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You're fine discussing this topic here in this forum if you choose to.Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.
Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threadsSorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.
Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.
Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threads
Just you'll probably get more input there, as several people rarely venture out into General Theology. As far as I know, we are the only faith group on CF to have a sub forum where debate is actually enxouraged as long as it is respectful. Out here in GT the debates tend to get heated, resulting in locked threads
I don't think that is vague. Do you know what the difference between a parent being angry, and a parent appearing angry (perhaps purposely) to a child? Then you know what "being" is.Why EOC is so vague about their religion makes me run for my life.
Contrast the work of Abraham Paul discusses, with the one James discusses.No, that is absolutely incorrect. I wish you would back-up your comment with references, instead of these blank accusations.
Did Hitler INNATELY kill anyone? No, therefore it is not an innate (essential) quality.Huh? Serial killers and child molesters are essentially "GOOD"? What on earth are you talking about? You make it seem that no one is evil or bad in all of history; including Hitler who slaughtered millions of people. Your premise of the Fall is just off. Your premise of what we became; by One Act of Disobedience
which bought sin, death, and condemnation is just off. Satan is essentially "GOOD", really??? But you say that people cannot do good without God. So what are they then before God acts? Good??? How can that be if they need God? You have a misconception of the Fall. Because God created Adam in Perfect righteousness and holiness, perfectly capable of fulfilling all of God's commands. Adam had a free-will to choose to obey or disobey. And there were sanctions for disobedience and blessings if he obeyed God.
So what is sin in your religion? A time out?
I don't think that is vague. Do you know what the difference between a parent being angry, and a parent appearing angry (perhaps purposely) to a child? Then you know what "being" is.
Contrast the work of Abraham Paul discusses, with the one James discusses.
I don't know what accusations you are referring to.
Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?Did Hitler INNATELY kill anyone? No, therefore it is not an innate (essential) quality.
Hunans are, however, innately made by God, in the image of God. God also loves us; now does God love evil? No, God loves us because we are innately good. God does not need to be reconciled to us, we need to be reconciled to God. "God so hated the world that he gave his only begotten Son." Does that sound right?
Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies.
Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?
Yes, we believe we are made in God's image. But that image is now marred by sin. God cast us out of paradise because of it. Our suffering & misery was bought upon us all because of sin. Death & condemnation is the consequence we face because of sin.
Wasn't meant to sound secretive. Just meant you would get more EO responses to your questions about Orthodoxy if you posted there. Some of the EO don't venture outside the TAW sites.Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.
I'm pretty sure God places pardon and forgiveness far beyond justice, unlike "civil society" (the world)."APPEARING ANGRY"??? I am a parent. And if my kids are disobedient, yes I get angry. And punish them for what they have done. When I disobeyed my Mother, I got punished. But you seem to suggest that punishment or being angry is just a façade. God hates sin, and punishes people who sin. Just like n civil society. When people break the Law, they face the consequences of it through court who render the justice.
I never suggested they contradict each other, I said they were using the term "works" in distinct ways.People think that Paul & James contradict each other. And this couldn't be farther from the truth.
Was it Adam's innate quality to disobey God? Was it Lucifer's?Huh??? Adam's progeny is form in sin from the womb. But I will follow along with your logic. So if Hitler is essentially good, then why did he murder millions of people? Remember you said therefore it is not an innate quality. So where did Hitler get his hatred for the Jews? Where did his desire to "KILL" come from? If he does not have an innate quality to do so. Then why did he do it?
Innate qualities are not works, that precisely is the essence-energies distinction.Yes, we believe we are made in God's image. But that image is now marred by sin. God cast us out of paradise because of it. Our suffering & misery was bought upon us all because of sin. Death & condemnation is the consequence we face because of sin.
Romans 5:8 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
God loves us even WHILE we are STILL SINNERS!! That's the Gospel of Grace!!! But even here in your comments, you place the works of sinners as the condition why God loves us. And that is a error to God who justifies the ungodly. Who went home Justified the Tax Collector or the Self-Righteous Pharisee who boast about his religious works???
And for the record "CHRIST" is our reconciliation; our mediator; our surety. In Him we are reconciled to God.
I know Sin in Orthodoxy is dissonance with the divine energies. That's the problem why you do not understand God's Grace in human bondage to sin.
I would say trying to shoehorn support for Israel or capitalism into Christianity is just as worldly, yes.Eh, I don't think that's entirely fair. If the Episcopal Church is worldly, it's no more so than any other branch of Western Christianity, liberal or conservative, as they all tend to define themselves in relation to modern secular society, either positively or negatively. Being in a constant state of reactionary rage seems by far the more dangerous of the two options.
Yes I believe in the Biblical teaching of TD. BTW thanks for providing more detail.The topic seems to be "Original Sin".
I would presume that if you are a convinced Calvinist your POV is that of 'Total Depravity' or something similar.
The fall and the consequence of Adam's sin.
The Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam and Eve committed (except them) but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. The consequences and penalties of this ancestral act are transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human is a descendant of Adam then 'no one is free from the implications of this sin' (which is human death) and that the only way to be freed from this is through baptism.
In The Orthodox Way, Bishop Kallistos Ware writes it this way:
The Orthodox tradition, without minimizing the effects of the fall, does not however believe that it resulted in a 'total depravity', such as the Calvinists assert in their more pessimistic moments. The divine image in man was obscured but not obliterated. His free choice has been restricted in its exercise but not destroyed. Even in a fallen world man is still capable of generous self-sacrifice and loving compassion. Even in a fallen world man still retains some knowledge of God and can enter by grace into communion with him. There are many saints in the pages of the Old Testament, men and women such as Abraham and Sarah, Joseph and Moses, Elijah and Jeremiah; and outside the Chosen People of Israel there are figures such as Socrates who not only taught the truth but lived it. Yet it remains true that human sin -- the original sin of Adam, compounded by the personal sins of each succeeding generation -- has set a gulf between God and man such that man by his own efforts could not bridge..
..The doctrine of original sin means rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin.
I'll check it out. ThanksWasn't meant to sound secretive. Just meant you would get more EO responses to your questions about Orthodoxy if you posted there. Some of the EO don't venture outside the TAW sites.
Was it Adam's innate quality to disobey God? Was it Lucifer's?
Yes I understand your POV. But you have problems in explaining away why we and Satan sinned. Can you explain to me as if I was a 2 year old. In other words you need to spell it out for this dummy. Sorry I am slow, and need a simple explanation.Innate qualities are not works, that precisely is the essence-energies distinction.
Amen!! Why & how did Christ reconcile sinful humanity to God?Yes, that is the whole point of the incarnation, to reconcile humanity to God.
I don't think God judges you for your essence, but for your actions. If your essence were evil, not only would it be strange to judge you for it, it would also be strange to hold you accountable for evil actions, since you would not be responsible for them.
Now I think it is time you answered a few of my questions. How do you respond to Luther saying we should "sin boldly" and feel no contrition?
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