Origional sin?

[DrummerGirl]

What is origional sin?

 

[Reformationist]

12th February 2003 at 05:22 AM DrummerGirl said this in Post #1

What is origional sin?

Original sin, in the sense of mankind, is the seed of rebellion that separated us, as a creation, from God.  Original sin resulted in the Fall of mankind which, in turn, resulted in mankind's spiritual, and physical, death.  Fallen man, as a result of the imputation of the penalty and guilt of the sin of Adam and Eve, does not love God, does not desire the things of God, has no internal righteousness, does not seek God, does not worship God, is not thankful to God, and is, by virtue of this separation and seed of rebellion, destined for hell with no way to remedy the situation.

That's why we call Jesus "Savior" because saving us from the punishment and guilt of our natural sinfulness is exactly what He does.

God bless

 

[Allen2]

Hi Ref: I agreed with much that you wrote about Original sin and the resultant death and depravity. I don't agree that Adam and Eve's sin was imputed to us(re the Federal View or Natural Headship). All of the passages in Scripture regarding the Last Judgment has each of us held accountable for our own misdeeds. Adam's sin did bring all of us into the era of sin and death: sin is as natural to us as the proverbial "falling off a log". God bless, Al

 

[Allen2]

Boot

 

[Reader Nilus]

As Orthodox we believe that Original Sin brought about a place of sin, and that we are born in sins, and making it very easy for us to follow the easy path of sin. We are not born guilty, and human beings no matter how evil they seem to be are still made in the Image and Likeness of God. It is the Likeness of God that is clouded over with sin.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Allen2]

Jeff! Can't find a way to improve upon your statement! Like you I believe we are not held guilty for Adam's sin; however, because of Adam and Eve we are not born into the same world they were nor in the same condition they were. A world where The Evil One is called the "god of this age" and even tho the Lord's commands are just and good, just hearing the command incites the wrong inclinations in the sinner. Thank God for His passionate and incredibly powerful love in liberating us from the power and stain and guilt of our sins! Al

 

[Reader Nilus]

Allen, if you get a chance read Gustaf Aulen's book Christus Victor: An Historic Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of Atonement. Gustaf Aulen was a Swedish Lutheran Bishop in the 1930's and Jaroslav Pelikan says this about the book:
"It is the crierion of a great work of theology that it sets the ground rules for a discussion even if that discussion goes beyond the original argument."
Aulen gives the classic idea of atonement which fits with the model of original sin that Orthodox believe.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Photini]

It is the Likeness of God that is clouded over with sin.
Jeff the Finn

Hi Jeff,
I've run across this a bit differently in a couple of books I've read. The one right off the top of my head is the one by Metropolitan Heirotheos, Life After Death Where he actually explains it's the Image that is clouded and and disfigured, and that the likeness is the active part. We are made in His Image, and called to grow in His Likeness. I'm pretty tired though, so I may be remembering wrong.

In Christ,
Photini

 

[Reader Nilus]

You may be right, it is the likeness that we lost because of our sin, the image or ikon of God remains unchanged. It is difficult to see the ikon with all the grim and dirt we have pasted over that ikon which is why some people say like Hitler would be hard to believe he was an Ikon of Our Lord. The likeness is lost so that is what we need to restore by prayer, fasting and almsgiving.
Sometimes posting in real time without hard copy, editing mistakes is not so easy to do, and you are right here, that it is the ikon that is clouded over.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Allen2]

Not to be picky, but I believe that image and likeness are synonyms in Gen.1:26 and in both the Old and New Testaments. I doubt that any theological issues are really affected by this, since the human as a whole being is tainted and corrupted by sin--we are willing bondslaves of depravity until Christ liberates us. Thanx for the recommendation of Aulen's book: haven't thot re it in yrs. God bless, Al

 

[Reader Nilus]

The Orthodox understanding is that Sin entered the world via Adam, and death and misery are the effects of that, but the individual is not totally depraved, we are still the image of God no matter how grotesque that image has become.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Photini]

Allen, I've been taught that they are not synonyms. For Orthodox anthropology, the term "image" has a different meaning from the term 'likeness.' Image is seen as the potential inherent in man for sanctification, while likeness refers to its perfection. IOW, Image implies potentiality, while likeness implies actuality.
In Orthodox teaching, the image of God is distorted and disfigured, but it has not been totally annihilated. A goal in spiritual life is not only to restore the image of God, but to attain the likeness of God in Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

Catholics believe similar to the EO. The sin of Adam is a inherited contracted state of sin, not a committed personal sin that is on our soul so we do not bare the guilt of the sin as if we committed it but we are under the curse of the sin that we will die if the sin [curse] is not removed from us that is why we believe you are to baptize all including babies because even those who are innocent of any actual sins are born with this penalty for Adam's sin so we are guilty in that respect.

And yes, I agree that we have damaged the image of God in us but not done away with it and we believe that through sanctification and purification we can regain that image and likeness back in Christ. That's what we as Christians strive for.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Except in Orthodoxy babies and children are innocent and if they die they go to heaven, baptized or not.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Patristic]

The topic of original sin is one of the most interesting topics of scripture and one that I have spent a lot of time studying. I actually came to a view quite similar to that of the Orthodox Church by my own study of Scripture and that is what facilitated my entry into the Church. That being said, I don't see how anyone can hold to personal guilt for Adam and Eve's transgression; For if everyone is truly guilty of that sin and that sin is everyone's sin in some way, then there is no way you can get around the fact that you must believe that children who die in infancy go to hell. This is what Augustine believed, and although I disagree with him I admire that he was atleast consistent with his theological views, which is something I can't say for a lot of people today who still cling to original guilt, yet somehow try to argue that young children aren't sent to hell if they die.

 

[weblord]

original sin is as in origin of sin can be seen here:

Genesis 3:6, - our first parent's sin failure to obey God's command no to eat of the fruit (principle of tithing)
Others:
Psalms 51:5, Matt. 15:19, Jas. 1:5, Jas. 4:1

 

[weblord]

For all have sinned. (Romans 3:23) all the human beings born to this world committed the original sin our first parents: Adam and Eve committed so God offered His solution: forgiveness thru the shedding of Christ's blood to atone, justify us.
(Romans 6:23)

 

[Patristic]

For all have sinned. (Romans 3:23) all the human beings born to this world committed the original sin our first parents: Adam and Eve committed so God offered His solution: forgiveness thru the shedding of Christ's blood to atone, justify us.
(Romans 6:23)

I am a little confused here weblord...are you using Romans 3:23 to support the fact that every human committed the first sin in Adam and Eve and thus everyone is guilty? This verse has absolutely no implication regarding original sin. All Paul is pointing out is that everyone sins, and thus they have missed God's standard of perfection; Paul is in no way saying we sinned in our first parents, but that like them, we too sin personally.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Except in Orthodoxy babies and children are innocent and if they die they go to heaven, baptized or not.
Jeff the Finn

Can I ask Jeff, the reason then behind infant baptism of a babe in the Orthodox Church? I assume it differs from the Catholic view?

 

[Patristic]

Can I ask Jeff, the reason then behind infant baptism of a babe in the Orthodox Church? I assume it differs from the Catholic view?

Let me have a crack at this. The Orthodox do not believe in the Western notion of original guilt, or that all human beings are guilty of the first sin of Adam and Eve. Catholics baptize their children to remove the stain of original sin from their souls, thus ensuring that they go to heaven. The Orthodox, while accepting that baptism is for the remission of sins, do also hold that baptism can serve other purposes. In the case of infants and young children, they are baptized not to remove the stain of original sin, but receive them into the community of the Church, the body of Christ. It is the same way with circumcision in Judaism. Young males were circumcised on the 8th day to bring them into the covenant community and make them privy to all of God's divine blessings. It is the same way with the baptism of young children in the Orthodox Church. We baptize them to initiate them into the community of believers and to make them heirs to the promises of Christ.