Orthodoxy and Capital Punishment

[nutroll]

well of course. im arguing that theres nothing wrong with the principle of the DP, not that we MUST have it.

But notice that what I said is that laws are for our good, not that they are good in and of themselves. I would agree that there is nothing wrong with a society having the DP, to the extent that we are to be obedient to the government we live under. But that does not mean that when we have a choice in the matter that we should choose to have the DP. What if, hypothetically, your government had the DP, and each of the citizens could be called upon to actually execute someone personally. Like Jury Duty. Your number comes up, and you are supposed to pull the switch, the trigger, or inject the chemicals. Should a Christian actually take part in this? If you would not do it personally, how can you vote for it to be done on your behalf?

 

[jckstraw72]

i would look to Romans 13 to see how St. Paul describes a government and its power .... he doesnt specify only governments back then, or only secular governments, or only religious governments, he just says this is what a government is and does with power given by God.

 

[Thekla]

did ya'll check out Xpy's post #203? its the only thats made me stop and think really ...

and I agree with him -- it is consistent with the "mindset" issue; this is an example of mercy and the recognition that we are all sinners.

 

[Thekla]

i would look to Romans 13 to see how St. Paul describes a government and its power .... he doesnt specify only governments back then, or only secular governments, or only religious governments, he just says this is what a government is and does with power given by God.

but in theory, it is in our power to "alter (or abolish)" our government.
What then ?

 

[jckstraw72]

and I agree with him -- it is consistent with the "mindset" issue; this is an example of mercy and the recognition that we are all sinners.

si, the way he presented it was compelling to my mind. im sorry if this offends anyone, but i see the other arguments as attempts to skirt around God's justice, especially as seen in the OT (not only the Law -- Genesis 9:6) and basically the entire government passage in Romans 13. Its St. Paul that says the government is the ordinance of God, not me ... but no one likes it when I say it.

 

[jckstraw72]

but in theory, it is in our power to "alter (or abolish)" our government.
What then ?

i dont understand what youre asking .... why would we abolish government which God has given to us for orderly living?

 

[jckstraw72]

anyhoo im peacing out. good night ya'll.

 

[Thekla]

si, the way he presented it was compelling to my mind. im sorry if this offends anyone, but i see the other arguments as attempts to skirt around God's justice, especially as seen in the OT (not only the Law -- Genesis 9:6) and basically the entire government passage in Romans 13. Its St. Paul that says the government is the ordinance of God, not me ... but no one likes it when I say it.

not at all ... I don't recall anyone staging the jailbreak of a death row inmate. We do obey our law. St. John Chrysostom merely states, as does St. Paul and St. Basil -- that we obey the civil authorities. Because the civil authorities are the ordinance of God.

But if St. David and Cain (and likely others) are the exceptions to the rule -- then there is room for the DP to not be "required". And, as we live in a democratic state, we may appeal to the teachings of the Church when we vote.

 

[Thekla]

i dont understand what youre asking .... why would we abolish government which God has given to us for orderly living?

its in the preamble to the US Constitution

 

[nutroll]

si, the way he presented it was compelling to my mind. im sorry if this offends anyone, but i see the other arguments as attempts to skirt around God's justice, especially as seen in the OT (not only the Law -- Genesis 9:6) and basically the entire government passage in Romans 13. Its St. Paul that says the government is the ordinance of God, not me ... but no one likes it when I say it.

No one is skirting around God's Justice. God can strike any one of us dead at any moment for our sins, in fact, you mentioned Ananias and Sapphira, and that is a clear example of God not having us execute his wrath upon others, but allowing God to handle things Himself. No one has any problem with Romans 13, we just have a problem with your interpretation of it. It is not an institution of a type of government, it is a recognition of a reality within government. Nowhere does St. Paul say that we must have the DP, and you yourself say that we don't have to have it. So if we don't have to have it, why should we? What good comes of it? It doesn't even serve as a real deterrent, which is basically what St. Paul is saying in Romans 13, that we should use the fear of punishment to compel us to do what is good.

 

[paleodoxy]

Just so no one confuses my arguments with jackstraw's: I don't believe the DP is optional. I believe we have to have it. There is no evidence to show that God changed His mind after instituting in in the Law.

 

[Thekla]

Just so no one confuses my arguments with jackstraw's: I don't believe the DP is optional. I believe we have to have it. There is no evidence to show that God changed His mind after instituting in in the Law.

a question;

about a previous concern that has taken on personal significance, though for investigation I don't have a difficulty separating the personal (so you may feel comfortable answering)

per the comments about the "penalty" for incorrigible youth:

what, if any, allowance should be made for recent findings
(ex.s, the age span for brain maturation, the effects of sleep deprivation and findings about adolescent sleep patterns, the inverse hormonal response to stress/soothing interactions in adolescents) ?

 

[paleodoxy]

the frontal cortex is not fully developed until about age 25 (this new finding was anticipated by the auto insurance industry-- its when rates drop).

what causes incorrigible human behavior ? now you're getting into nature/nurture territory -- it'll be many years til the answer is even dimly available.

Why do you rely on modern studies in psychology and brain development instead of trusting Scripture on this?

According to studies of O.T. Law performed in conjunction with Scripture, historical Jewish practice, etc. incorrigible behavior involved things like carousing, public drunkenness, brawling and fighting, stealing, destruction of public or private property, rioting and civil disturbance, stalking and sexual harrassment, etc.

From what I remember, once the parents brought their son before the elder or judge on three or more separate occasions for similar incidents as those just mentioned, and no amount of discipline imposed by the parents and the judge worked after repeated opportunities to reform, then the young man could receive the DP.

 

[Thekla]

Why do you rely on modern studies in psychology and brain development instead of trusting Scripture on this?

According to studies of O.T. Law performed in conjunction with Scripture, historical Jewish practice, etc. incorrigible behavior involved things like carousing, public drunkenness, brawling and fighting, stealing, destruction of public or private property, rioting and civil disturbance, stalking and sexual harrassment, etc.

From what I remember, once the parents brought their son before the elder or judge on three or more separate occasions for similar incidents as those just mentioned, and no amount of discipline imposed by the parents and the judge worked after repeated opportunities to reform, then the young man could receive the DP.

Orthodoxy has always acknowledged that science has its place: I personally find much of what passes for psychology "bunk". But science is a different thing. In some areas, science oversteps its bounds. But where it does not, it is also a gift.

Christ did not haul the demon possessed off to court, but healed them. Likewise, He healed physical illness as well.

 

[paleodoxy]

Orthodoxy has always acknowledged that science has its place: I personally find much of what passes for psychology "bunk". But science is a different thing. In some areas, science oversteps its bounds. But where it does not, it is also a gift.

Christ did not haul the demon possessed off to court, but healed them. Likewise, He healed physical illness as well.

I agree that science has its place - when it is not contradicting God's Word. If it does that, then their science is wrong.

Demon possession is a special case not coming under the conventional laws.

 

[Thekla]

, public drunkenness, brawling and fighting, stealing, destruction of public or private property, rioting and civil disturbance, stalking and sexual harrassment, etc.

these may be "symptoms" of failures in the home environment, or indicative of an "epileptic behavioral cluster", or untreated psychosis or even diabetes.

For example, a study released in 2006 (?) identified a unique metabolic and glucose profile in the spinal fluid of aprox. 30% of schizophrenics; these individuals clustered within a subtype of schizophrenia.

Individuals with 22q11 deletion syndrome have a remarkably increased risk of developing full blown bipolar disorder. One of the hallmark symptoms of the manic phase of bipolar is sexual "promiscuity".

Any individual in the throes of active psychosis may become violent (agitation). Behavioral approaches are useless before stabilization.


IIRC, schizophrenia, bipolar and Alzheimer's all carry overlapping but somewhat unique, testable olfactory deficits.

Early Onset (EOS) and Very Early Onset Schizophrenia (VEOS) both are preceded by what has been charachterized as a "forest fire" in the brain -- burning off grey matter from the rear to the front of the brain.

If the DP is demanded, should an attempt be made to determine the "willful agency" of the offender.

 

[paleodoxy]

Thekla,

When and if there are known medical conditions that have been scientifically verified, mercy could be granted in those cases, and prayer, council, medicine and ecclesiastical measures may have to be taken. (I cannot verify whether the studies you have cited are accurate or not, so I hesitate to make a judgment, although I generally distrust appeals to science on moral questions, as science is often used as a tool to deny the reality of sin.)

Again, you keep bringing up exceptions, as though the exceptions disprove the rule. Are you saying God was scientifically ignorant and also unjust?

 

[Thekla]

Thekla,

When and if there are known medical conditions that have been scientifically verified, mercy could be granted in those cases, and prayer, council, medicine and ecclesiastical measures may have to be taken. (I cannot verify whether the studies you have cited are accurate or not, so I hesitate to make a judgment, although I generally distrust appeals to science on moral questions, as science is often used as a tool to deny the reality of sin.)

Again, you keep bringing up exceptions, as though the exceptions disprove the rule. Are you saying God was scientifically ignorant and also unjust?

I mention the exceptions because we have no clear evidence that at any point in time they were other than the "rule". What God permits, we should be thankful for. However, if science is a gift, do we not have some responsibility to responsibly appeal to its findings ? Can we not also consider that future findings may reveal more "exceptions" ? I tend to the GOA statement that recommends caution where clear evidence of a broken justice system prevails.

For verification of these findings, you can research the particular topics on PubMed (if you have any difficulty, I can point you to narrowed search terms and/or other respectable websites).

 

[Thekla]

Just to explain; the "exceptions" are my attempt to understand the application of something unfamiliar through the investigation of its ability to handle something "familiar" to me.

Regardless of historical examples, the contemporary world is where you 'propose to enact' this particular system. (For my part, I should probably study Puritan practices ... did they use OT Biblical law -- what other examples are available?). In any case, the contemporary environment - including science - should be considered.

Clearly, if the DP were available for some of the reasons mentioned,
we may have a safer society. On the other hand, humans tend to errors of all sorts; the witch trials mentioned by Philothei are an example. (On a side note, IIRC, the historian John Demos, in Entertaining Satan, found that in witch trials other than Salem, social or economic mobility - up or down - was experienced by many of the accused prior to the accusation.) To what extent is error, miscarriage of justice, acceptable in such a system ? Is there room for redress ? Further, to reintroduce an earlier question, if a body/soul/spirit can be given the DP, what of the corpus without a soul (business). Who "pays", the CEO, an underling, or is the corporation dissolved ?

Does the threat of the DP deter crime or also introduce potential deliberate distortions into the system (lying, etc) ? How can the potential use of the DP for political expediency be avoided ? To what extent is responsibility applied: if a situation requiring the DP can have been avoided by some intervention, does the failure to intervene also indicate (shared) culpability (and the same penalty) ?

If the DP is applied as outlined in the OT, a disproportionate number of people with untreated MI will likely be executed.
This is why I mentioned this "exception". In this case, how do we avoid the possibility that we are just "culling from the herd the inconvenient members" ?

Although my questions may seem (or be) far afield from a discussion of Orthodoxy or the OT, it is because we live in a secular state with a particularly western understanding of Christianity.
As a struggling to be Christian in the Orthodox Church, this a consideration I cannot neglect to investigate. Christ "civilized" society; the OT takes us from the law of the jungle (might makes right), to the law of man (an eye for an eye). The NT takes us further.
This is not because God changed, but rather because humans "develop" -- this is also true of spiritual development.

Our modern US society and legal system seems to contain an excess of jungle law. Whether or not this is an effect of the lapse of OT law, or a peculiarity of this time, place, or the inheritance of "distortion" of Christianity, I cannot tell. Rather, a careful analysis of why and how the distortion developed, along with a close investigation of the present system, its strengths and weaknesses, is in order before any new countrywide 'system' can be introduced. As we live in a democratic society, we must also evaluate any change against our responsibility to the country as it stands. When it comes to the DP, in a sense, we have the ability to comment through our vote.

Sorry if this is disjointed -- I'm back and forth between responsibilities

 

[Thekla]

although I generally distrust appeals to science on moral questions, as science is often used as a tool to deny the reality of sin.)

Per my reading, it is not science but its application which is sometimes used to deny the "reality of sin". This is found, in my reading, most often in "pop-psychology" rather than psychiatry, for example. Further, our present legal system, in practice, often has the same effect.