Orthodox and Just War

[gorion]

Romans 13 1Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," *"You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet,"* and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."* 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

I don't see "just war" or "permission" to kill people anywhere in here could you help me out? I can see where a soldier could be justified by obeying his government but that is about it. But it does reiterate do not murder and love your enemy.

Let me ask how do you love your enemy as your putting a bullet through their skull?

 

[Maximus]

Let me ask how do you love your enemy as your putting a bullet through their skull?

Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

You can love your enemy while defending your nation - your family, your friends - from its, from their, enemies.

Stopping the evil from murdering the innocent is a great good.

Putting a bullet through Hitler's skull would have been an act of mercy for those he had targeted as victims and for Hitler himself.

Acting in defense of others, especially as the agent of a state or community, is not a matter of individual morality, although individual moral choices are involved.

A pacifism that, on principle, allows others to suffer and die at the hands of aggressors is itself evil.

 

[gorion]

You can love your enemy while defending your nation - your family, your friends - from its, from their, enemies.

Stopping the evil from murdering the innocent is a great good.

Putting a bullet through Hitler's skull would have been an act of mercy for those he had targeted as victims and for Hitler himself.

Acting in defense of others, especially as the agent of a state or community, is not a matter of individual morality, although individual moral choices are involved.

A pacifism that, on principle, allows others to suffer and die at the hands of aggressors is itself evil.

I respectfully disagree. We can rationalize and justify all we want but these actions are contrary to the teachings of our Lord. Again show me any teaching of our Lord that would support these conclusions and I will see what you are saying.

These rationalizations presume that the death of the offender is the only solution. I don't think this is always true. In fact I believe it would rarely be true.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Let me ask how do you love your enemy as your putting a bullet through their skull?

I guess much the same way Old Yeller's family loved him, but he still had to be put down for the safety of everyone else. I know there is a difference between a person and an animal, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I just couldn't watch someone murder my wife or family while I had the means and capability to stop them.

 

[gorion]

I guess much the same way Old Yeller's family loved him, but he still had to be put down for the safety of everyone else. I know there is a difference between a person and an animal, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I just couldn't watch someone murder my wife or family while I had the means and capability to stop them.

The presumption of the scenario given is that the only solution is the killing of the offender.

 

[Maximus]

The presumption of the scenario given is that the only solution is the killing of the offender.

If there was another way we would take it.

Sometimes the only way to stop aggressors is to stop them permanently.

We defeated Hitler without killing all the Germans or even all the Nazis.

When the Lord spoke with Roman soldiers, did He ever counsel them to leave the military and become pacifists?

 

[gorion]

When the Lord spoke with Roman soldiers, did He ever counsel them to leave the military and become pacifists?

Did he tell them to smite their enemies? Did he tell anyone to kill anybody for any reason? Or seek vengence or justice? Or put down evil rulers? Or anything even remotely like any of that?

 

[gorion]

He certainly told us to do otherwise.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

The presumption of the scenario given is that the only solution is the killing of the offender.

No, the presumption of the scenario given is that violence would be necessary. Killing the assailant would certainly be a possiblity but only if they persisted in the attempt and left me with no other alternative. I can double tap a shoulder just as easily as a head.

 

[gorion]

No, the presumption of the scenario given is that violence would be necessary. Killing the assailant would certainly be a possiblity but only if they persisted in the attempt and left me with no other alternative. I can double tap a shoulder just as easily as a head.

Got it , but I would single the shoulder otherwise they would probably bleed to death.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Gorion, I commend you on the level of holiness and love you have attained that you could watch someone murder your family without being twisted by it. To have that kind of love is truely wonderful and we should all strive for it. I pray that someday, I can reach that point but I'm not there yet. I would self-destruct with the knowledge that I let my family be murdered while I did nothing to stop it. Please pray for me, a sinner.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Got it , but I would single the shoulder otherwise they would probably bleed to death.

Nah, I'd cauterize it with a propane torch for them. hehe

Ok, that was just wrong.

 

[gorion]

Nah, I'd cauterize it with a propane torch for them. hehe

Ok, that was just wrong.

LOL yeah that was a bit over the top

 

[Rilian]

I read this review of this book not that long ago. Seems apropos.

The Byzantines employed both warfare (one Byzantine emperor earned the title "Bulgar Slayer") and skillful negotiation.

 

[gorion]

Ok now my question is what did Christ mean when he said we had to love our enemies? What did he really mean when he said that we were not supposed to resist an evil person?

How can I reconcile these teachings to the killing/maiming of other people?

 

[gorion]

Gorion, I commend you on the level of holiness and love you have attained that you could watch someone murder your family without being twisted by it. To have that kind of love is truely wonderful and we should all strive for it. I pray that someday, I can reach that point but I'm not there yet. I would self-destruct with the knowledge that I let my family be murdered while I did nothing to stop it. Please pray for me, a sinner.

I think this bit of sarcasm is completely unwarranted. I truly do not know personally what I would do if my family was attacked. I probaly would not do the right thing. I am completely the opposite of anything holy. A filthy rag is a joy to behold compared to me. OTOH there is nothing wrong with seeking the truth so that one could see where one is going. To see the virtues one needs to adopt in one's life. I see nothing wrong with being an idealist. It gives me a goal to strive for.

But please do not misunderstand. The things which I will to do, those I do not do. The things I will not to do, those I do.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Nah, I'd cauterize it with a propane torch for them. hehe

Ok, that was just wrong.

But seriously, call me old fashioned, but I do think it is the responsibilty of a man (the head of the household) to protect his family from harm when possible. This doesn't necessarily have to involve a gun, but still.....any man who would stand by and let his family be harmed or murdered out of some warped sense of what it is to be holy is deluded, in my opinion. How is that an act of love? Perhaps it's an act of love toward the criminal, but certainly not an act of love towards his family.

King David was a man after God's own heart, and yet he fought and killed to defend his country, didn't he?

 

[MrJim]

Thanks to all the TAW folks that replied to my question. Sounds like this issue is pretty much handled the same way by all brethren-individual conviction. I own a gun (former USMC) but so much want to trust in God that it would never be used against a person. I too struggle with the idea of what would happen if family assaulted-that God would provide another way to respond-to be able to turn the other cheek. To be more like Christ is our goal and blessings to the TAW for your input. I've grown in a short time to really appreciate your input and I always look for your icon in the other forums.


Menno

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I think this bit of sarcasm is completely unwarranted. I truly do not know personally what I would do if my family was attacked. I probaly would not do the right thing. I am completely the opposite of anything holy. A filthy rag is a joy to behold compared to me. OTOH there is nothing wrong with seeking the truth so that one could see where one is going. To see the virtues one needs to adopt in one's life. I see nothing wrong with being an idealist. It gives me a goal to strive for.

But please do not misunderstand. The things which I will to do, those I do not do. The things I will not to do, those I do.

I'm sorry you took that for sarcasm, I was being sincere. You are completely right in your position and I'm searching for means to justify my penchant for violence because I am an evil, sinful monster who doesn't have the decency to love my neighbor or trust that nothing happens apart from God's will. Maybe it's time for me to take a hiatus from CF as my presence seems to do nothing but corrupt. I really did mean that as sincere admiration. I'm sorry you took it as sarcasm.

 

[Rilian]

Ok now my question is what did Christ mean when he said we had to love our enemies? What did he really mean when he said that we were not supposed to resist an evil person?

When Christ confronted the money changers in the Temple, what did he do?