Orthodox Images in Prayer?

[AMM]

Came across this article this past week and figured it could be an interesting one to discuss.

The Swan of Endless Tales: Mental Imagery and Orthodox spirituality

Specifically, I'm curious about the ideas of (1) distinguishing prayer, meditation, and psalmody and (2) intentional imagination being acceptable, while unconscious imagery being discouraged.

Thoughts?

 

[Moses Medina]

Thank you for the link.

I am posting to follow along in what all have to say here.

 

[archer75]

Came across this article this past week and figured it could be an interesting one to discuss.

The Swan of Endless Tales: Mental Imagery and Orthodox spirituality

Specifically, I'm curious about the ideas of (1) distinguishing prayer, meditation, and psalmody and (2) intentional imagination being acceptable, while unconscious imagery being discouraged.

Thoughts?

I need to follow this thread, because I thought fleeting images were acceptable, while intentional focus on mental.images was improper...

 

[dzheremi]

That was really interesting. Thank you for linking to it. I've heard about that concerning the EO tradition (the forbidding of mental images), but I have not heard of these distinctions that the writer makes, and it was curious to read Abba Philemon as support for them. I'm trying to think now if I have heard this topic brought up before in my own church or in the monastery when I was there, but I don't think it ever has been. The closest I've ever heard was the advice not to pray in a room that has any mirrors if we can help it, because they may cause our minds to wonder to thoughts of how we might look 'most holy' in prayer, and prayer is not supposed to be about that sort of thing.

Very interesting. Even though I don't really understand it, it has given me a lot to think about and mull over.

 

[archer75]

Uh, wow. I need to write up how I understand this and see what more experienced parties think...I think this is not far from my previous understanding, but I should check that.

 

[SingularityOne]

I think descernment and talking to one's spiritual father is very important through this process as images are tainted by our fallen nous after all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I need to follow this thread, because I thought fleeting images were acceptable, while intentional focus on mental.images was improper...

that's what I always heard. but I will say that he is correct that imagery is fine, but he seems to minimize that pure prayer is what we all are to strive for, going beyond imagery.

and just because troparia and kontakia are vivid, that doesn't mean you should consciously try to visualize what the hymns are about.

 

[AMM]

The closest I've ever heard was the advice not to pray in a room that has any mirrors if we can help it, because they may cause our minds to wonder to thoughts of how we might look 'most holy' in prayer, and prayer is not supposed to be about that sort of thing.

I haven't heard that before, but it makes sense, of course. It sounds like a mixture of Christ's command to not let our left hand know what our right hand is doing, and his instruction to go in to our room and shut the door to pray. Prayer isn't about what we look like or really even about us in the first place. It's about uniting with Christ and acquiring the Holy Spirit

I think descernment and talking to one's spiritual father is very important through this process as images are tainted by our fallen nous after all.

True, that goes without saying

that's what I always heard. but I will say that he is correct that imagery is fine, but he seems to minimize that pure prayer is what we all are to strive for, going beyond imagery.

and just because troparia and kontakia are vivid, that doesn't mean you should consciously try to visualize what the hymns are about.

To me it seemed like he was saying - "pure prayer is the ideal, but we should allow ourselves time for meditation and psalmody (i.e. imagery-prayers) in order to let our nous rest, using it as a stepping stone and an exercise for pure prayer". Paraphrased, of course.
Is the argument that correct imagery is fine essentially the same/related to the usage of an icon during prayer? Like an Icon is correct imagery almost by definition (but it's not mental imagery/imagination/fantasia, so I guess that's a little different)

 

[ArmyMatt]

To me it seemed like he was saying - "pure prayer is the ideal, but we should allow ourselves time for meditation and psalmody (i.e. imagery-prayers) in order to let our nous rest, using it as a stepping stone and an exercise for pure prayer". Paraphrased, of course.
Is the argument that correct imagery is fine essentially the same/related to the usage of an icon during prayer? Like an Icon is correct imagery almost by definition (but it's not mental imagery/imagination/fantasia, so I guess that's a little different)

I'd say no. the icon is intentionally not realistic looking or dynamic to point beyond the image to the prototype.

 

[archer75]

I want to type up my practice and ask people on this thrad to tell me if you think I'm siper misguided.

I try to focus on the meaning of each prayer. For me, this naturally involves some fleeting mental images - at "then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar" I briefly see or think of an altar in the course of the meaning of the Psalm. I don't worry about this. Neither do I focus my mind on that image. I just keep going. Thoughts and images pass by as I try to follow the meaning of the prayer.

What I do not do is cultivate a mental picture and pray to it, or believe that it is a vision from God, or anything of the kind.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I want to type up my practice and ask people on this thrad to tell me if you think I'm siper misguided.

I try to focus on the meaning of each prayer. For me, this naturally involves some fleeting mental images - at "then shall they offer bullocks upon Thine altar" I briefly see or think of an altar in the course of the meaning of the Psalm. I don't worry about this. Neither do I focus my mind on that image. I just keep going. Thoughts and images pass by as I try to follow the meaning of the prayer.

What I do not do is cultivate a mental picture and pray to it, or believe that it is a vision from God, or anything of the kind.

I think that's okay. Fr Tom Hopko in some talk of his I have somewhere, says that mental images when reading a Psalm are fine, as long as the mental image isn't focused on and is about what the psalm is about. the issue would be, say it's Matins, and you just started the canon but you're still thinking about the end of psalm 50.