orthodox idea of forgiveness

[Maxelcat]

I posted this on a different board this morning and it was suggested I post it here. This is the link to the replies I got orthodox understanding of forgiveness

Hi All

I have been a 'protestant' of various colours most of my life. I have been taught over the years that somehow my sin creates a gap between me and God. Somehow, when I sin i owe God 'something' and that Jesus paid off my debt. This gives us a nice little formula to work with but I have to say that I am at the point where most of that soteriology doesn't make sense for so many reasons.

I am trying to learn more about orthodoxy - inspired by some theology study I have done. This morning I read in Acts 2 where Peter is preaching to the crowds and he says 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'

I understand that salvation is a process, and that is is more to do with participation with the divine than having a debt cancelled. (I think!) But I want to understand how an orthodox would understand the word 'forgiveness'.

So how do the orthodox understand this idea of 'forgiveness of your sins'? Or, as is so often the case, am I asking the wrong question.

BTW it is suggested that I read Bishop Kallistos Ware’s books, The Orthodox Way and The Orthodox Church so I have added him to my reading list. Also, I am not sure how much longer I can put off visiting an Orthodox church - thing is my family are happy being protestant...

Thanks

M

 

[ArmyMatt]

forgiveness of sins happened at the Cross. the sacraments and the life of the Church open us to receive the forgiveness God offers. because it's coming whether we want it or not.

 

[Maxelcat]

thanks ArmyMatt - how to the Orthodox does the cross achieve forgiveness?

 

[ArmyMatt]

thanks ArmyMatt - how to the Orthodox does the cross achieve forgiveness?

by Christ destroying death's hold on humanity, we can now return to the state we are created for (and even greater than Adam had in the Garden). so when we screw up and sin, we now have a way to be restored which the Law could not give.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I think for us primarily, Forgiveness is less of God forgiving us for a breaking of his system of law, and more for his forgiveness of rejection of him. Sin to us after all is a missing of the target, as opposed to just a breaking of a law. So we ask forgiveness so that in this material world we may be saved from sudden judgement for our failures, and so that any bad deeds we have done will not weigh against us in the end.

Also when getting into this subject opinions can vary within the church.

Our problem is more with Justification than judgement. After all the final judgement is Biblical and implies punishment based on merit. But what level of merit? Well for us any level of merit done without Faith is worthless. So there is that, and we believe that faith will save you, but we believe that faith without works doesn't exist. We call this idea the Synaxis.

Justification claims that Christ died to cover us with his blood so that God would not see our moral failures, but the Pure blood of Christ and not Judge us. I suppose this is likened to the original passover. To a degree this is true. I think there is too much symbolism in the system of law to claim otherwise. Having a scapegoat is a clear image of someone else taking the punishment for our sins. However we do not believe this to be the ONLY reason Christ died. We God to come down as man to give us the ability to restore the Image of God within ourselves. As the quote goes "God became man, so that man might become God". And while we do not mean that we literally become God by this, it does mean that we are now able to restore the image of God within ourselves by following Christs example.

Theologians have debated for years on the subject and I am not really well versed enough to completely answer this. I have found several articles online about "Orthodox view on justification" that you might be able to read.

Overall I don't think justification in itself is wrong, it is more the protestant spin off it we disagree with.

 

[☦Marius☦]

God’s “Righteousness”

 

[Maxelcat]

I think for us primarily, Forgiveness is less of God forgiving us for a breaking of his system of law, and more for his forgiveness of rejection of him. Sin to us after all is a missing of the target, as opposed to just a breaking of a law. So we ask forgiveness so that in this material world we may be saved from sudden judgement for our failures, and so that any bad deeds we have done will not weigh against us in the end.

Also when getting into this subject opinions can vary within the church.

Our problem is more with Justification than judgement. After all the final judgement is Biblical and implies punishment based on merit. But what level of merit? Well for us any level of merit done without Faith is worthless. So there is that, and we believe that faith will save you, but we believe that faith without works doesn't exist. We call this idea the Synaxis.

Justification claims that Christ died to cover us with his blood so that God would not see our moral failures, but the Pure blood of Christ and not Judge us. I suppose this is likened to the original passover. To a degree this is true. I think there is too much symbolism in the system of law to claim otherwise. Having a scapegoat is a clear image of someone else taking the punishment for our sins. However we do not believe this to be the ONLY reason Christ died. We God to come down as man to give us the ability to restore the Image of God within ourselves. As the quote goes "God became man, so that man might become God". And while we do not mean that we literally become God by this, it does mean that we are now able to restore the image of God within ourselves by following Christs example.

Theologians have debated for years on the subject and I am not really well versed enough to completely answer this. I have found several articles online about "Orthodox view on justification" that you might be able to read.

Overall I don't think justification in itself is wrong, it is more the protestant spin off it we disagree with.

Thanks for your long reply aluke164. Opinions in the protestant view vary widely too, and contradict each other - which is one of several reasons why Orthodoxy is becoming more interesting. I think there comes a point when I/we just have to accept there is a mystery to salvation... though I find that hard. The Fathers seem to have a deep intellectual approach, mixed up with a deeply mystical one.

You mention about the 'blood covering over us' - if you take the OT sacrificial system as we have been taught it then this seems to be an obvious extension - Christ on the cross is the sacrifical lamb. This is taught by Protestantism. But I never get why a death/blood is needed to forgive sin? When I sin against my wife, and I repent, she just forgives me. And if marriage is a picture of 'Christ and the church' then perhaps it would seem that I should have to perform some sort of debt-relief. Thankfully we don't.

At college I had to cf Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa's approach to salvation. I didn't like the 'angry God/paying a debt' motif of the former and was really drawn by the 'restoration of the Image' idea's of Gregory - as you say, by imitation.

I am beginning to think that it would be good to visit an Orthodox church - round here there are a couple of Greek ones - I don't speak Greek though, and the services are English and Greek. People say you need to epxerience Orthodoxy.

Thanks again for your time - much appreciated

 

[“Paisios”]

I am beginning to think that it would be good to visit an Orthodox church - round here there are a couple of Greek ones - I don't speak Greek though, and the services are English and Greek. People say you need to epxerience Orthodoxy.

I am in a similar place to you - raised Protestant, interested in Orthodoxy recently, don’t speak Greek - and I have been to our local Greek Orthodox Churches with Greek/English services three times recently. While I didn’t understand everything that was said, it was easier to follow than I would have thought, although I will say the experience was really overwhelming. Prior to my visiting these two churches, @ArmyMatt told me to make sure that I met with and talked with the priest after the service. I was fortunate enough that the priest was gracious enough to actually invite me to breakfast afterwards on two occasions, which allowed me to ask many questions.

I would say don’t let the language put you off, but do try and speak with the priest afterwards.

 

[~Anastasia~]

One thing I want to add - we do NOT believe that "God had a problem and was unable to forgive us without a debt being paid". This makes God subservient to some imagined cosmic law, or lacking in some way. Salvation isn't because God has a problem - it's because WE have a problem.

That said, I still tend to tread carefully in explaining these things, because it's easy to create misunderstanding. I'd rather leave that to @ArmyMatt when be has time.

As far as languages used in parishes, it varies a great deal. Ours is officially in Greek and English, but depending on who is attending it does sometimes swing to mostly English, and even when more Greek is used, the Gospel and homily are always in English. A great deal is done in both English and Greek in the same Liturgy, and what is not is alternated week to week. Of course another parish may be different, but my point is that you may find more English than you expect, and one visit may not be enough to find out. There should also be a book to follow, and you can ask for help in keeping up if you like. There will likely be prayers, etc. that you won't hear and can only know if you read them. Or some people prefer not to be distracted with keeping up and just to soak in the experience. I'd recommend both at different times.

It is a good idea to contact the priest. You can also ask about the language used if you like.

Oh, one other thing. It was truly a great blessing for me to be exposed to so much Greek. I've always looked up words when reading the Scriptures and tried to get a fuller understanding. The Liturgy in Greek gave me a bigger motivation, and a broader context and understanding as my parish family teach me many things. It's amazing how much richer the Liturgy is now that I know what some of the Greek really MEANS when I hear it, instead of just receiving only the English translation, which can be pale at times.

God be with you.

 

[Maxelcat]

Thanks for your long reply. Lots to thi l about.