. 11:14)
​

What are we to say to the condemned criminal? We forgive you, but now die to pay your debt to society? To kill is an act of absolute unforgiveness. In killing, we do not affirm life but attempt to destroy it. Whatever worldly sense this may make to some people, it cannot be squared with Christ’s words, or with our taking them to our mouths in prayer — the Lord’s Prayer.

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth…” (Matt. 5:5)
​

Before someone suggests that a prosecuting attorney can call for the death sentence in a meek way, or the judge meekly pass a sentence of death, or the executioner carry out the state-sanctioned killing in all meekness, let us look at what the Greek word — – used in the Gospel implies. When Plato used the word “meek,” he referred to people who are mild and gentle rather than hard or violent. For Epictetus, it indicated a nature that is not inclined to become embittered or angry at what is unjust: the attribute of a generous and magnanimous soul. In the Septuagint, which is the Greek Old Testament, the prophets use the word to describe those who endure the severity of exile with patience and hope that God — not man– will eventually bring forth justice.

“For I will leave in the midst of you a meek and lowly people. They shall seek refuge in the name of the Lord, those who are left in Israel… For they shall pasture and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.” (Zepheniah 3:12-13)
​

God expects his faithful people to be meek and lowly. He will bring justice and peace to them — not in this age, but in the age to come.
The clearest interpretation for Jesus’ use of the word “meek” is seen in Psalm 37 (LXX 36:8-11):

“Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath. Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil. For the wicked shall be cut off; but those who wait for the Lord will possess the land. Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Though you look well at his place, he will not be there. But the meek shall possess the land, and delight themselves in an abundance of peace.”
​

The psalm tells us to leave vindication to God. We are to be meek –gentle, patient, long-suffering — until God brings about His justice in His time. Will the state ever exist in such patient meekness? Evidently not — but the state belongs to this age which is passing away. Christians belong to the age to come. It cannot be Gospel-loving Christians who cry out for the state to carry out vengeance. It is the meek, not those who demand an eye for an eye, who are the blessed inheritors of the Kingdom. So says the Word of God. In fact, He says that He Himself is “meek and lowly in heart,” and that we are to take up ourselves the “light” and “easy” yoke of this lowly meekness. (Matt. 11:29)
Jesus is the King who comes to us “meek and sitting upon an ass.” (Mt 21:5) The mission of Jesus takes place on earth in lowliness and meekness. His life is not a life at court. In Matthew 21:5, the entry of Jesus into Jerusalem is depicted as that of a nonviolent, non-warlike king of salvation and peace. In this respect, Jesus stands radically opposed to the Zealots and to all champions of a political Messianism.
In the Beatitude of Matthew 5:5 we read of the “meek” who, out of their oppressed situation, depend not on their own will but the gracious will of God. To them Jesus promises the inheritance of the coming aeon, which includes secure dwelling in their own land. (V. Hauck, S. Schulz, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. VI, p. 649)
We who assume the name Christian are to follow Him in the way of meekness and lowliness. We cannot venerate the Lord while we follow a way other than the one He treads before us.
On several occasions, Jesus Christ comes face to face with the issue of violence for retribution or self-defense, with the issue of capital punishment. In John 8, Jesus comes to the Temple, sits down as a rabbi would, and teaches the people. The scribes and Pharisees gather to put Him to the test. They bring forward a woman caught in adultery, presumably a married woman. The penalty prescribed for this in Deuteronomy 22 is death by stoning. (There are still some countries, like Saudi Arabia, where adultery is a capital offense for women today.)
As we know from John 18:31, the Romans had taken away from the Jews the right to administer capital punishment. The hypocrites who test Jesus ask him about applying the Deuteronomic law, and demand, “What do you say about her?” This is meant as a trap for Jesus, involving both the Jewish law and the prerogatives of the Roman state. But Jesus simply bends down and writes with his finger on the ground, just as His divine finger once inscribed the Law upon the tablets of stone on Sinai. Then He says, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And again He bends down to write in the dust.
The words He writes send the strict enforcers of the law of retribution stealing away in silent confusion. Jesus asks the condemned woman: “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She answers, “No one, Lord.” No one — neither the self-righteous nor God. “Neither, do I condemn you,” He says. “Go and do not sin again.” (John 8:2-11)
The point is this: The Word of God foregoes enforcement of the strict law of retribution. This is not just a personal commutation of sentence. For He also dispels the condemners who would take God’s authority over life and death upon themselves. To avoid falling prematurely into a political trap, Jesus does this silently, by shaming the devotees of capital punishment. By His actions He sets aside the law of retaliation.
Likewise, in the Sermon on the Mount, He overturns the principle of retaliation (Exodus 21:24, Deuteronomy 19:21):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth… ‘But I say to you: Do not resist one who is evil. But, if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matt. 5:38-39)
​

Do you see how much farther the Word of God goes than just forbidding vengeance? He commands forgiveness and even love of persecutors. (Matt. 5:43-44, Luke 6:27-28) We poor sinners may fail to carry out this command, but let us not confuse the spirit of the Gospel with the barbaric cry for blood-vengeance that rise from the same mouths that dare to say, “Our Father… forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
Jesus Provides the Example

Does Jesus merely tell us how to deal with those who offend and transgress? No. He provides the example that we can only set aside if we want to give up Christ altogether and return to the Old Law. When the evildoers come to seize Him in Gethsemane so that they can inflict upon Him an unjust death, an apostle takes a sword and slashes off the ear of one of those who come to seize and slay the Son of God. But Jesus says to him: “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matt. 26:52) Then, according to Luke 22:51, He touches the ear of the wounded man and heals him.
The constant interpretation of this passage in early Christian times was that wielders of the sword of vengeance — the judge, the executioner, (by modern standards, the judge or jurist seeking the death penalty) — all these fall under this threat. They all participate, as the murderous criminal does, in the shedding of blood, the taking of life. And they too become marked by the experience, cursed by their own bloodletting.
St. Cyprian, the third century bishop-martyr of Carthage, makes it clear that it doesn’t matter whether the murderous retaliation comes from an individual or from the state. Killing is killing.
The world is drenched with mutual bloodshed. When individuals slay a man, it is a crime. When killing takes place on behalf of the state, it is called a virtue. (To Donatus, 6)
Whether or not the state sanctions it, says St. Cyprian, the Christian can have no part in the shedding of blood: “…after the reception of the Eucharist, the hand is not to be stained with the sword or bloodshed.” (On the Goodness of Patience, 14)
Finally, we have Jesus’ ultimate sermon of active love on the cross. The mob cries out for capital punishment for him, marking themselves with blood: “His blood be on us.” (Matt. 27:25) They call for the death penalty for Him — one of the countless times from that day to this that innocent people have been sentenced by courts to die. But the God-Man, hanging beaten, mocked, and naked upon the cross, wants no vengeance. His words resound in our ears and throughout all time, the living testimony of God for all who really look to Him to know the way of life: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:24)
Not avenge them, not slay them, but “forgive them.” The answer to this question of capital punishment, and to every question of violence, is not to be found in the words of political theorists, of demagogues, of talk show babblers, or even of the aggrieved victims of violent crime. The answer is to be found in the words and actions of Jesus Christ, who is always the Father’s positive answer, His “Yes” to life.
Fr. Thomas Mueller is pastor of SS Cyril and Methodius Orthodox Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and Dean of the Chicago Deanery of the Orthodox Church of America. He is a member of the Orthodox Peace Fellowship.


He is canonical Orthodox priest of the OCA his perspective wil do for me .....

God bless,
philothei

 

[Philothei]

Some more support from other Churches against CP.

Religious Opinion on Capital Punishment

The religious community in Illinois has also strengthened its call for a re-examination of capital punishment. On July 26, 2000, the Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago issued a Council Statement on the Death Penalty, in which the Council stated that while its members have different opinions about the death penalty in theory, "[w]e are nevertheless united in the conviction that there is now overwhelming and persuasive evidence that in practice the administration of the death penalty in our society is often flawed and unjust. Its use should be indefinitely suspended." The Council is comprised of approximately forty of the heads of many of the principal faith communities in metropolitan Chicago.​

Religious groups also testified against the death penalty at the Governor’s Commission public hearings. Representatives of the Archdiocese of Chicago and Cardinal George, the Greek Orthodox Diocese of Chicago, the Jewish Council on Urban Affairs and Sojourn, the social action committees of Reform Judaism, were among those who spoke against capital punishment.​

An interfaith forum held in Evanston highlighted growing concern among the religious community about capital punishment in Illinois. In September, nearly 1,000 clergy and laypersons gathered to learn more about the flaws and injustices associated with the death penalty system.​

http://www.icadp.org/page15.html​

Also this:

http://www.christconn.org/pscapitalpunishment.htm

 

[Slambo]

Is Matthew 5:38-39 an just an instruction for individual behaviour or is it binding across the board since it is a clear mandate on how to behave? I haven't read the whole thread and don't intend to so it this particular verse has already been addressed, just point me to the pertinent post. Thanks.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Xpy,

Your concern regarding the use of CP in nations that are non- or even anti-Christian has a lot of merit behind it, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you.

The mandate comes in (I believe) whenever God's people have been graciously granted the reigns of government. The only divine blueprint we have for conducting civil affairs in a righteous and holy manner is found in the O.T., and anything beyond that comes from man seeking to be autonomous.

I don't deny that there have been many sincere and holy men in the history of the Church who rejected capital punishment on principle, and I would be the last to deny them their proper place in the Kingdom of God. Some pacifists were martyrs, and I don't deny them the glory of their martyrdom or sainthood, either. Nevertheless, on this issue, I think they were in error.

Paleo,

I still don't understand your reasoning on the "mandate" POV. I'm not trying to be emotional or difficult. BUt I think it would help me if you could show how CP IS to be used (according to God's plan). I mean, surely there are standards. How should it be applied? Surely CP, even in your extreme view (I don't mean extreme in the bad way, but just showing that you are on the furthest end of the spectrum saying that it must exist in all societies for all time because it is necesarily part of God's plan, where as the other extreme would be to say that it should never exist anywhere because it is always wrong) you recognize that CP can be abused. In your view, when does the application of CP cease to follow God's plan. More importantly, what does the Church say definitively about this? I understand that it probably won't be super specific, but even an explanation from the Church that it is vague. When do we use it? What does it mean if it is inequally distributed? What does it mean for a nation if we find that we (as a democratic society) have killed an innocent man (despite what some believe, innocent people have been found on death row... and I mean innocent, not just technically not guilty)... are we not held accountable for that?


A lot of questions that I need responses to in order understand where you are coming from. Even as a fundamentalist protestant I never came across the idea that it MUST be available or that my state was perhaps going against God's Will for not having the DP. Of course, I never debated about this much as a protestant (or really as an Orthodox) so certainly it is possible that such a view is actually quite common.

Thanks in advance.

Xpy

 

[Philothei]

jackstraw is right. I'll I'm seeing is emotion without reason. There is really no point in continuing to dialogue until someone actually deals cogently with the evidence offered in this thread, both biblical and from the fathers such as Chrysostom and Augustine.

At the same time both of these Fathers have not writen anything that could be used for or against CP only support the notion that one has to obey the State, in order to be in good standing with the Goven't and the country that he/she is in. I agree to that as far. If you take that command (to obay the laws of the State) and try to "theologize" it and interprete it to say that the Fahters agree with the State then you are manipulating the Fathers ... (to your convenience) to say that they are pro CP.... Also,I do not see the "need" in the Fathers writings to "establish" CP in all nations, as per saying a command from Christ himself or the Church either. Like I stated before, and there are many sources to validate it, during Byzantine times not all criminals ended up in the dead penalty. Most of them were treated, given a life sentence. Although you wil not agree to that it is common fact that most of the criminals are mentally unstable... and need for medication and treatment. Knowing that the Byzantnes again who had some more medical knowledge did respond to that and "spared" the lives of such people. The same happened with the demoniac who Christ healed. If it was up to Jews or Greeks or any other people ... that boy would be dead by now. We know how ancient societies "coped" with mental illnesses, mostly they just would either confined the individual or if they become to much of a burden to society they would put them to death. If this boy had killed anyone for sure they would have stoned him to death. Christ came to bring hope the hopeless and a deep understanding of who we are to our neighbours, who is our neighbour and who we are vis-a-vis to God. Relationships changed... the murderer had to make ammends with the family of the murdered... forgiveness came instead of revenge. Murder for Murder and tooth for tooth and an eye for an eye was the old law but Christ brought forth the "turn the other cheeck"... And to answer Slabo's question (although I do not know if it was for me or Paleo) yes, turning the other cheek is not ONLY for individual ethics it is for Christian communities and for extension nations to do. It advocates how trusting in God is much more superior and praying for one's enemy's much more powerful. It is no wonder that while Christians were percecuted undte the Romans and they martyred we have so many roman soldiers who converted to Christianity by those very martyrs....because of their prayers and their fervent faith in God's deliverrence.

God bless,
Philothei

God bless,
Philothei