Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[The Liturgist]

Extol.

Well extol just means to praise enthusiastically. I praise things enthusiastically such as works of art, people, even my ergonomic pillows, but I do not worship or even venerate these things.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Extol.

worshipping involves a sacrificial offering. extolling doesn’t necessarily involve a sacrificial offering. extolling is almost done in conjunction with the offering, but what makes something worship is the sacrifice.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

what makes something worship is the sacrifice.

Can you make your case for that?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you make your case for that?

sure, read the Bible. what did the priests do in the Temple and the Tabernacle? read guys like St Ignatius of Antioch or St Justin Martyr or the Didache who go into 1st and 2nd century worship to see what the earliest Christians said.

if you check out the first hand sources, it’s hard to make a case against it.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

sure, read the Bible. what did the priests do in the Temple and the Tabernacle? read guys like St Ignatius of Antioch or St Justin Martyr or the Didache who go into 1st and 2nd century worship to see what the earliest Christians said.

if you check out the first hand sources, it’s hard to make a case against it.

I was asking for a Biblical case, but whatever.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was asking for a Biblical case, but whatever.

I started with a Biblical case. God is specific to what priests do in the Temple and Tabernacle.

 

[The Liturgist]

The other thing is aside from Sacrifice, the Orthodox reserve Adoration for God alone, because to Adore anything other than God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, such as the false gods of the Muslims or the Mormons, is to engage in idolatry.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I started with a Biblical case. God is specific to what priests do in the Temple and Tabernacle.

I don't have a problem with thinking worship is done with a sacrifice. I have a problem thinking that is the only way we worship God. That's what needs a Biblical case.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The other thing is aside from Sacrifice, the Orthodox reserve Adoration for God alone, because to Adore anything other than God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, such as the false gods of the Muslims or the Mormons, is to engage in idolatry.

But adoring God is not worship to you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't have a problem with thinking worship is done with a sacrifice. I have a problem thinking that is the only way we worship God. That's what needs a Biblical case.

well, God never made the Temple optional, and that was the design God gave Moses. nowhere is there worship apart from the sacrifice of the community.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

nowhere is there worship apart from the sacrifice of the community.

So if there is a Christian living in Afghanistan, for example, who is going solo, they have no way to worship God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So if there is a Christian living in Afghanistan, for example, who is going solo, they have no way to worship God?

not according to how God tells us to worship Him. of course, God takes into account our situation and what we can or cannot do.

however, that doesn’t change the fact that Biblical worship is centralized on sacrificial offering.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

however, that doesn’t change the fact that Biblical worship is centralized on sacrificial offering.

Right. That's what I need a verse for that says something to this effect. Like, if you can say it than it should be easy enough for a Biblical author to say it. I don't believe any Biblical author actually said, "Worship can only be done through a sacrifice." In fact, I think we have Biblical evidence to the contrary such as when John the Evangelist worships an angel and the angel tells him not to worship them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Right. That's what I need a verse for that says something to this effect. Like, if you can say it than it should be easy enough for a Biblical author to say it. I don't believe any Biblical author actually said, "Worship can only be done through a sacrifice." In fact, I think we have Biblical evidence to the contrary such as when John the Evangelist worships an angel and the angel tells him not to worship them.

well, I don’t know of any specific verse, aside to say when God tells Moses how He wants His people to worship Him, it involves sacrificial offering.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

well, I don’t know of any specific verse, aside to say when God tells Moses how He wants His people to worship Him, it involves sacrificial offering.

That's fine. I'm just saying worship is not limited to that. Otherwise, the angel would not have said not to worship them, which is an affirmation that it was actually worshiping.

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers and sisters who hold firmly to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”" (Revelation 19:10)

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's fine. I'm just saying worship is not limited to that. Otherwise, the angel would not have said not to worship them, which is an affirmation that it was actually worshiping.

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers and sisters who hold firmly to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”" (Revelation 19:10)

are you sure there’s no nuance to that considering it was written in Greek and not English?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

are you sure there’s no nuance to that considering it was written in Greek and not English?

What difference would that make? Unless you want to say all the English versions are wrong, which would also make most of the lexicons wrong as well? It still doesn't answer why the angel said, "Don't do that, you must only [insert word] God."

 

[prodromos]

That's fine. I'm just saying worship is not limited to that. Otherwise, the angel would not have said not to worship them, which is an affirmation that it was actually worshiping.

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers and sisters who hold firmly to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”" (Revelation 19:10)

The word that has been translated as "worship" is "προσκυνησαι", which has a fairly broad range of meaning as opposed to "λατρεία", which is specific to God.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The word that has been translated as "worship" is "προσκυνησαι", which has a fairly broad range of meaning as opposed to "λατρεία", which is specific to God.

Again, that does not explain why the angel said, "Don't do that for me. Do that for God." So even if you want to say the meaning of the word is broad, here it clearly seems to mean worship. It's like saying the word for virgin in the NT for Mary is wrong since where it is quoted from in the OT is a broad meaning.

 

[Lukaris]

We understand that the angels present the prayers of the saints. It is from the book of Tobit 12:12-22 which is either discarded or deemphasized in most ( not all) Protestant traditions.

Bible Gateway passage: Tobit 12 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

Then Tobias called to him his son, and said to him: What can we give to this holy man, that is come with thee? Tobias answering, said to his father: Father, what wages shall we give him? or what can be worthy of his benefits? He conducted me and brought me safe again, he received the money of...

www.biblegateway.com

An early bishop of the Church, St. Polycarp, is said to be referring to Tobit 12:9 in an early 2nd century letter he wrote to the Philippians a few decades after St. Paul:



one. When you can do good, defer it not, because alms delivers from death.Tobit 4:10, Tobit 12:9

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Philippians (Polycarp)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Info on the letter of St. Polycarp:

Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org