Original Sin

[Frankie]

Dear sister, I never said there was a conflict. It is just that I formulate my position somewhat differently than you do.

We have guilt...the guilt of being sinners..but it is not the guilt of Adam's turning away from God..it is our own, which we have like a seed in us, that will sprout to full flower and except for the Grace of God we would wallow in our condemnation unto death. The imputed condemnation flows from the consequences of Adam's action and why we need to accept Jesus - believer's baptism.

If we still disagree, whether it be over semantics or scriptural understanding I hope we are still family.

I believe that we are guilty because of the fall of Adam and because of our own sin. It seems to me that they are both intertwined. Adam and Eve sinned and brought sin into the world, they were cast out of the garden, had sinnful children who had sinnful children and so on and so on. No one but God himself is without sin.

Frankie

 

[BronxBriar]

Let me ask this then (maybe I need clarification):

Are we guilty at conception? at birth? at the age age of reason?

If we are held accountable for Adam's transgression how and when is that guilt taken away?

How is your position different from the RC position? One reason they baptise infants is to take the guilt of Adam's sin away and infuse them with sanctifying grace that was NOT there at conception. But we Baptists don't do that so do children live with the guilt until they accept Jesus or are baptised as believers?

 

[BronxBriar]

Gadzooks! maybe I am Arminian.

The Remonstrant (Arminian) view is set forth in the Apology For Confession of Remonstrants, as follows:

They (The Remonstrants) do not regard original sin as sin properly so-called, nor as an evil which as a penalty, in the strict sense of that word, passes over from Adam upon his posterity, but as an evil, infirmity, or vice, or whatever name it may be designated by, which is propagated from Adam, deprived of original righteousness, to his posterity.

​

 

[theseed]

Are we guilty at conception? at birth? at the age age of reason

We are guilty at birth, and the "age of reason" or "age of accountibility" points to the fact that many Baptists believe so.

If we are held accountable for Adam's transgression how and when is that guilt taken away?

Through the atonement of Christ.

How is your position different from the RC position?

The RCC does not believe that we are totally corrupt, or depraved as one member quoted in this thread. I do.

That means that God has to regenerate someone before they can fellowship and have faith in him.

 

[BronxBriar]

We are guilty at birth, and the "age of reason" or "age of accountibility" points to the fact that many Baptists believe so.

So we do not baptise infants and children, who are guilty at birth as you say, because if they die they are protected by God's good mercy or election?

 

[theseed]

So we do not baptise infants and children, who are guilty at birth as you say, because if they die they are protected by God's good mercy or election?

Yes, I believe so. I believe that those who die young, as children are elect. Death in childhood indicates election. You can read my argument in the link below.

http://www.christianforums.com/t100939

 

[CrystalBrooke]

eventhought children are born with sin, doesnt mean that they are aware of it, nor are they aware that if they were to die that they would go to hell...they dont even know how to comprehend death...do you honestly think that God would send them to hell for that?!?

 

[BjBarnett]

Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
All are precious in His sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

doesnt anyone remember the song? lol

(sorry mods i know im not baptist but i figured that little song might ease tention and it does sorta apply here )

 

[SumTinWong]

Great song!

 

[theseed]

Nope, read the OP in the link I posted. There are several verses that indicate that they do.

So you, obiviously did not take the time to read what I posted in the link.

 

[theseed]

Yes, I remember it.

They have chaned the words to be more politically correct.

Instead of "red, yellow, black, and white/ all are precious in his sight"

It now says, "every color and every race/all are covered by his grace"

Or something like that.

 

[BronxBriar]

i figured that little song might ease tention and it does sorta apply here )

Tension? What tension?

 

[BjBarnett]

Tension? What tension?

haha well it made a lot more sense when before a couple of the posts got deleted and change hehe.

 

[BronxBriar]

haha well it made a lot more sense when before a couple of the posts got deleted and change hehe.

Ya mean I missed the good stuff???? RATS!

 

[CrystalBrooke]

Tension? What tension?

someone said something in a rude tone was all...it got deleted

 

[theseed]

I've not noticed any posts that have been removed.

 

[BjBarnett]

I've not noticed any posts that have been removed.

cause the mods are smooth like that.. haha ok im going back to observing the thread now.

*goes back into the shadows*

 

[GreenEyedLady]

We are born into sin and so children are sinful. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Children will go to heaven!

This is from an old post of mine. The bible may not state that babies get instant heaven, however, the bible is clear that children are innocent!!!

Jeremiah 1:4 ¶Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God has and does sactify children in the womb.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
If babies who are not baptized go to hell, or purgatory, then every single miscarriage,abortion, and still birth also goes to hell.
God knows us in our mothers womb!
He also knows what will happen to us and what our purpous is, He is all knowing!

Ezekiel 16:4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6 ¶And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

Here the Lord describes how He picked up the Israelites as if they were an infant abandon in a field.
God conciders all babies HIS CHILDREN!
Ezekiel 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

God refers to children as innocent ones. (these are babies that were sacrficed to Baal the pagan god...Jer 2:34)
Jeremiah 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

Children are also NOT held guilty of the sins of thier parents regardless of what religious backround they have.
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
(This is wicked King Jeroboam's son)
1 Kings 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.


Those who say that babies are accountable for the original sin...Look....

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.


Some might think that the above scripture is just an anology however, anolgies only workif it is rooted in truth. If Children are not readily and fully recieved into the kingsdom of heaven, then analogy to spiritaul conversation would be poor. IT is a great analogy, children are readly accepted in to heaven, and because of that, we are wise to become like little children so that we also are accepted. One more thing, I cannot find one place which Jesus lays his hands on the cursed, the damned, or the non-believers. But he does lay his hands and blesses the children.....because they are Gods children!
I agree that children are born with a sinful nature, that is biblical truth.
The fact that they die, shows that they have a sinful nature, otherwise they would live right?
So one would have to say that children get instant heaven not because they are sinless, but because God is gracious as his has been in the past.
Baptism does not save anyone God's grace does! That is biblical truth.
If ones says that baptism saves, then its an act of "works" (the work of baptism) not grace. There would be no credit to the grace of God with this view of thinkning. This also means that if you think this NOT one single baby every aborted or miscarried is in heaven with the Lord.

This is getting pretty long, so I will end it even though i have so much more to say. The bottom line is that God loves ALL the little children, and calls them innocent. Not one place in the bible does is say that we are damned from or ever threatened merely for the guilt inherited from Adam. Instead, Scripture always states willful acts of sin and rebellion as the reason to why eternal death will occur. Every single time it connects works of unrighousness( willful sin) with hell. What baby, born or unborn willfully sins? None! They ALL get instant heaven!

 

[Frankie]

So we do not baptise infants and children, who are guilty at birth as you say, because if they die they are protected by God's good mercy or election?

Jesus himself called little children "the kingdom of heaven", I have no doubt that the Grace of Jesus covers the sin of little children and that if they die, they go to heaven.

Frankie

 

[Asar'el]

This is from an old post of mine. The bible may not state that babies get instant heaven, however, the bible is clear that children are innocent!!!
...

The passages you show, you will note, are about specific people God has chosen for a task from childhood, or before they were born, or conceived; and noone doubts God can do this; but to expand that to encompass all children is doing violence to the word.

Those who say that babies are accountable for the original sin...Look....

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Look yourself also: as I pointed out in another thread, the text says your little ones... and your children which in that day had no knowledge... so children that DID have knowledge of good and evil, and therefore sinned, were also permitted to enter...

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Of such ... quite different from, say,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Some might think that the above scripture is just an anology however, anolgies only workif it is rooted in truth. If Children are not readily and fully recieved into the kingsdom of heaven, then analogy to spiritaul conversation would be poor. IT is a great analogy, children are readly accepted in to heaven, and because of that, we are wise to become like little children so that we also are accepted.

The believing attitude of little children is what is referred to in the verses; that is why it is a GREAT analogy.

One more thing, I cannot find one place which Jesus lays his hands on the cursed, the damned, or the non-believers. But he does lay his hands and blesses the children.....because they are Gods children!
I agree that children are born with a sinful nature, that is biblical truth.
The fact that they die, shows that they have a sinful nature, otherwise they would live right?
So one would have to say that children get instant heaven not because they are sinless, but because God is gracious as his has been in the past.
Baptism does not save anyone God's grace does! That is biblical truth.
If ones says that baptism saves, then its an act of "works" (the work of baptism) not grace. There would be no credit to the grace of God with this view of thinkning. This also means that if you think this NOT one single baby every aborted or miscarried is in heaven with the Lord.
This is getting pretty long, so I will end it even though i have so much more to say. The bottom line is that God loves ALL the little children, and calls them innocent. Not one place in the bible does is say that we are damned from or ever threatened merely for the guilt inherited from Adam. Instead, Scripture always states willful acts of sin and rebellion as the reason to why eternal death will occur. Every single time it connects works of unrighousness( willful sin) with hell. What baby, born or unborn willfully sins? None! They ALL get instant heaven!

The text where I believe this issue is clearly settled, is the latter part of 1 Corinthians 7:14

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

The scripture declares the children of (even!) one elect parent holy; otherwise ... unclean.