Orthodox view on the "Nephilim"

[mark kennedy]

I think this is the best explanation (granted does not perfectly fit into the pseudographia). The giants were simply the result of sin and drug abuse and deformities.
For example in the book of Enoch its not only the women that were corrupted but the men as well.

1. (Angels) took unto themselves wives... and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells...(ch 6)

These same fallen Angel's corrupted the males:
1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their way (ch7)
The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter IX

I looked up Azâzêl, apparently the name of a fallen angel, a name associated with the scapegoat rite in Leviticus 16. Azazel is said to have been a corrupting influence, according to your source, teaching the sons of men great violence, one of the things that condemned the antediluvian world. I've spent a lot of time on genomics, only in the 20th century did we come to realize the amazing world of DNA and how it constructs life, from amino acids, to molecular mechanisms, to cellular organelles, to living systems, to population genetics. I won't bore you with Mendelian genetics but if you are into molecular biology it's a fascinating study. At any rate, the description from Enoch sounds like the rise of idolatry in the antediluvian world, this is clearly describing a demonic influence. We know angels do not marry or are given in marriage, it's also safe to assume that angels don't normally procreate. What we don't know, is whether or not they could as the text in Genesis would suggest. The thought is disturbing to say the very least, I know the angels are powerful but whether or not they are capable of genetic manipulation is well out of my depth. I'll only say, it's conceivable.

I take the Scriptures literally, specifically the historical narratives of the Pentateuch are beyond skepticism in my estimation. Opinions vary, I'm not here to offer an apologetic defense of my views, only to be clear that I hold them. Upon looking into the Nephilim I have little recourse but to look the term up in the Old Testament. The term for Nephilim is nĕphiyl (H5303 נָפִיל nĕphiyl), from the Hebrew root naphal (H5307 נָפַל), often translated 'fell', I think what we are looking at here are fallen angels which necessarily means demons.

Genetic deformities, hybrids, manipulation...I don't really know. The Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon makes this remark,

‘Gigg. and Cast. render, great, large in body; but this is incorrect; for it means excellent, noble, skillful. I prefer with the Hebrew interpreters…falling on, attacking, so that it is of intransitive signification. Those who used to interpret the passage in Genesis of the fall of angels, were accustomed to render it ‘fallers, rebels, apostates’. (Gesenius)
​

Cain kills Able in Genesis 4, it wasn't very long before Lamech had slain a man for injuring him, I think it was all down hill after that.

The word suggests tyrants, bullies, highly skilled demonically inspired warriors with no honor, just an insatiable thirst for violence and domination. I think these were the demons who were, 'kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day' (Jude 1:6). I think these demons are unleashed briefly, 6 months if memory serves, they represent the demonic host released from the abyss that torment the armies of the Antichrist in the tribulation.

Well that's what I got, an interesting study to be sure.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[TheLostCoin]

I looked up Azâzêl, apparently the name of a fallen angel, a name associated with the scapegoat rite in Leviticus 16. Azazel is said to have been a corrupting influence, according to your source, teaching the sons of men great violence, one of the things that condemned the antediluvian world. I've spent a lot of time on genomics, only in the 20th century did we come to realize the amazing world of DNA and how it constructs life, from amino acids, to molecular mechanisms, to cellular organelles, to living systems, to population genetics. I won't bore you with Mendelian genetics but if you are into molecular biology it's a fascinating study. At any rate, the description from Enoch sounds like the rise of idolatry in the antediluvian world, this is clearly describing a demonic influence. We know angels do not marry or are given in marriage, it's also safe to assume that angels don't normally procreate. What we don't know, is whether or not they could as the text in Genesis would suggest. The thought is disturbing to say the very least, I know the angels are powerful but whether or not they are capable of genetic manipulation is well out of my depth. I'll only say, it's conceivable.

I take the Scriptures literally, specifically the historical narratives of the Pentateuch are beyond skepticism in my estimation. Opinions vary, I'm not here to offer an apologetic defense of my views, only to be clear that I hold them. Upon looking into the Nephilim I have little recourse but to look the term up in the Old Testament. The term for Nephilim is nĕphiyl (H5303 נָפִיל nĕphiyl), from the Hebrew root naphal (H5307 נָפַל), often translated 'fell', I think what we are looking at here are fallen angels which necessarily means demons.

Genetic deformities, hybrids, manipulation...I don't really know. The Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon makes this remark,

‘Gigg. and Cast. render, great, large in body; but this is incorrect; for it means excellent, noble, skillful. I prefer with the Hebrew interpreters…falling on, attacking, so that it is of intransitive signification. Those who used to interpret the passage in Genesis of the fall of angels, were accustomed to render it ‘fallers, rebels, apostates’. (Gesenius)
​

Cain kills Able in Genesis 4, it wasn't very long before Lamech had slain a man for injuring him, I think it was all down hill after that.

The word suggests tyrants, bullies, highly skilled demonically inspired warriors with no honor, just an insatiable thirst for violence and domination. I think these were the demons who were, 'kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day' (Jude 1:6). I think these demons are unleashed briefly, 6 months if memory serves, they represent the demonic host released from the abyss that torment the armies of the Antichrist in the tribulation.

Well that's what I got, an interesting study to be sure.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The problem with your conclusion is that the "Nephilim" aren't the angels - they are the "giants" born from the "Sons of God" (which are, for those who interpret the Angelic view, "the angels" which reproduced with people).

Nephilim can be interpreted as having a root of "to fall" from the Hebrew "napheel," there is a problem with that root as pointed out in the video I explained. There's another explanation that the word comes from an Aramaic root "nafeel" or "nophyl," which means "giant," and this explanation, according to the video, is more logical, given that the word is used elsewhere in the Bible and in it's grammatical declension, it makes no sense in those other contexts if we interpret it as "fallen ones."

In addition to the Aramaic solving this discrepancy, the Septuagint Bible literally uses "giant" (gigantes) in place of this word, and later, the Vulgate Bible uses the word "giant" (also gigantes, borrowing from the Greek).

 

[mark kennedy]

The problem with your conclusion is that the "Nephilim" aren't the angels - they are the "giants" born from the "Sons of God" (which are, for those who interpret the Angelic view, "the angels" which reproduced with people).

Also, Nephilim can be interpreted as having a root of "to fall" from the Hebrew "napheel," there is a problem with that root as pointed out in the video I explained. There's another explanation that the word comes from an Aramaic root "nafeel" or "nophyl," which means "giant," and this explanation, according to the video, is more logical, given that the word is used elsewhere in the Bible and in it's grammatical declension, it makes no sense in those other contexts if we interpret it as "fallen ones."

In addition to the Aramaic solving this discrepancy, both the Septuagint Bible and Vulgate Bible interpret the term literally as "giant."

According to Gesenius, it more accurately means 'excellent, noble, skillful'. The linguistic scholarship looks a lot more appealing then a more superficial rendering of the word. The video doesn't offer much in the way of substantive source material and I prefer to do my own research using sources I know are reliable. Opinions vary, it looks like we have an honest disagreement with regards to source material.

 

[TheLostCoin]

If we are going to interpret the Book of Genesis more literally, the angelic view to me makes no sense - like, if God condemns the demons to Tartarus for their crimes and then floods the world, killing everyone (presumably) except for Noah and his sons, how do the Israelites later find Nephilim with the Cannanites? And later, how does Goliath, a Nephilim, become a military leader of the Philistines?

If demons can copulate with humans after this supposed condemnation, why do we not have "virgin births" today? And considering that demons love humans falling prey to lust, what woman would they not touch?

 

[TheLostCoin]

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[mark kennedy]

If we are going to interpret the Book of Genesis more literally, the angelic view to me makes no sense - like, if God condemns the demons to Tartarus for their crimes and then floods the world, killing everyone (presumably) except for Noah and his sons, how do the Israelites later find Nephilim with the Cannanites?

If demons can copulate with humans after this supposed condemnation, why do we not have "virgin births" (quote on quote) today? And considering that demons love humans falling prey to lust, what woman would they not touch?

In a literal interpretation, especially with regards to the New Testament witness, the offspring of the Nephilim seem to be obviously the product of fallen angels in one way or the other. Perhaps there were giants in Canaan, how tall was Goliath? Maybe some of them were of larger stature going even into the time of David, that makes perfect sense to me. I don't think what is in light here is physical stature, although that seems to be a factor, but the kind of wisdom that comes from demons.

 

[TheLostCoin]

In a literal interpretation, especially with regards to the New Testament witness, the offspring of the Nephilim seem to be obviously the product of fallen angels in one way or the other. Perhaps there were giants in Canaan, how tall was Goliath? Maybe some of them were of larger stature going even into the time of David, that makes perfect sense to me. I don't think what is in light here is physical stature, although that seems to be a factor, but the kind of wisdom that comes from demons.

But how could there be copulation with demons after these demons have been condemned (which would necessarily be the case if everyone but Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark were killed)? And why wouldn't we have any virgin births or giants today?

 

[TheLostCoin]

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[mark kennedy]

But how could there be copulation with demons after these demons have been condemned (which would necessarily be the case if everyone but Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark were killed)? And why wouldn't we have any virgin births or giants today?

I don't know about virgin births, I don't see that anywhere in the texts. Why don't we have the giants, or men of renown today? It's got a lot to do with the demons responsible for it, being chained in the abyss until the end of the age.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I don't know about virgin births, I don't see that anywhere in the texts. Why don't we have the giants, or men of renown today? It's got a lot to do with the demons responsible for it, being chained in the abyss until the end of the age.

Yeah but the Bible has Nephilim after the flood which is my point.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yeah but the Bible has Nephilim after the flood which is my point.

They had giants in the time of David, Goliath was six foot nine. We have them to this day, ever watch the NFL. What is indicated by the word used in Genesis isn't that they were giants, as much as they were somehow enhanced demonically. Like I say, we have that to this day, how tall they are is kind of beside the point.

 

[TheLostCoin]

They had giants in the time of David, Goliath was six foot nine. We have them to this day, ever watch the NFL. What is indicated by the word used in Genesis isn't that they were giants, as much as they were somehow enhanced demonically. Like I say, we have that to this day, how tall they are is kind of beside the point.

The Book of Enoch - the extra biblical book which claims that the giants were offspring of angels, and which Saint Peter and Saint Jude reference - claims the giants were hundreds of feet tall

 

[prodromos]

The Book of Enoch - the extra biblical book which claims that the giants were offspring of angels, and which Saint Peter and Saint Jude reference - claims the giants were hundreds of feet tall

Even as infants they would have needed more food than a few families could have provided. Logistically, I don't see how they could have existed.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Even as infants they would have needed more food than a few families could have provided. Logistically, I don't see how they could have existed.

Yeah, I don’t know.
This whole controversy btw has planted massive seeds of doubt in my Faith, because it seems logical that Saint Jude did believe in it, and he seems to explicitly reference it happening. After all, he references it a matter of factly and then immediately references Sodom and Gomorrah, which is part of the Old Testament.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Book of Enoch - the extra biblical book which claims that the giants were offspring of angels, and which Saint Peter and Saint Jude reference - claims the giants were hundreds of feet tall

The reference of Jude and Peter to tartarus and binding then in a dark place is in reference to the 200 angels (there were only 200 of them altogether) that defiled themselves with the women and for teaching the technological secrets to men before their time. The hybrid giants killed off in the flood but since they were angelic spirits they remain on the earth as regular demons, they were never bound in darkness (according to Enoch)

 

[TheLostCoin]

The reference of Jude and Peter to tartarus and binding then in a dark place is in reference to the 200 angels (there were only 200 of them that "married" human women) that defiled themselves with the women and for teaching the technological secrets to men before their time. The hybrid giants killed off in the flood but since they were angelic spirits they remain on the earth as regular demons, they were never bound in darkness (according to Enoch)

That still makes no logical sense, because of everything I said and others have said, and it blatantly contradicts what the Church teaches now about the nature of angels.

 

[buzuxi02]

That still makes no logical sense, because of everything I said and others have said, and it blatantly contradicts what the Church teaches now about the nature of angels.

I completely reject that they literally mated with women. I believe they demonically influenced women in making narcotics, potions, cosmetics, and in seduction. This is why the sons of God (men of seth's lineage) found them so attractive and lusted after them. Some things never change.
Their offspring giants were simply tall men between 6'2 and 7'5 like Goliath.

In fact after reading Enochs account I just think the ancients needed a myth to explain dinosaur and other skeletons they saw in fossils.

 

[prodromos]

Yeah, I don’t know.
This whole controversy btw has planted massive seeds of doubt in my Faith, because it seems logical that Saint Jude did believe in it, and he seems to explicitly reference it happening. After all, he references it a matter of factly and then immediately references Sodom and Gomorrah, which is part of the Old Testament.

He only seems to reference the first chapter. I don't think we can know with any certainty if there were other versions of Enoch, since there are often long and short versions of other works. Were the following chapters additions or variations on what Enoch wrote? Was Jude even quoting from the written work or is there a Jewish oral tradition apart from the written just like the part about Michael fighting with the devil over the body of Moses? I really don't think we can make too much of Jude quoting Enoch IMO.

 

[mark kennedy]

The Book of Enoch - the extra biblical book which claims that the giants were offspring of angels, and which Saint Peter and Saint Jude reference - claims the giants were hundreds of feet tall

Peter and Jude claim no such thing and Enoch is not canonical.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As a San Francisco Giants fan and enthusiast of the Rohirrim, this conversation grows tiresome.