Original Sin

St_Worm2 · Jan 30, 2016

Hi Fatboys, you seem to be saying something on the one hand, but then quite the opposite on the other. If the Bible has been "watered down" or "changed", or was NEVER written down correctly to begin with, then the Bible is at least partially, if not totally, "false" Imperfect interpretations, absolutely, but imperfect/unintended words (in the autographs in particular), we'd better both hope that's not true

What you said about the original transgression is interesting, that "it" brought about sin, because that is exactly what the doctrine of OS teaches If Mormons don't believe that the original "nature" of our first parents was changed/tarnished due to their disobedience, and that we, their begotten progeny were not the recipients of a tarnished nature through them, then how did our progenitors' "first transgression" come to effect the lot of us IOW, if it is not in our nature to sin, why do we ALL sin?

Finally, infants and little children destined for Hell, who believes that (I can guarantee you that the neither the Reformed nor the Catholics teach such a thing)? Augustine toyed with the idea that such a thing might be true, but who ever truly believed that?

Thanks!

--David

fatboys · Jan 31, 2016

Transgression is disobedience. Some transgressions are sins. Some transgressions are not. Little children can transgress but cannot sin because they lack knowledge and experience for it to be a sin. Before Adam disobeyed or transgressed his experience and knowledge were as a little child. Example. I am a farm boy. Before I went on my mission I had not been more that a couple hundred miles from home. I went on a mission to England which was quite a shock to me. On the trip over to England we had a layover in New York. Even though I had seen movies which show the congestion in the city until I experienced it I had no clue. I was scared even though I was with several elders who had lived in large cities. My companion literally pulled me back off a cross walk in which a cab drove by cussing and swearing at me. If he had not pulled me back I would have been a bumper sticker on some cab. I as 22 yeas old and was college grad and still almost got killed because I lacked knowledge and understanding. Had not my companion pulled me back I would have had to suffer the consequences for my choice. Lack of knowledge is no excuse for justice. The consequences are the same. Adam disobeyed in innocence. That is no excuse. Justice does not care. So Adam transgressed the law but did not understand the law for lack of knowledge or understanding of the law. This is not sin but still a transgression. Consequences are the same. When Adam transgressed it changed him spiritually and physically. Adam was no longer going to live in the garden of Eden forever. He and Eve became mortal. Also they had knowledge of good and evil. Their eyes were open. They were as the Gods knowing Good and evil. But they were mortal and so they were subject to death. Any children they would have had would also be subject to death. Man was now subject to not just transgression but to sin. Our responsibility is to over come this life of sin so we can become more spiritual and thus be worthy to come back into the presence of God.
The bible is the words of God but is not perfect. Man has either on accident or on purpose changed it from original intent. Man has under there own agenda discarded books and writings from many who had just as much authority from God as those whose writings were accepted as canon. Plus most of these had been written down from oral traditions many years after the fact. And to top that off you have church's who have interpreted Gods deluted word into thousands of different ways because they do not have a definitive way to get pure intent as they did in ancient times through a living prophet. In order for these church's to suppose they have authority from God is to claim the bible is innerrorant. God does not work that way. If that was the way he worked he did not need to call prophets in the first place. He could have written with his finger on a giant rock what he wants. We believe that there is a living breathing prophet on earth who speaks directly with God as they did in bible times. Because of this fruits have come forth yo witness that God still loves us and is consistant in how he deals with his children.

St_Worm2 · Jan 31, 2016

fatboys said:
Adam transgressed the law but did not understand the law for lack of knowledge or understanding of the law.

Hi Fatboys, while I appreciate the story of your adventure in NYC as a young man, there is simply no comparison between that story and the one about Adam's "disobedience" in the Garden. The reason you had a problem in New York was because of "ignorance", but that isn't true of Adam. He was anything but ignorant!! So I have to completely disagree with you about this because few, if any, in the long history of our race, have understood that something was wrong to do more fully and clearly than Adam did in this case

fatboys said:
When Adam transgressed it changed him spiritually and physically.

Again your theology here seems right in line with the doctrine of OS. The Bible tells us that we are all, "by NATURE, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), but that's not the way God created our first parents in the Garden (Genesis 1:26; Ecclesiastes 7:29). He made them upright and in His very image, but we, as their progeny, are now begotten in their fallen/tarnished image instead.

fatboys said:
They were as the Gods

Who are the "GODS" that you refer to here Do you believe that Adam and Eve are mythological characters like the Roman, Greek and Norse "gods" are? The Bible is absolutely clear about the fact that there is ONE God, and it is just as clear that no other "Gods" were formed before He was, and also that no other "Gods" will be formed afterwards (i.e. Isaiah 43:10). He is our One and only, from everlasting to everlasting (Psalms 90:2)

fatboys said:
The bible is the words of God but is not perfect. Man has either on accident or on purpose changed it from original intent.

How can you possibly know that if you don't know what God's "original intent" was And if this is true, that we have somehow muddied or lost completely the message that God was hoping to communicate to us, then the Bible we use (and you use), should be discarded immediately. If God has been unable to preserve His word to us, then we are left with something that cannot fail to lead us away from Him and thereby into Hell!

fatboys said:
Man has under there own agenda discarded books and writings from many who had just as much authority from God as those whose writings were accepted as canon.

How can you possibly know that And quite frankly, whenever I've read through the books that are considered lost or discarded (though supposedly written in the 1st Century), the reason they were not included in the Canon quickly becomes self-evident.

fatboys said:
Plus most of these had been written down from oral traditions many years after the fact.

Sorry, that's wrong. The first three Early Church Fathers quoted most of the books in the NT in their writings, and they were all born in the mid-late First Century and died in the Second (well, all by one, Clement, Rome's Pope who replaced St. Peter, died in 99 AD). Also, Clement and Ignatius were actually disciples of at least one of the Apostles themselves.

For that matter, we know that St. Paul's epistles were written and read in the churches during his lifetime because he often includes in his letters the fact that he is hoping to see them [the recipients of his letters] soon, or that he hopes to be reunited with them once again. So we are sure that most, if not all, of the NT was written during the 1st Century.

Whoops, I've gotta go for a bit, but I will return and finish the rest of my reply later tonight (Dv).

Yours and His,
David

fatboys · Jan 31, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Fatboys, while I appreciate the story of your adventure in NYC as a young man, there is simply no comparison between that story and the one about Adam's "disobedience" in the Garden. The reason you had a problem in New York was because of "ignorance", but that isn't true of Adam. He was anything but ignorant!! So I have to completely disagree with you about this because few, if any, in the long history of our race, have understood that something was wrong to do more fully and clearly than Adam did in this case

Again your theology here seems right in line with the doctrine of OS. The Bible tells us that we are all, "by NATURE, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), but that's not the way God created our first parents in the Garden (Genesis 1:26; Ecclesiastes 7:29). He made them upright and in His very image, but we, as their progeny, are now begotten in their fallen/tarnished image instead.

Who are the "GODS" that you refer to here Do you believe that Adam and Eve are mythological characters like the Roman, Greek and Norse "gods" are? The Bible is absolutely clear about the fact that there is ONE God, and it is just as clear that no other "Gods" were formed before He was, and also that no other "Gods" will be formed afterwards (i.e. Isaiah 43:10). He is our One and only, from everlasting to everlasting (Psalms 90:2)

How can you possibly know that if you don't know what God's "original intent" was And if this is true, that we have somehow muddied or lost completely the message that God was hoping to communicate to us, then the Bible we use (and you use), should be discarded immediately. If God has been unable to preserve His word to us, then we are left with something that cannot fail to lead us away from Him and thereby into Hell!

How can you possibly know that And quite frankly, whenever I've read through the books that are considered lost or discarded (though supposedly written in the 1st Century), the reason they were not included in the Canon quickly becomes self-evident.

Sorry, that's wrong. The first three Early Church Fathers quoted most of the books in the NT in their writings, and they were all born in the mid-late First Century and died in the Second (well, all by one, Clement, Rome's Pope who replaced St. Peter, died in 99 AD). Also, Clement and Ignatius were actually disciples of at least one of the Apostles themselves.

For that matter, we know that St. Paul's epistles were written and read in the churches during his lifetime because he often includes in his letters the fact that he is hoping to see them [the recipients of his letters] soon, or that he hopes to be reunited with them once again. So we are sure that most, if not all, of the NT was written during the 1st Century.

Whoops, I've gotta go for a bit, but I will return and finish the rest of my reply later tonight (Dv).

Yours and His,
David

The reason I can say that Gods intent was for Adam to eat the fruit makes more logical sense than Gods first immortal creation to fail him.

St_Worm2 · Feb 1, 2016

fatboys said:
The reason I can say that Gods intent was for Adam to eat the fruit makes more logical sense than Gods first immortal creation to fail him.

But Fatboys, if God wanted Adam/Eve to eat the fruit from the get-go, why did He make such a big deal out of "forbidding" them to eat it? Why all the lies and deception on God's part then? And why did He immediately curse them (and the snake too) for disobeying Him if that's what He really wanted all along? Does that make sense to you

As for the "logical sense" that God's first man would not end up being a failure, yeah, I can certainly understand your reasoning and sentiment in thinking that. But Adam was still, just a man. And if God really and truly gave Him "free will", why would He turn around and take away the one and only choice he had to make that mattered?

Yours and His,
David

fatboys · Feb 1, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
But Fatboys, if God wanted Adam/Eve to eat the fruit from the get-go, why did He make such a big deal out of "forbidding" them to eat it? Why all the lies and deception on God's part then? And why did He immediately curse them (and the snake too) for disobeying Him if that's what He really wanted all along? Does that make sense to you

As for the "logical sense" that God's first man would not end up being a failure, yeah, I can certainly understand your reasoning and sentiment in thinking that. But Adam was still, just a man. And if God really and truly gave Him "free will", why would He turn around and take away the one and only choice he had to make that mattered?

Yours and His,
David

There were no lies or deception. Adam and Eve could have not eaten the fruit. There would have been another way for mortality to enter the world. When Satan was allowed to tempt them the followed his temptation. wby do you think Satan was allowed to tempt them? Don't you think God knew that Satan was trying to destroy his plan. Satan feel into what God want led to do anyway. And talk about what I believe God did to Adam and Eve when the bible is full of the same thing. Why did he deceive Abraham. Abraham was going to kill his son for one example

St_Worm2 · Feb 1, 2016

fatboys said:
There were no lies or deception....Why did he deceive Abraham. Abraham was going to kill his son for one example

Hi Fatboys, the "deception" (if there really is one), is God leading Adam/Eve to believe that He didn't want them to eat the forbidden fruit when, all along (if the story actually goes the way you guys tell it), He actually did

As for Abraham and Issac, theirs was a test of faithfulness, not unlike Adam and Eve's test of faithfulness concerning the forbidden fruit. The difference? Abraham passed the test (with Isaac's obvious help .. boy is there a lot more to that story than meets the eye .. )

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - something in our discussions reminded me about a question I had concerning, "The Great Apostasy". This will make for a bit of a "conversational drift" (as I've been told it's called here at CF), but is it ok if I ask you about it here anyway?

fatboys · Feb 1, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Fatboys, the "deception" (if there really is one), is God leading Adam/Eve to believe that He didn't want them to eat the forbidden fruit when, all along (if the story actually goes the way you guys tell it), He actually did

As for Abraham and Issac, theirs was a test of faithfulness, not unlike Adam and Eve's test of faithfulness concerning the forbidden fruit. The difference? Abraham passed the test (with Isaac's obvious help .. boy is there a lot more to that story than meets the eye .. )

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - something in our discussions reminded me about a question I had concerning, "The Great Apostasy". This will make for a bit of a "conversational drift" (as I've been told it's called here at CF), but is it ok if I ask you about it here anyway?

I know why but God deceived him by telling him he was going to do it. Who was the test for? God?

St_Worm2 · Feb 1, 2016

No, just like Adam/Eve, the test was for Abraham .. and for us God doesn't need tests to know outcomes, or the true heart of anyone, believer or non-believer. If He did, he would not know the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

fatboys · Feb 1, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
No, just like Adam/Eve, the test was for Abraham .. and for us God doesn't need tests to know outcomes, or the true heart of anyone, believer or non-believer. If He did, he would not know the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

Okay. Since God knew that Adam was going to eat the fruit that must have been his plan all along

St_Worm2 · Feb 1, 2016

God knows when you and I are going to sin, just like He knew Adam/Eve were going to disobey Him and eat the forbidden fruit before they did. Are you saying that because He knows this ahead of time and He allows it to occur, that means sinning is His "plan" or intention for us, and that all the while He's been telling us not to disobey Him, He actually wants us to disobey Him instead? Does that make sense to you

fatboys · Feb 2, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
God knows when you and I are going to sin, just like He knew Adam/Eve were going to disobey Him and eat the forbidden fruit before they did. Are you saying that because He knows this ahead of time and He allows it to occur, that means sinning is His "plan" or intention for us, and that all the while He's been telling us not to disobey Him, He actually wants us to disobey Him instead? Does that make sense to you

It was his plan for us to go through the opposites of all things so we can gain knowledge. We wouldn't know what righteousness is unless we knew unrighteousness. We wouldn't know what light is without darkness. We wouldn't know pleasure is without pain. We could not learn these things unless we were mortal and subject to death because we truly would not know life without knowing death.
God is perfect. He cannot create anything that was not perfect. If he did then he would no longer be perfect. If he is no longer perfect then he is no longer God.
Now from my perspective of your perspective God is all knowing. God is all powerful. You believe that when God created Adam and Eve that they were to remain in the garden of Eden forever multiplying and replenishing the earth. You believe God did not want sin to enter into the world. You believe that God already knew that Adam was going to disobey because he was going to give him freedom to choose. But God did not want them to disobey. If this is true why did God create them in the first place? Why did he allow lucifer to tempt? Why put a forbidden fruit in their reach? Since God already knew the out come why did he have to test Adam. What difference would it make if it was for Adams sake? After Adam had eaten the fruit why didn't God just poof him out of existance. He is God. why did God allow Satan to rebell and take one third of the host of heaven? Why didn't he just annihilate them into nothing from where they came from? It just makes God a weak mistake ridden God. It just does not make sense.
Now follow how logical our perspective is in Gods plan.
Matter has always existed but has been reorganized over and over again. The very essence or character that makes up all of us has always existed. God then took this essence of character or intelligence and placed it into a perfect spirit body that would live forever. We lived with God the father in his realm. We learned and grew in knowledge. We were progressing towards becoming like our Father in Heaven. We learned as much as we could in this realm. Now God is a great organizer. He took the matter and reorganized it into worlds, Suns, moons, stars and many other creations. He also created this earth so that we could transition from spirit to the physical. Not just physical but mortal. As a spirit we could not experience physical. But God is perfect. God could not create mortals or he would be imperfect. God had a perfect plan. He would create perfect physical man and woman. He would give them freedom to choose. He would also give commandments. God knew they would eat an thus mortality would enter into the world and God is still perfect. Didn't make any mistakes. We come to earth to fulfill gods plan for us to eternally progress and become as he is. Makes much more sense to me.

St_Worm2 · Feb 3, 2016

fatboys said:
It was his plan for us to go through the opposites of all things so we can gain knowledge. We wouldn't know what righteousness is unless we knew unrighteousness. We wouldn't know what light is without darkness.

So until I murder someone or rob a bank, I won't be able to understand why I shouldn't do it, why God told me not to?

fatboys said:
We wouldn't know pleasure without pain.

So we need to abuse our wives, our children, and our dogs, so they'll finally be able to appreciate the good times I can understand that something is wonderful or nice w/o needing to experience it's opposite first, and that, even as a young child. Surely you can/did as well, yes

fatboys said:
We could not learn these things unless we were mortal and subject to death because we truly would not know life without knowing death.

So we can't truly appreciate life until we die? Bummer

fatboys said:
God is perfect. He cannot create anything that was not perfect. If he did then he would no longer be perfect. If he is no longer perfect then he is no longer God.

Please name one absolutely "perfect" thing in this world that is not directly from God. And while I do believe that there are things which God cannot do, you know, make 2 + 2 = 5, make a square circle, or make a rock so big He can lift it, I certainly believe our omnipotent God can make something that is not "perfect" if He chooses to do so (since He can do anything that is "possible" to do). Such an act on His part would hardly render Him imperfect since He is the Creator of all things and not part of His own Creation (well, according to Christianity and the Bible anyway ). Quite frankly, the Bible teaches us that He chooses to make imperfect things for His own purposes (i.e. Romans 9:21-22), which certainly doesn't make Him imperfect either.

fatboys said:
Now from my perspective of your perspective God is all knowing. God is all powerful. You believe that when God created Adam and Eve that they were to remain in the garden of Eden forever multiplying and replenishing the earth. You believe God did not want sin to enter into the world. You believe that God already knew that Adam was going to disobey because he was going to give him freedom to choose. But God did not want them to disobey. If this is true why did God create them in the first place? Why did he allow Lucifer to tempt? Why put a forbidden fruit in their reach? Since God already knew the out come why did he have to test Adam. What difference would it make if it was for Adams sake? After Adam had eaten the fruit why didn't God just poof him out of existence. He is God. Why did God allow Satan to rebel and take one third of the host of heaven? Why didn't he just annihilate them into nothing from where they came from? It just makes God a weak mistake ridden God. It just does not make sense.

I believe God gave Adam (and us) "free will" so that He could have a real relationship with us, and we with Him. So that we, as free agents (not as programmed robots), would be able to love and adore Him, worship and glorify Him, and enjoy Him forever in response to His great love for us (i.e. 1 John 3:19), not because He "forced" us to

As far as why He chose to find a way to redeem fallen humanity (or why He created us at all, knowing what would become of us and what we would choose) I think the answer can be found in His loving nature and His desire to give or share of Himself (i.e. His love and His goodness) with His children, the "bride" He had long ago promised to His Son.

You believe God is "weak" or "mistake ridden" because He chose to love us and redeem us in spite of our poor choices Wow, I must say that I feel for the children of Mormons if that's what you all believe We Christians see God's loving, gracious and forgiving nature as a "strength" of His, not a "weakness"! But you are free to your own opinion, of course!

fatboys said:
Now follow how logical our perspective is in Gods plan. Matter has always existed but has been reorganized over and over again. The very essence or character that makes up all of us has always existed. God then took this essence of character or intelligence and placed it into a perfect spirit body that would live forever.

You guys believe God was a man before He was God. If God was a man before He was God, who "ORGANIZED" the matter that made that possible?

fatboys said:
We lived with God the father in his realm. We learned and grew in knowledge. We were progressing towards becoming like our Father in Heaven. We learned as much as we could in this realm.

Wait, so we ALL preexisted then according to Mormonism? NONE were created. Space/time/matter/energy/beings all existed like God, from everlasting according to the LDS. But if that's true, again, how could the one you guys now call "God" have ever existed as a "man" first? What being or "intelligent designer" made that possible in his case

fatboys said:
Now God is a great organizer. He took the matter and reorganized it into worlds, Suns, moons, stars and many other creations. He also created this earth so that we could transition from spirit to the physical. Not just physical but mortal. As a spirit we could not experience physical. But God is perfect. God could not create mortals or he would be imperfect.

Again, God can do anything that is POSSIBLE to do. And creating something that is not as perfect as He is in no way makes Him "imperfect". I cannot understand why you would believe that

fatboys said:
God had a perfect plan. He would create perfect physical man and woman. He would give them freedom to choose. He would also give commandments.

So far, this is exactly what Christianity teaches. He created man in "His" image, He gave us free will, and He gave our first parents a single commandment that they were required to obey.

fatboys said:
God knew they would eat an thus mortality would enter into the world and God is still perfect. Didn't make any mistakes. We come to earth to fulfill gods plan for us to eternally progress and become as he is. Makes much more sense to me.

That God is omniscient (knowing the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:10), that He knew our first parents would eat/disobey and that He would, as a result, have to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life (so they would not live forever in a decaying, fallen, and sinful state, cut off from ever again being in God's presence) is what we also teach. That doesn't make Him "imperfect" and doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that He made "mistakes", unless choosing to "love" us and "redeem" us, which He chose to do before He made us, is also a "mistake" He knew what would happen, He chose to act accordingly and lovingly towards us, and He accomplished what He intended to accomplish. As Jesus told us in the sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him .. and of all those He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING". No "mistakes" were made, just God's loving, gracious plan from eternity past (Ephesians 1:4-6) being brought to fruition, exactly as He planned it

Yours and His,
David

fatboys · Feb 3, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
So until I murder someone or rob a bank, I won't be able to understand why I shouldn't do it, why God told me not to?

So we need to abuse our wives, our children, and our dogs, so they'll finally be able to appreciate the good times I can understood that something was wonderful or nice w/o needing to experience it's opposite first, and that, even as a young child. Surely you can/did as well, yes

So we can't truly appreciate life until we die? Bummer

Please name one absolutely "perfect" thing in this world that is not directly from God. And while I do believe that there are things which God cannot do, you know, make 2 + 2 = 5, make a square circle, or make a rock so big He can lift it, I certainly believe our omnipotent God can make something that is not "perfect" if He chooses to do so (since He can do anything that is "possible" to do). Such an act on His part would hardly render Him imperfect, since He is the Creator of all things and not part of His own Creation (well, according to Christianity and the Bible anyway). Quite frankly, the Bible tells us that He chooses to make imperfect things for His own purposes (i.e. Romans 9:21-22), which certainly doesn't make Him imperfect either.

I believe God gave Adam (and us) "free will" so that He could have a real relationship with us, and we with Him. So that we, as free agents (not as programmed robots), would be able to love and adore Him, worship and glorify Him, and enjoy Him forever in response to His great love for us (i.e. 1 John 3:19), not because He "forced" us to

As far as why He chose to find a way to redeem fallen humanity (or why He created us at all, knowing what would become of us and what we would choose) I would think the answer to all of that can be found in His loving nature and His desire to give or share of Himself, of His love and His goodness with us, His children, the "bride" He had long ago promised to His Son.

You believe God is "weak" or "mistake ridden" because He chose to love us and redeem us in spite of our poor choices Wow, I must say that I feel for the children of Mormons if that's what you all believe We Christians see God's loving and gracious nature, and His choice to send His Son to die for us and redeem us (rather than live on without us), as a "strength" of His, not a "weakness"! But you are free to your own opinion, of course!

You guys believe God was a "man" before He was "God". If "God" was a "man" before He was "God", what being "ORGANIZED" the matter that made that possible?

Wait, so we ALL preexisted then according to Mormonism? But if that's true, again, how could the one you guys now call "God" have ever existed as a "man" first What being or "intelligent designer" made that possible

Again, God can do ANYTHING that is possible to do. And creating something that is not as perfect as He is in no way makes God "imperfect". I cannot understand why you would believe that

So far, this is exactly what Christianity teaches. He created man in "His" image, He gave us the freedom to choose, and He gave our first parents a single commandment that they were required to obey.

That God is omniscient (knowing the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:10), that He knew our first parents would eat/disobey and that He would, as a result, have to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life (so they would not live forever in a decaying, fallen, and sinful state, cut off forever from ever again being in God's presence) is what we also teach. That doesn't make Him "imperfect" and doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that He made "mistakes", unless choosing to "love" us and "redeem" us, which He chose to do before He made us, is also a "mistake" He knew what would happen, He chose to act accordingly and lovingly towards us, and He accomplished what He intended to accomplish. As Jesus told us in the sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him/gives him to Me .. and that of all those He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING". No "mistakes" were made, just God's loving, gracious plan from eternity past (Ephesians 1:4-6) being brought to fruition, exactly as He planned it

Yours and His,
David

I always thought that there were words or a different combination of words that would help make my beliefs understandable. I feel I have failed.

St_Worm2 · Feb 3, 2016

Hi Fatboys, I admit that my first three replies were, to a degree, intentionally tongue in cheek, but they were certainly not a departure from truth as I understand it, and my hope was that you'd rethink some of the things you said to their logical conclusion.

As for your church's belief that God could no longer be God unless certain conditions exist, like 1) He can't make anything that's mortal or 2) that by choosing to create something that is not as perfect as He is thereby makes Him "imperfect" etc., I understand what you are saying but I simply believe you are wrong, Biblically, of course, but logically as well.

And as for "God" being a "man" first, you are going to have to explain how that one could possibly work if another "God" didn't preexist Him. Look, if "God" was once just like we are now, a "man", then who or what made his physical life, the world he lived on, the moon orbiting his planet and the sun to warm it, etc., if it wasn't Him? IOW, who or what existed before the one you now call "God" to make his life as a man .. possible?

You need to give me a bit more of a foundation, or a look farther back, if any of this is going to make sense to me (or be considered true for any other reason than, "the LDS say it is"). This is made particularly difficult for me because if what you say is true, God becomes the true "Deceiver" of man, and His word to us, a great portion of it anyway, an outright "lie".

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - I do want to mention that I'm sorry that you feel you are not communicating properly as it is truly not my intention to aggravate of frustrate you or anything of the sort. My intention is to learn about what you guys believe and why, and while I doubt I will ever believe what you do, I can't say that for sure if I don't understand "why" you came to believe what you do. I hope that makes sense

fatboys · Feb 4, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Fatboys, I admit that my first three replies were, to a degree, intentionally tongue in cheek, but they were certainly not a departure from truth as I understand it, and my hope was that you'd rethink some of the things you said to their logical conclusion.

As for your church's belief that God could no longer be God unless certain conditions exist, like 1) He can't make anything that's mortal or 2) that by choosing to create something that is not as perfect as He is thereby makes Him "imperfect" etc., I understand what you are saying but I simply believe you are wrong, Biblically, of course, but logically as well.

And as for "God" being a "man" first, you are going to have to explain how that one could possibly work if another "God" didn't preexist Him. Look, if "God" was once just like we are now, a "man", then who or what made his physical life, the world he lived on, the moon orbiting his planet and the sun to warm it, etc., if it wasn't Him? IOW, who or what existed before the one you now call "God" to make his life as a man .. possible?

You need to give me a bit more of a foundation, or a look farther back, if any of this is going to make sense to me (or be considered true for any other reason than, "the LDS say it is"). This is made particularly difficult for me because if what you say is true, God becomes the true "Deceiver" of man, and His word to us, a great portion of it anyway, an outright "lie".

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - I do want to mention that I'm sorry that you feel you are not communicating properly as it is truly not my intention to aggravate of frustrate you or anything of the sort. My intention is to learn about what you guys believe and why, and while I doubt I will ever believe what you do, I can't say that for sure if I don't understand "why" you came to believe what you do. I hope that makes sense

Well if you were sincerely wanting to know I would think a better approach would be to accept that because you are ingrained your own belief and can not even think that the LDS approach could be possible means that you will never really understand it. I have tried to show both sides and tried not to mock or take away from what you believe. When you repeat the same thing over and then I have to try and repeat in a different way hoping it will finally make sense and it doesn't just makes me frustrated.
For the life of me I really do not see how you cannot understand that if a perfect God makes something imperfect that he could still be perfect is beyond my understanding.
For the life of me I cannot understand why you cannot understand that if Adam and Eve were immortal yet innocent how you think they could sin since they had no knowledge of good and evil. Innocence brought sin into the world and innocence took it away.
For the life of me I cannot understand how you do not understand that and good and kind Father would want us to be like him. Perfect.
As for the chicken or the egg. All forms of matter have always existed. It was not just made from nothing. Matter can not be created nor can it be destroyed. It's energy can be rearranged. That is all God does. God is the title we give to those who know all things which can give all power. According to science this is not the only universe. Within just our seen universe are billions of galaxies. Billions or maybe more. After the creation of the universe do you think that God focused in one solar system in a mediocr Galaxy to begin a creation of immortal beings to live for ever but only have it undone by another creatin? I will never understand this one.
Our Father in Heaven had a Father just like he had a father and mother and so on. Of course I am just speculating on this. God's purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The Glory of God is intelligence. In or ther words we are his glory

St_Worm2 · Feb 5, 2016

fatboys said:
...I have tried to show both sides and tried not to mock or take away from what you believe. When you repeat the same thing over and then I have to try and repeat in a different way hoping it will finally make sense and it doesn't just makes me frustrated.

Hi Fatboys, I apologize for that. I was replying to each thing you wrote as I read it more or less and I should have looked back and made a single reply concerning that one issue. I'll be careful not to do it again.

fatboys said:
I really do not see how you cannot understand that if a perfect God makes something imperfect that he could still be perfect is beyond my understanding.

There are many who say, "God is love", and while that is absolutely true, He is also "Holy", "Righteous", and "Just". IOW, He is certainly loving, but He is not so to the exclusion of any of His other attributes. God has MANY attributes and they are not in conflict with one another. In fact, understanding what they mean individually requires that they be understood as they exist in harmony with each other, and so it must be with His omnipotence and His perfection. Because you are so adamant about your position on this however, I will consider it again and get back to you.

fatboys said:
If Adam and Eve were immortal yet innocent how you think they could sin since they had no knowledge of good and evil. Innocence brought sin into the world and innocence took it away.

Well, they certainly had experiential knowledge of "good", what they didn't have was the experience of breaking a specific commandment of God. They certainly had more than adequate prior knowledge that transgressing God's commandment to them was wrong, and they had prior knowledge that such an act would result in grave consequences. And while it was an "innocent" Man who made eternal life possible again for all who believe, it was hardly an "innocent" man who took it away from us in the first place. Adam, as they say, was "guilty as sin". "Innocence" did not bring sin into this realm, but Adam's "disobedience" sure did.

fatboys said:
I cannot understand how you do not understand that and good and kind Father would want us to be like him. Perfect.

I believe He made us that way to begin with (i.e. Genesis 1:26; Ecclesiastes 7:29), so it was His intention all along that we should be good, holy, just, righteous, loving........... Perfect in that way, yes That He intended that we should become, "gods", like you guys mean, with attributes like omnipotence and omniscience, you're right, I don't believe that because it violates what God tells us is possible and what isn't. There is ONE God, and He alone is from everlasting (Isaiah 43:10; Psalms 90:2). That's what the Bible says anyway.

There is absolutely nothing that has ever brought itself into existence. I don't look at a Rolex watch, for instance, and wonder how it came to be, it's clear that it had an intelligent designer And while you teach that EVERYTHING (god/man/space/time/matter/energy) existed from everlasting, that's not what the Bible says. Rather, the Bible tells us, "In the beginning, God created.........." and goes on to expound on that theme throughout its pages (Creatio Ex Nihilo, i.e. John 1:3; Romans 4:17; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 11:3......). We are also taught, starting with Genesis 1:1, that there was a "beginning" to the universe and that God was already there (which adds even more weight to the Biblical argument).

I've gotta run, but I do want to finish up the last part as there is certainly quite a bit of interesting stuff there. I promise I will do my best to try to rethink your position on much of this from your point of view and I'll let you know what I discover.

Yours and His,
David

fatboys · Feb 6, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Fatboys, I apologize for that. I was replying to each thing you wrote as I read it more or less and I should have looked back and made a single reply concerning that one issue. I'll be careful not to do it again.

There are many who say, "God is love", and while that is absolutely true, He is also "Holy", "Righteous", and "Just". IOW, He is certainly loving, but He is not so to the exclusion of any of His other attributes. God has MANY attributes and they are not in conflict with one another. In fact, understanding what they mean individually requires that they be understood as they exist in harmony with each other, and so it must be with His omnipotence and His perfection. Because you are so adamant about your position on this however, I will consider it again and get back to you.

God does have many attributes. I have many attributes and they are in direct connection with the attributes my father had. You do not believe they we have divine attributes yet we are the offspring of immortal Adam and Eve which God created. Did thy have divine attributes? I have another question. As I have said I am a farmer. I use to run about 250 head of mother cows. I have spent many hours doctoring them and seeing life begin and end. I have literally been up to my shoulders in a cow trying to rearrange a calf coming out wrong or trying to put chaines on the front feet of a calf that was to big for the cow to have and pulling it. If the calf survives it has always amazed me to see that within a hour or less of a difficult birth the calf will get up and look for something to eat. Even if it's head and tongue is swollen from the blood being forced up to them from the contractions it will get up and look for something to eat. Why do you think that he made us so helpless? The only thing we can do is cry. Why did God have to have two parents for the sharing of DNA to make a baby? Why did Adam live to be 964 years old and we can barely make it to a hundred? In all of Gods power and authority couldn't he have created a paradise where we could live in perfect peace and harmony? Without evil and wickedness, without wars and rumors of wars. If God is love and he is suppose to be all powerful why did he give Adam and Eve freedom to choose? What was so important to God that Adam and Eve have this freedom of choice? If God wanted us to worship him why not make us worship him? We could have still been in the garden of Eden and enjoyed life to its fullest. When Adam and Eve disobeyed why didn't he just destroy them and start over? Why make us go through this life and suffer their mistake? Does this sound like a just and loving God? Why didn't God destroy Satan and those that followed him and completely rid himself of evil so we do not have to deal with it? Why would he allow Satan to tempt not only Adam and Eve but us as will? What would be the good of exposing us to evil? Isn't evil bad? Is there some power over God that he could not destroy those who disobey him? He certainly destroyed sodom and Gomorrah. He certainly flooded the earth and destroyed evil then, why wait until evil can get its foot hold?

Well, they certainly had experiential knowledge of "good", what they didn't have was the experience of breaking a specific commandment of God. They certainly had more than adequate prior knowledge that transgressing God's commandment to them was wrong, and they had prior knowledge that such an act would result in grave consequences. And while it was an "innocent" Man who made eternal life possible again for all who believe, it was hardly an "innocent" man who took it away from us in the first place. Adam, as they say, was "guilty as sin". "Innocence" did not bring sin into this realm, but Adam's "disobedience" sure did. [\quote]

I have said all along that disobedience brought sin into the world. Adam was exposed to good but did not know it was really good because he had not been exposed to bad. Because he did not know what good was he certainly did not know what bad was. Doesn't it make sense that innocence brought sin into the world? It has to be innocence or christs innocence is less powerful than Adams sin.

I believe He made us that way to begin with (i.e. Genesis 1:26; Ecclesiastes 7:29), so it was His intention all along that we should be good, holy, just, righteous, loving........... Perfect in that way, yes That He intended that we should become, "gods", like you guys mean, with attributes like omnipotence and omniscience, you're right, I don't believe that because it violates what God tells us is possible and what isn't. There is ONE God, and He alone is from everlasting (Isaiah 43:10; Psalms 90:2). That's what the Bible says anyway.

There is absolutely nothing that has ever brought itself into existence. I don't look at a Rolex watch, for instance, and wonder how it came to be, it's clear that it had an intelligent designer And while you teach that EVERYTHING (god/man/space/time/matter/energy) existed from everlasting, that's not what the Bible says. Rather, the Bible tells us, "In the beginning, God created.........." and goes on to expound on that theme throughout its pages (Creatio Ex Nihilo, i.e. John 1:3; Romans 4:17; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 11:3......). We are also taught, starting with Genesis 1:1, that there was a "beginning" to the universe and that God was already there (which adds even more weight to the Biblical argument).

I've gotta run, but I do want to finish up the last part as there is certainly quite a bit of interesting stuff there. I promise I will do my best to try to rethink your position on much of this from your point of view and I'll let you know what I discover.

Yours and His,
David

Click to expand...

Can you grasp the concept of eternity? Do you have the capacity to draw a line on a paper and take it to forever? What is the closest thing you have that even helps you gain the smallest underdtanding of eternity? Are there enough words in any language to bring us closer to understanding eternity? How on earth do you think that the bible could relay eternal truths done through language that cannot express understanding? Do I understand the eternities? Good grief no but because of the restoration I have a bigger picture of it. For your understanding of God and his works you rely on one book which was put together by men who could not understand eternity or have the words to express it adequately.

St_Worm2 · Feb 6, 2016

fatboys said:
God does have many attributes. I have many attributes and they are in direct connection with the attributes my father had. You do not believe they we have divine attributes yet we are the offspring of immortal Adam and Eve which God created. Did thy have divine attributes?

If they were "immortal" when they gave birth to our ancestors (Cain/Seth and beyond), why did they die?/why do we die? Romans 5:12's teaching concerning death entering our realm due to Adam's sin is a pretty good indicator that immortality was God's original plan for us, but where does the Bible indicate they were "immortal" AFTER they fell?

BTW, what do LDS teach along these lines about the "Tree of Life" and why eating its fruit was necessary?

fatboys said:
Why do you think that he made us so helpless? The only thing we can do is cry. Why did God have to have two parents for the sharing of DNA to make a baby? Why did Adam live to be 964 years old and we can barely make it to a hundred? In all of Gods power and authority couldn't he have created a paradise where we could live in perfect peace and harmony? Without evil and wickedness, without wars and rumors of wars. If God is love and he is suppose to be all powerful why did he give Adam and Eve freedom to choose? What was so important to God that Adam and Eve have this freedom of choice? If God wanted us to worship him why not make us worship him? We could have still been in the garden of Eden and enjoyed life to its fullest. When Adam and Eve disobeyed why didn't he just destroy them and start over? Why make us go through this life and suffer their mistake? Does this sound like a just and loving God? Why didn't God destroy Satan and those that followed him and completely rid himself of evil so we do not have to deal with it? Why would he allow Satan to tempt not only Adam and Eve but us as will? What would be the good of exposing us to evil? Isn't evil bad? Is there some power over God that he could not destroy those who disobey him? He certainly destroyed sodom and Gomorrah. He certainly flooded the earth and destroyed evil then, why wait until evil can get its foot hold?

That's way more than just "another question" Quickly however ..

"Small and helpless" - (not sure why, but our need to fit inside mama for nine months .. and need to be born w/o killing her might have something to do with it ) God often demonstrates spiritual realities, physically (Israel being the prime example), so I suspect this is part of it as well + of course, the need for family and for each other.

"Free Will" - if you could have "programmed" your wife and caused/forced her to "act" like she loved you (which is not 'real' love, of course), would you have chosen that over the kind of real relationship you have with her now? Why not? Would God be satisfied with the faux love, honor and adoration of a robot He programmed either?

"Why did Adam live 930 years, and we now 120 years of less?" - I "assume" it may have something to do with the level of sinful corruption not being as great in the earlier generations, plus the far greater need to expand the fledgling human race at that point in history. There is also Genesis 6:3's "120" years, but does that mean that it's "120 years" from that point until the flood comes, and/or did God set a "general" limit on the lifespan of men from that point forward (though a few men like Noah, and even Abraham, lived longer than than that). What does the LDS teach about Genesis 6:3?

"Why didn't God destroy Adam/Eve due to their first sinful choice" - Agapao

"Why does he make us "suffer" rather than "end" us? - Agapao (this is also why He chose to die rather than live w/o us)

"Evil .. bad"? - Yes // Free will choice of "righteousness" instead of "evil" however? - GOOD

"Power OVER God"? - if there is a single "maverick molecule" in the universe that is free of God's control and therefore has even indirect control over Him, then "God" is simply a very powerful being, but He is certainly not "God".

Why no more world-wide "Floods"? - see God's "promise"/"covenant"/"rainbow" made with us in Genesis 9:11-13

"Why not destroy evil locally as it happens"? - He is patient, even with great sinfulness, just like He was for years with Sodom. None will be able to say in the Judgment that God gave them no chance to repent. He is also patient for the sake of the Elect, making sure all of them have time to come to repentance so that none of them are lost (John 6:39; 2 Peter 3:9). For some verses to consider along these lines and others, see: Romans 2:4; Romans 9:22-23; Romans 11:25 ...

Fatboys, many of your questions were worthy of having threads of their own .. so I apologize for not answering them more fully, but I assume you have a general point to make about all of them together, yes?

Yours and His,
David

St_Worm2 · Feb 6, 2016

fatboys said:
I have said all along that disobedience brought sin into the world. Adam was exposed to good but did not know it was really good because he had not been exposed to bad. Because he did not know what good was he certainly did not know what bad was. Doesn't it make sense that innocence brought sin into the world? It has to be innocence or christs innocence is less powerful than Adams sin.

I found more of your reply buried................

Sin and death entered the world because Adam was guilty, not because he was innocent. Adam knew that obeying God = good, disobeying Him = bad. And he also knew ahead of time that there would be grave consequences if he disobeyed and ate. Adam was innocent before he ate and guilty afterwards, especially since he knew beforehand (as I said in an earlier thread, there has probably never been a man in history who had more knowledge and understanding that something was wrong/bad to do than Adam did concerning eating the forbidden fruit, since the commandment came directly from God's lips to his ears ).

Christ's "innocence" is less "powerful" that Adam's sin You are definitely going to need to elaborate a little bit further on that one! Thanks!

Original Sin

Does the Holy Bible support the notion of Original Sin?

Yes

No

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