Original Sin

[Iollain]

Ahh free will.

Satan was already in the world, Adam never had a chance, and God knew that.

He may not have had a chance, but he still had a choice

 

[KJVisTruth]

I wish the Bible had more to say about the Tree, so I think that was more of a spiritual tree than of a physical tree. But Adam and Eve did not see it that way. Because they were not aware of evil, they did not know any better. I think... lol

 

[KJVisTruth]

I humbly disagree.

Sorry.. quick quote button didnt work. This is for Illoin's post, Adam having a choice.

 

[Iollain]

....but the Bible says Eve was fooled, Adam was not, he knew for sure it was wrong and against what God said?

 

[ScottBot]

[bible]genesis 3:2[/bible]

"The tree was in the midst of the Garden", so I would conclude that it was.

 

[Iollain]

but yeah, he must have been quite an innocent creature before that , that we cannot imagine

 

[ScottBot]

Just because God knew what choice Adam would make before he made it does not negate Adam's freedom. God did not compell Adam's choice, He merely knew it was going to happen.

 

[ScottBot]

This I agree with.

 

[KJVisTruth]

....but the Bible says Eve was fooled, Adam was not, he knew for sure it was wrong and against what God said?

If Eve's eyes were opened before Adam's did, he would have been skeptical and perhaps obeyed God. But that did not happen. Adam saw that nothing has changed when Eve took a bite, so he did. And THEN both of their eyes were opened. Gen. 3:7

 

[Iollain]

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.


1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


He was not deceived by the serpent, but was he deceived, or did he know full well God said no?

 

[KJVisTruth]

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.


1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


He was not deceived by the serpent, but was he deceived, or did he know full well God said no?

I think those verses meant to say Adam did not actively disobey. He understood that they werent allowed to eat that fruit; in his innocence, he probably had no comprehension of consequences, and he saw that nothing changed when Eve took a bite... still no understanding of consequences.

In context with 1Tim. 2, the chapter, Paul spoke about women learning in silence, not to usurp authority over the man. Hes telling the women not to interfere with their men, in their relationship with God, which Eve has done to Adam.

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay, then follow me here...if Adam's nature was now changed=the fallen nature, then he was no longer a "son of God", right? So this must be why God calls the men in the Bible "son of man"-if Adam = man. Because they're no longer sons of God. They're something Adam put out. This even ties in to the Song of Moses when He says, "to their shame they are no longer my children."

This would also make sense for CS Lewis to call the children in Narnia "Son of Adam". But anyway...

So if Adam was corrupted, then all his children were corrupted. So our flesh is sinful at birth.

Some people believe in a bodily resurrection. But if the above is true, it's impossible; Jesus wasn't an acceptable sacrifice. Spiritually, he would have been, but being a son of adam (even, "the second adam"), he would have been just corrupted flesh-wise as the rest of us. Secondly, this would have to mean he died spiritually(only his spirit would have been an unblemished sacrifice), which my pastor says isn't true but which this seems to imply. Otherwise, the spirit would have to be able to atone for the flesh, and vice versa.

...

WE lost grace but not our dignity as human beings made by god.

No we are not his children until we are born again but we are always, always his creation and he never stops loving any one of us. We lost grace and communion with God but we NEVER lost our dignity as his creation.

He created human beings in His image and likeness and we will have always have dignity as such.

We were made for him and in his image. This is what makes us so distinct form any other thing He made. This is what gives us our dignity.

 

[Benedicta00]

Conceived in sin i would imagine means being conceived in the human race?

yes.

 

[Benedicta00]

Did they die spiritually, is knowing good and evil dying spiritually, or was it they die because the tree of life was not allowed to them?

Is it that we cannot handle knowing good and evil and staying good?

We die meaning we will go to hell if not saved.

We know evil along with good and we are disordered now. Our passions lack balance so that makes choosing the good over evil hard.

Like Paul said, our nature is now a matter of us doing the evil we don't want and not doing the good we do want to do.

It's only in the area of doing the moral good we are irrational and have trouble. With out grace, it difficult to choose good over evil.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The story implies that Eve convinced Adam to eat of the fruit. The word 'gave' (she gave also to her husband...) can mean to put upon, or, to insist. This is supported by the fact that God cursed Adam for "hearkening to the voice of his wife". Eve didn't just hand the fruit to Adam. There was some conversation there.

 

[Iollain]

I think those verses meant to say Adam did not actively disobey. He understood that they werent allowed to eat that fruit; in his innocence, he probably had no comprehension of consequences, and he saw that nothing changed when Eve took a bite... still no understanding of consequences.

In context with 1Tim. 2, the chapter, Paul spoke about women learning in silence, not to usurp authority over the man. Hes telling the women not to interfere with their men, in their relationship with God, which Eve has done to Adam.

hmmm...yes i suppose he may not have understood this death, cause death was not in existence at this point.......they must have been innocent like a child, i mean little ones who do not care a bit if they are naked or who sees them

 

[KJVisTruth]

hmmm...yes i suppose he may not have understood this death, cause death was not in existence at this point.......they must have been innocent like a child, i mean little ones who do not care a bit if they are naked or who sees them

Yeah, those are my thoughts as well.

 

[Iollain]

In context with 1Tim. 2, the chapter, Paul spoke about women learning in silence, not to usurp authority over the man. Hes telling the women not to interfere with their men, in their relationship with God, which Eve has done to Adam.

good insite on that verse

 

[Iollain]

We die meaning we will go to hell if not saved.

We know evil along with good and we are disordered now. Our passions lack balance so that makes choosing the good over evil hard.

Like Paul said, our nature is now a matter of us doing the evil we don't want and not doing the good we do want to do.

It's only in the area of doing the moral good we are irrational and have trouble. With out grace, it difficult to choose good over evil.

 

[Iollain]

Yeah, those are my thoughts as well.

But still.....he did choose to disobey God