Original Sin

[BjBarnett]

hello my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!

I just got back from a Baptist service with my girlfriend and the preacher preached on original sin. My question is do all baptist believe in original sin or is it a preference thing? thanks in advanced

 

[JM]

Original sin must be taught, when Biblical doctrine becomes preference then that Church is serving the world not Christ.

 

[TexasCatholic]

I think you need to talk definition here. The words "Original Sin" are not in the bible. The concept is. Man fell into sinfulness in the Garden of Eden when Eve and Adam took of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was the first sin, thus 'opening the door' for temptation and sin for all mankind from that point on, and of course, expelling mankind from the perfect Garden God had created.

Now, do Baptists believe that when we are born we are somehow "tainted" by sin, because of Adam and Eve?

This Baptist does not believe that. We are tempted to sin. We are imperfect humans, and we ALL have and WILL continue to succumb to temptations now and then. Our challenge is to look to the strength provided by God through Jesus Christ to resist temptation....

However, I do NOT buy into the Catholic notion that we're born somehow "corrupt" and thus their rationale for infant baptism. Sin is a choice we make, not an inheritance.

What we've inherited is the weakness to commit sin, NOT the sin itself. Thus, a baby, an innocent who makes NO choices, cannot have sin. He/she has the weakness, but hasn't matured enough to be able to make a choice to sin.

Is this "Baptist theology"? Heck if I know. It's my theology.

-James

 

[OracleX]

[bible]Romans 5:12-21[/bible]

I believe that Romans states our situation quiet well.

I believe that we are born in to a sinful world. I believe that we have free will. I believe that the unborn, the aborted, and babies will go to heaven. Children from very young agaes though learn to sin. They learn lie, be violent, throw temper tantrums and so much more. They also then have the oppertunity to start understanding what sin is, and more importantly start understanding Jesus Christ and what He did for sinners.

I believe that there was only one person who lived on this earth from child to adult death and that was Jesus Christ. All others have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and requires the free gift from God to be saved.

 

[BronxBriar]

I believe we suffer the effects of the so-called original sin, i.e. we sin and live in a sinful and flawed world. I'm in agreement with Romans 5 and OracleX's understanding. We do not however inherit the imputed guilt which some churches believe is washed away through infant baptism.

 

[OracleX]

Good point BB. We are all responsible for our own sin. I do not carry the guilt of my fathers sins. I do not need forgiveness (healing yes) for his sin.

 

[TexasCatholic]

Good point BB. We are all responsible for our own sin. I do not carry the guilt of my fathers sins. I do not need forgiveness (healing yes) for his sin.

Isn't that what I said?

Sin is a choice we make, not an inheritance.

-James

 

[theseed]

What we've inherited is the weakness to commit sin, NOT the sin itself.

That's false, See Romans 5:12-21, as posted below. God imputes the Sin of Adam upon the whole human race.

 

[BronxBriar]

That's false, See Romans 5:12-21, as posted below. God imputes the Sin of Adam upon the whole human race.

The sin and the consequences are imputed, just not the guilt. Even the eastern orthodox christians hold to this. Otherwise we would need infant baptism to wipe away the guilt. If we died with the guilt we would be hell bound....but we do not hold to imputed 'guilt' ... Adam was guilty of his sin..I am guilty of mine.

 

[BronxBriar]

Isn't that what I said?

[/font]

-James

Yes you did brother. We are on the same page.
(I must be better with my footnoting).

 

[theseed]

The sin and the consequences are imputed, just not the guilt. Even the eastern orthodox christians hold to this. Otherwise we would need infant baptism to wipe away the guilt. If we died with the guilt we would be hell bound....but we do not hold to imputed 'guilt' ... Adam was guilty of his sin..I am guilty of mine.

Sin always carries guilt. We are hellbound unless we recieve the imputed rightousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)

I find it odd that you would say that we would need infant baptism--as if Christ does nto pay for past sins, but only future ones

 

[TexasCatholic]

That's false, See Romans 5:12-21, as posted below. God imputes the Sin of Adam upon the whole human race.

I read the passage before my first post. My belief stands.

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the gift of eternal life. The only way they could destroy that was to break the ONE AND ONLY LAW that God had given them. Adam did break this law, through succumbing to the only temptation for the ONLY possible sin he could have committed!

As a result, "death" entered the world "through sin" (Romans 5:12). Before this, eternal life was already theirs. After sin, eternal life was no longer defacto guarantee for all humanity. Death entered the world.

Indeed, Paul does say "...death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam..." Clearly those before the time of Jesus faced condemnation due to the sin of Adam, and had no guarnatee of eternal life.

However, it does NOT say that the sin of Adam is put on our backs. The RESULT of the sin of Adam is put on our backs -- death! Before Adam there was no death. After Adam, there is death. After Jesus' sacrifice, we can receive the gift of eternal life, saving us from death, by believing in him and turning our lives over to him and accepting the gift of his sacrifice.

The "original sin" is what brought DEATH into the world. The sin itself is not passed along through generations. The RESULT of the sin is.

So, I deny the "Original Sin" concept as Catholic/Eastern Orthodox believe it. They would have it that we inherit the actual sin -- the actual ACT -- of Adam. When in fact, Scripture does not say this. We inherit the sin's IMPACT, RESULTS, CONSEQUENCES. Not the sin itself.

If a baby dies, he/she has NOT taken on Adam's sin of eating the fruit. At that point in a human life, no sin has entered that infant's soul. I rebuke the very idea. However, obviously death is possible -- death, the RESULT of Adam's sin, can enter... But, I believe Scripture is also clear to indicate that God's infinitely merciful nature would have that baby's soul to come be with him, for it is a soul that was yet unable to make any choices, and whose innocence belongs in heaven with our Heavenly Father.

-James

 

[BronxBriar]

Sin always carries guilt. We are hellbound unless we recieve the imputed rightousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)

I find it odd that you would say that we would need infant baptism--as if Christ does nto pay for past sins, but only future ones

I agree with everything you say above.

Where we are miscommunicating is here I believe: The church I came from taught the following and it is this I reject:

The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us (loc. cit., can. ii). If he has lost it for us we were to have received it from him at our birth with the other prerogatives of our race. Therefore the absence of sanctifying grace in a child is a real privation, it is the want of something that should have been in him according to the Divine plan.

and

Consequently the privation of this grace, even without any other act, would be a stain, a moral deformity, a turning away from God, aversio a Deo, and this character is not found in any other effect of the fault of Adam. This privation, therefore, is the hereditary stain.

You would agree that these are not Baptist positions?

We inherit the consequences of ADAM'S sin but we do not inherit ADAM'S GUILT. The guilt we incur is our own, but that flows solely as a consequence of Adam's sin: The Original Sin. Would my baptist brothers and sisters out there agree?

 

[TexasCatholic]

I forgot a Scriptural reference I wanted to refer to...

"So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." Matthew 18:14 (NASB)

I realize that this idea is secondary, but I think people really do confuse the idea of Original Sin to include the actual record of Adam's sin rather than the consequences that the sin brought upon us. Once we reach the age of accountability, it is our personal sin that condemns us. It is from Adam's sin that we receive our sinful nature and our inherited condemnation. We do not inherit an act or "sin" that he committed.

I hope I'm making sense in explaining my point of view. Obviously, as Baptists, we aren't limited to the view of any magesterium. Only the Word of God is truth.

-James

 

[BronxBriar]

I forgot a Scriptural reference I wanted to refer to...

"So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." Matthew 18:14 (NASB)

I realize that this idea is secondary, but I think people really do confuse the idea of Original Sin to include the actual record of Adam's sin rather than the consequences that the sin brought upon us. Once we reach the age of accountability, it is our personal sin that condemns us. It is from Adam's sin that we receive our sinful nature and our inherited condemnation. We do not inherit an act or "sin" that he committed.

I hope I'm making sense in explaining my point of view. Obviously, as Baptists, we aren't limited to the view of any magesterium. Only the Word of God is truth.

-James

Perfectly said! Thanks for jumping in.

 

[TexasCatholic]

We inherit the consequences of ADAM'S sin but we do not inherit ADAM'S GUILT. The guilt we incur is our own, but that flows solely as a consequence of Adam's sin: The Original Sin. Would my baptist brothers and sisters out there agree?

If I understand you correctly, then yes, I do. Adam's guilt opened the door for us to "earn" our own guilt through our own sin, not Adam's. I think use of the term "guilt" here is perhaps confusing, because we have two basic meanings of that word. "guilt" as a feeling (resulting from doing something wrong) and guilt as a VERDICT. I assume you mean it as a verdict for the sin we have committed that we must ourselves confess, else pay the consequences for.

-James

 

[BronxBriar]

If I understand you correctly, then yes, I do. Adam's guilt opened the door for us to "earn" our own guilt through our own sin, not Adam's. I think use of the term "guilt" here is perhaps confusing, because we have two basic meanings of that word. "guilt" as a feeling (resulting from doing something wrong) and guilt as a VERDICT. I assume you mean it as a verdict for the sin we have committed that we must ourselves confess, else pay the consequences for.

-James

A meeting of the minds is a wonderful thing!

 

[BjBarnett]

thanks for all the replys

 

[theseed]

The sin and the consequences are imputed, just not the guilt. Even the eastern orthodox christians hold to this. Otherwise we would need infant baptism to wipe away the guilt. If we died with the guilt we would be hell bound....but we do not hold to imputed 'guilt' ... Adam was guilty of his sin..I am guilty of mine

Actually, it does. Say imputed guilt. And your logic about infant baptism does not follow. You assume that Christ atonement is insufficent for sin.

Romans 15:18
So then as through (36) one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (37) act of righteousness there resulted (38) justification of life to all men.

The "original sin" is what brought DEATH into the world. The sin itself is not passed along through generations. The RESULT of the sin is.

The result is condemnation (Romans 5:18). Therefore, we are guilty by default.

o, I deny the "Original Sin" concept as Catholic/Eastern Orthodox believe it. They would have it that we inherit the actual sin -- the actual ACT -- of Adam. When in fact, Scripture does not say this. We inherit the sin's IMPACT, RESULTS, CONSEQUENCES. Not the sin itself.

Then you deny what is clearly biblical (Rom. 5:18).

If a baby dies, he/she has NOT taken on Adam's sin of eating the fruit. At that point in a human life, no sin has entered that infant's soul.

This contrary to The Bible.

I rebuke the very idea.

Then you rebuke The Bible.

But, I believe Scripture is also clear to indicate that God's infinitely merciful nature would have that baby's soul to come be with him, for it is a soul that was yet unable to make any choices, and whose innocence belongs in heaven with our Heavenly Father.

This is a contradictory statement, because if God the father is merciful on the baby, then the baby was guilty of sin. Rom. 5.18 clearly states that we are condemned because of Adam's sin. "Condemnation entered the whole human race" (Romans 5:18)

 

[theseed]

You would agree that these are not Baptist positions?

I'm not concerned with whether they are Baptists, but whether they are biblical. Also, Ryrie (baptist theologion) supports imputed sin as the Scriptures state (Rom. 5.18). We don't recieve just the consequences, but condemnation which comes from guilt which came from one man