Original sin

[Wedjat]

Ok, so next part of the question. Do you think that Adam and Eve are central to a belief in original sin, or can the concept somehow be derived completely from metaphor?

 

[freeport]

Ok, so next part of the question. Do you think that Adam and Eve are central to a belief in original sin, or can the concept somehow be derived completely from metaphor?

The concept can be derived from metaphor. The only important concept there is really just that people were created - not God, not the Creator - and so imperfect. This imperfection is like a childhood, or like a seed for a plant. It is a stage which is necessary to eventually fully become one with God as a child of God.

God is Love and all perfection is found in Love.

Love is ecstasy: Heaven.

 

[Wedjat]

So original sin = human imperfection?
And human imperfection is an ingrained trait, not only that it causes people to sin, but in itself could also be considered a sin.
Because we are not God, we are not perfect.
So is sin just being different from God? To be sinless, we would have to emulate God/Jesus perfectly, and although impossible, we simply have to do our best and put our faith in Jesus?

Is this correct?

 

[drich0150]

So is sin just being different from God? To be sinless, we would have to emulate God/Jesus perfectly, and although impossible, we simply have to do our best and put our faith in Jesus?
Is this correct?

Sort of.

Loosely you have an idea as to the what is going on, but have over looked the why.

 

[Wedjat]

What's the why?

 

[drich0150]

I may have given you these definitions before, but bear with me.

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, is malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

Free will is the ability to choose something not in the expressed will of God.

We have been given the ability to sin (Free will) so that we may openly choose God. In order for there to be a choice we must have something to choose from (God's will or our own.) But in choosing anything not in the expressed will of God even once, we disqualify ourselves from being able to be with God. So enter Jesus and His blood sacrifice. What Jesus did wipes away all our sin leaving only these questions. Do we love God with all of our being, and did we use everything we have been given to openly express that love to Him?

Heaven and Hell are not about rewarding the good, and punishing the sinful. Because truth be told we are all sinful and none Deserve Heaven. Heaven is the place where sinful people who love God, and know Jesus can do so, and Hell is the place where people who do not love God with all of their being can go to be away from God.

Being good, doing our best or at least our version of it has nothing to do with righteousness (Or deserving Heaven) The only people who are found righteous before the Lord are those who love Him with all of their being, and express that love through the work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[Wedjat]

Is God intrinsically good, or does God define what good is?

Does God have free will?

Do you define hell as fire 'n brimstone, eternal suffering and torment or simply a state of being away from God.

 

[drich0150]

Is God intrinsically good, or does God define what good is?

God defines what good is. Besides God what other standard of "good" can there be? Our standards vary from culture to culture, and generation to generation. In short we define "good" as whatever it is we are collectively and currently doing. even if that is something that was once considered evil, or vise versa.

..And, God's standards have not changed.

So if Good is a constant, like truth then our standards must be built on unchanging goodness.

Does God have free will?

God's will is free, but that is not the same as asking is God able to sin. Because whatever is in His will would be in fact God's will and not sin.

Do you define hell as fire 'n brimstone, eternal suffering and torment or simply a state of being away from God.

I believe that "Fire" is used in scripture to described the emotional state that is created when we are apart from God, or in other words it's how you feel when Being consumed or enveloped by the great nothingness. Because Hell is a void, it is a place lacking any part of God or creation, and being members of God's created universe we crave (If not God Himself) Being apart of what he has created.

The suffering and torment doesn't come from the devil, because he and the fallen are there as we are, enduring the same things. We all suffer because we will have known all of who God is, and all he had to offer, and yet we will have chose to love ourselves and/or our theologies over God... and just when your mind has taken in the reality of your situation, the ever lasting reality of eternity kicks in, and the weeping and gnashing of teeth will really begin..

Hell is not literal Fire and brimstone, it is much much worse. Fire and brimstone was simply the worst possible way to spend eternity that people back then could imagine. It's like describing the ocean as being wet. It is wet, but the vastness and all it contains is not served properly by using only the word wet to describe it.. But, for the majority of us (then and now) wet is all that we will be able to comprehend. So for them "Wet" or fire is enough, to get the point across.

I also believe that Before there was any part of creation there was God, and He existed in nothingness. From nothingness He call the universe into existence. It is to that nothingness that all who do not wish to be with God will go.. From there we (with all that we are, apart from what God as given us.) will have the same opportunities He Had. That is to call into existence whatever life or universe we wish to make for ourself.. That said, I wouldn't get your hopes up, unless you can do this for youself now.

 

[Wedjat]

God defines what good is. Besides God what other standard of "good" can there be? Our standards vary from culture to culture, and generation to generation. In short we define "good" as whatever it is we are collectively and currently doing. even if that is something that was once considered evil, or vise versa.

Gods will is good, regardless of what his will may be. That explains a lot actually.

..And, God's standards have not changed.

So if Good is a constant, like truth then our standards must be built on unchanging goodness.

Don't think I didn't notice that, we already got our posts removed for that argument, lets not do that again.
Ok, but serious question then. Does this support biblical legalism?

God's will is free, but that is not the same as asking is God able to sin. Because whatever is in His will would be in fact God's will and not sin.

Does this pose an issue for his omnipotence then?

I believe that "Fire" is used in scripture to described the emotional state that is created when we are apart from God, or in other words it's how you feel when Being consumed or enveloped by the great nothingness. Because Hell is a void, it is a place lacking any part of God or creation, and being members of God's created universe we crave (If not God Himself) Being apart of what he has created.

The suffering and torment doesn't come from the devil, because he and the fallen are there as we are, enduring the same things. We all suffer because we will have known all of who God is, and all he had to offer, and yet we will have chose to love ourselves and/or our theologies over God... and just when your mind has taken in the reality of your situation, the ever lasting reality of eternity kicks in, and the weeping and gnashing of teeth will really begin..

Hell is not literal Fire and brimstone, it is much much worse. Fire and brimstone was simply the worst possible way to spend eternity that people back then could imagine. It's like describing the ocean as being wet. It is wet, but the vastness and all it contains is not served properly by using only the word wet to describe it.. But, for the majority of us (then and now) wet is all that we will be able to comprehend. So for them "Wet" or fire is enough, to get the point across.

Intriguing, I've never heard it described like that before.

I also believe that Before there was any part of creation there was God, and He existed in nothingness. From nothingness He call the universe into existence. It is to that nothingness that all who do not wish to be with God will go.. From there we (with all that we are, apart from what God as given us.) will have the same opportunities He Had. That is to call into existence whatever life or universe we wish to make for ourself.. That said, I wouldn't get your hopes up, unless you can do this for youself now.

Well I guess I'll have an eternity to figure it out though.
What if the christian god was just a castoff soul from some other god, and then after a while he figured out how to create his own universe and told us all that he was god?

 

[drich0150]

Does this support biblical legalism?

In the old Covenant with the Jews righteousness was obtain through the law.

In the new covenant we find righteousness apart from the Law..

So to answer you question directly, Yes and No.

Does this pose an issue for his omnipotence then?

How so?

What if the christian god was just a castoff soul from some other god, and then after a while he figured out how to create his own universe and told us all that he was god?

Then I should suspect that The other god would take issue with Our God is doing..
After all if "he" was involved enough to cast anyone into the void, then he would probably see to it that whomever stayed there..

..and again what I wrote there was personal speculation and not scripturally backed doctrine..

Well I guess I'll have an eternity to figure it out though.

I hope not.

 

[Wedjat]

In the old Covenant with the Jews righteousness was obtain through the law.

In the new covenant we find righteousness apart from the Law..

So to answer you question directly, Yes and No.

Why does God make a new covenant if he is unchanging?

How so?

Omnipotence means all powerful, you can do whatever you want.
If god is physically unable to sin because anything that he does is of his will, and anything of his will is not a sin, then he is not able to do anything.
It's seems paradoxical, akin to that old and stale "Could God make a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it?"
It's wordplay mostly, and I don't hold it in any kind of regard, but by definition, the mere existence of an omnipotent being brings up paradoxes.
Couldn't he just be very very powerful?

Then I should suspect that The other god would take issue with Our God is doing..
After all if "he" was involved enough to cast anyone into the void, then he would probably see to it that whomever stayed there..

There ain't enough room in this endless void for the two of us...

I hope not.

I had always kind of been under the assumption that heaven and hell were forever.
Do souls "die"?

 

[drich0150]

Why does God make a new covenant if he is unchanging?

He hasn't changed nor has the plan of salvation. We were given this plan in two parts so that we may establish and understand the nature of sin, it's true consequence and cost.
What meaning would it have if God simply sacrificed Jesus in the beginning? we would not be able to have a complete understanding as to why any of this was done, and none of this would make sense.

In short God didn't change, we did. When we were ready for change, it happened.

Omnipotence means all powerful, you can do whatever you want.
If god is physically unable to sin because anything that he does is of his will, and anything of his will is not a sin, then he is not able to do anything.
It's seems paradoxical, akin to that old and stale "Could God make a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift it?"
It's wordplay mostly, and I don't hold it in any kind of regard, but by definition, the mere existence of an omnipotent being brings up paradoxes.
Couldn't he just be very very powerful?

If it were possible for the finite to comprehend all aspects of infinite, then wouldn't we be infinite being ourselves? How else can one hope to contain an oceans worth of knowledge into a vessel no larger than a shot glass in volume?

Perhaps it is in our understanding in what all powerful means, that the apparent paradox lies. rather than assuming that it is we, who have the complete understanding, and thereby are able to point out inconsistencies in God.

I had always kind of been under the assumption that heaven and hell were forever.
Do souls "die"?

Hell is referred to as the second death in some scripture, but even so it is my understanding that eternity is apart of that death.

 

[Wedjat]

it is my understanding that eternity is apart of that death.

What?

 

[drich0150]

Hell is referred to as the second death. we are born of our mothers and we die, then we are resurrected (all of us) to face our final judgment. If we are condemned we face our second death, but we do not die in this death. I guess it can be called a death, because of those who move on to eternal life go to Heaven, Those who goto Hell move on to a second death. (Heaven= life. Death= Hell)Meaning we are not wiped from existence, but have to face Hell for eternity.

 

[Wedjat]

Right. Well you've explained your positions well enough.

Any other takers?
I would specifically like to hear from someone who denies literal biblical creationism. What are your opinions on original sin?

Of course any other viewpoints are welcome as well.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I would specifically like to hear from someone who denies literal biblical creationism. What are your opinions on original sin?

MY FRIEND,

i waffle back and forth alot between "literal biblical creationism" and "intelligent design."

However, whichever, beliefs in this area have no bearing on original sin. Whether the appearance of man took place on the 6th Day or the 6 billionth day, he turned against his Creator, rebelled against His commandment, and fell from grace, losing the indwelling Holy Spirit--and thus direct contact with God--in the process.

Don't mix issues and confuse yourself even more than you have been already. There is a light at the end of your tunnel--move towards it!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim