Orthodox and Just War

[MrJim]

What is the official view for TAW/Orthodox position and is there room for "CO" similar to RCC?

 

[Dust and Ashes]

What is the official view for TAW/Orthodox position and is there room for "CO" similar to RCC?

I guess war is ok if it's bad guys you're killing.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

War is evil? Several thoughts:

1. Does this make soldiers evil?

2. St. John the Forerunner just told the soldiers to be content with their pay. Nothing about leaving the army.

3. We have warrior saints... and in the case of St. Demetrius, he is actively killing someone in his icon.

4. We pray for our armed forces every Divine Liturgy. Should we stop, as they are doing something evil?

 

[Dust and Ashes]

War is evil? Several thoughts:

1. Does this make soldiers evil?

2. St. John the Forerunner just told the soldiers to be content with their pay. Nothing about leaving the army.

3. We have warrior saints... and in the case of St. Demetrius, he is actively killing someone in his icon.

4. We pray for our armed forces every Divine Liturgy. Should we stop, as they are doing something evil?

Just parroting what I've heard others say here. Guess I should keep my mouth shut. Sorry.

Actually, I've been kind of struggling with the whole pacifist thing lately but if I can kill in self defense and it isn't sinful then I'm putting a Glock on layaway tomorrow instead of buying video games. I'm not being sarcastic. I've been looking at guns lately as I used to really be into them and wanted to get another one but I felt that if I'm not supposed to defend myself, why buy a gun. If there's nothing wrong with it, then I'm definately getting one, then apply for my "red card."

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Just parroting what I've heard others say here. Guess I should keep my mouth shut. Sorry.

FS:
You may be right [that war is evil].

Or, at least, you may express the majority view within Orthodox circles. However, I am not convinced that the "war is evil" pov covers the entirety of Orthodox opinion on the subject. Witness my thoughts, above.

That said, I don't think that you should feel you have to keep your mouth shut. Debate has a long and cherished history within Orthodoxy. Sometimes too cherished. But I am not about to ask you to be silent because we disagree.

Who knows? Maybe in talking we will come to a common pov.

Peace,
Vasya.

 

[Matrona]

War involves a great deal of sin but it's okay as a lesser of two evils, as long as it is for a good reason--preventing larger atrocities, etc. Some Orthodox are pacifists, but neither opinion is mandated.

World War II is often used as a classic example. 11 million people died in Hitler's death camps. 25 million Soviets died fighting the Nazis, but I'm sure Hitler would have gone on to kill many, many more people than 25 million had he not been challenged.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Actually, I've been kind of struggling with the whole pacifist thing lately but if I can kill in self defense and it isn't sinful then I'm putting a Glock on layaway tomorrow instead of buying video games. I'm not being sarcastic. I've been looking at guns lately as I used to really be into them and wanted to get another one but I felt that if I'm not supposed to defend myself, why buy a gun. If there's nothing wrong with it, then I'm definately getting one, then apply for my "red card."

Hi, FS.

I noted that you edited your posts. You should not feel that that is necessary unless a) you were abusive, or b) you made a spelling/grammar error. As you did neither, I don't think that my few and small words warrant such a radical shift in your pov as to edit what you have written.

As for what you have said above, I don't know the Orthodox view on the ownership of handguns. I am a little concerned, though, that you would make such a decision so precipitously... and that you will have something to defend yourself that delivers lethal force. Somehow self-defense that involves the killing of another strikes me as wrong. I think of Ss. Boris and Gleb. I think of St. Moses the Ethiopian.

There seems to be two standards. One, where you defend your nation, and deliver lethal force. The second, where you defend yourself, and avoid lethal force.

These are my $0.02 on the matter.

Vasya.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Menno - as you can see, there is a variance of opinion. Because we do not have a head of the whole Church other than Christ, there is no one person to hand decisions on such matters down. What we DO agree on are dogmatic theological matters that were decided upon centuries ago by our forefathers. Step outside the boundary of those, and you can no longer call yourself Orthodox. But matters as this, social and not theological, variances abound.

I side with FS and Matrona's view. You will find that a great many Orthodox Christians are pacifists. But not all.

For example, although I do have very very mixed feelings about it, I mostly support the war on terror that we're fighting now, because I'm so afraid that if we don't crush Al-Quaeda's central administration, that they are going to try to do what Hitler did during WWII. They are truly as evil as any of the SS officers ever were. But others could argue for reasons against it, and I would agree that their points are valid, most notably the toll on innocent human life. There are just no winners either way. (and guys, if you love me, PLEASE let's not turn this thread into a debate about the war! )

LK

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Hi, FS.

I noted that you edited your posts. You should not feel that that is necessary unless a) you were abusive, or b) you made a spelling/grammar error. As you did neither, I don't think that my few and small words warrant such a radical shift in your pov as to edit what you have written.

As for what you have said above, I don't know the Orthodox view on the ownership of handguns. I am a little concerned, though, that you would make such a decision so precipitously... and that you will have something to defend yourself that delivers lethal force. Somehow self-defense that involves the killing of another strikes me as wrong. I think of Ss. Boris and Gleb. I think of St. Moses the Ethiopian.

There seems to be two standards. One, where you defend your nation, and deliver lethal force. The second, where you defend yourself, and avoid lethal force.

These are my $0.02 on the matter.

Vasya.

It's not really an impulsive decision for me as I have seriously been thinking about it a lot lately. I actually went out pricing guns last week but have been flip-flopping on the final decision all week. I don't really see a difference in defending my country or defending my family. My family is much more valuable to me than my apathetic, invalid murdering country right now.

I legally carried a concealed firearm for 7 years when I lived in another state but never bothered getting a license when I moved back home because it is a more involved and expensive process here. I've had a great deal of training and experience with firearms and they have always been one of my great passions. I could spend hours and hours (not to mention $100s) at the range.

Then I got into computers and my wife put her foot down and said that I had to choose only 1 expensive hobby so I went with computers.

 

[Maximus]

I believe there is such a thing as a just war. I don't think war is always automatically evil.

I also believe in self defense and the obligation to defend others.

I think it is perfectly okay for Orthodox Christians to own handguns and to study the martial arts.

I think pacifists are misguided, but that is my opinion.

Of course, before I became a teacher, I was a police officer.

I never had to kill anyone, but I would have had it been absolutely necessary.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

And, Vasya, please forgive me for the sarcastic way I responded to your original reply.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

And, Vasya, please forgive me for the sarcastic way I responded to your original reply.

No worries, FS.

A) You didn't offend.
B) Even if you did offend, it's Lent. Crazy emotions happen during Lent. I try to let them pass me by.

So, although I don't think it necessary as I don't feel wronged, you still have my full forgiveness.

Peace, brother.
-Vasya.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

All this talk about guns and war makes me want to fire up Ghost Recon and go skulking around the Georgian back country with a SAW.

 

[NewToLife]

I'm going to take a different view from those who have posted before, war is always evil just as killing another human being is always amongst the worst crimes that we can commit against God. I personally find the idea of a 'Just War' to be ridiculous and my understanding is that Orthodox tradition makes the same judgement in this matter.

All that said, Orthodoxy recognises that we do live in a fallen world. As such we may find ourselves in a position where war or the killing of another is necessary to avoid an even greater evil. This does not make such actions just, they are never better than the 'least worst' that we can do in a situation. War is a matter of economy only, it can never truly be called a good or just action and ought only to be considered as the final option once all other options have been utterly exhausted.

 

[33ad]

 

[ManM]

Last year, the University of Florida's OCF had a round table discussion about this very subject, with several Bishops and Priests addressing the issue. The majority held that leaders have a God given responsibility to protect the ones they have been given authority over. The Byzantine empire's struggle against the Muslims was used as an example.

 

[NewToLife]

The Byzantine empire's struggle against the Muslims was used as an example.

One needs to read up on Byzantine political practice before such an example can be understood correctly. The Byzantine Empire's use of war as a tool was in practise extremely limited and generally war was waged in the most limited of fashions as a last resort.

It was in large part the Byzantine's constant avoidance of conflict with their muslim neighbors with whom they regularly drew up treaties and accords that caused the tensions between Constantinople and the leaders of the various crusades, these tensions led eventually to the sack of Constantinople in 1204. There is a reason that the Byzantine's are historically renowned for their diplomacy, it was diplomacy that largely replaced war as a political tool in the Byzantine political scheme. In the west this was seen as duplicity and cowardice, leading to the stereotype of the 'effeminate and treacherous' Greek in medieval Europe. In the East it led to the conversion of Russia with whom the Byzantine's might otherwise have had to go to war.

The history of Byzantium is an education in the avoidance of war as a point of political and religious principle.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Last year, the University of Florida's OCF had a round table discussion about this very subject, with several Bishops and Priests addressing the issue. The majority held that leaders have a God given responsibility to protect the ones they have been given authority over. The Byzantine empire's struggle against the Muslims was used as an example.

Well said, Matthew.

(It is Matthew, right?)

This sums up what I believe about war. Neatly, tidily, and in a nut shell. Thanks!

 

[gorion]

I cannot answer for Orthodoxy but for myself, I have a hard time reconciling the idea of a just war with the teachings of turn the other cheek, if a man sues you for your shirt give him your coat as well, if a man forces you to go one mile go with him two, do not resist an evil person, pray for those who persecute you, and so on. If anyone can show where our Lord instructed us that it is ok to take anothers life for any reason it would help me a great deal to understand the concept of "just" killing.

 

[Maximus]

War is not always evil. Fighting to stop Hitler was a positive good. Fighting to drive the Muslims from Europe was a positive good. Fighting to stop Islamic terrorists is a positive good. Fighting against aggressive criminals in order to stop them and bring them to justice is a positive good.

There is a difference between individual morality and the obligations of nation states to defend their people. Soldiers and police officers act as agents of an entity larger than themselves - a state or community.

The same New Testament that contains "Turn the other cheek" also includes Romans 13.

BTW, the Byzantine Empire was not all that pacific. It employed diplomacy when it had to or could - like any other state - otherwise its history is pretty bellicose.