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Original Sin

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katallasso

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Today I was in a christian chat room and the subject of original sin came up. Now I thought this was one all christians agreed on, but it seems not so. There were fundies and orthodox alike who proclaimed the we are born sinless but soon thereafter fall prey to the devils wiles. One used this scripture to substantiate his opinion.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

They are saying that death was in the earth because of Adams sin but it is because all men sin that death passed upon all. Hmmm, don't know if I get this.

Can anyone enlighten me on the train of thought?
 

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katallasso said:
They are saying that death was in the earth because of Adams sin but it is because all men sin that death passed upon all. Hmmm, don't know if I get this.
I don't get it either. They are saying that death is in the world because of Adam and because of one's own sin.

I got this at Bible.org

"Death spread to all people because [eph hO] all sinned." The translation of the phrase ἐφ᾿ ᾧ has been heavily debated. Only a few of the major options can be mentioned here: (1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, “death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned.” (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning “death spread to all people with the result that all sinned.” (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: “death spread to all people because all sinned.”

If all have sinned, then there's a sin nature that we get from Adam. That's what makes sin and death inevitable and universal, and that's why Paul can confidently say that all have sinned.
 
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wizanda

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Now according to Paul all are sinners and all are under sin, the bible and Yeshua shows this is incorrect.

Quote:

Rom 3:9-10 What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin, (10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;

Ok to start with this quote is misquoted and fulfils that of a fake prophet, using others words. Paul was brought up presumably not with the Hebrew language, else he should have known that righteous means:

Right = right thinking and action, wise = to consider things carefully and as god does from all angles, ness=us to always consider others in decisions.

This I read in a Hebrew definitions book, I don’t recall which, yet this is a true sense of what it means. So you can check your self, this is another definition from the Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew definitions:

Quote:

1) Just, lawful, righteous
1a) just, righteous (in government)
1b) just, right (in one’s cause)
1c) just, righteous (in conduct and character)
1d) righteous (as justified and vindicated by God)
1e) right, correct, lawful

No where in Hebrew definitions does it mean, all are sinners, just they are not as stated above. Not as it means in modern English definition as taken from the Encarta dictionary:

Quote:

1. Strictly observant of morality: always behaving according to a religious or moral code
2. Justifiable: considered to be correct or justifiable

Also if we look where Paul supposedly quoted this from, we will see that it is actually saying the opposite.

Quote:

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works, there is none who does good.

So if this is where he took it from, as stated by my NKJV bible, this in actual fact is saying Paul is a fool, for saying such a thing. He is using it to say that we all need Yeshua to covers us from sin, yet Yeshua said:

Quote:

Luke 5:32 I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.

This is repeated in Mathew and Mark as well, so if Christ is saying there is righteous people, what right does Paul have to say there is none righteous?
So where did Paul get the idea from that all are sinners

Quote:

Rom 5:12-21 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned: (13) for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come; (15) but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Yeshua Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification. (17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Yeshua Christ.) (18) Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous. (20) But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, (21) so that as sin has reigned to death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life by Yeshua Christ our Lord.

Now I am aware that Paul's words are confusing and he talks like a snake winding in the sand or as Daniel put it pompous. Yet what he is trying to say is that “sin has been passed down from Adam and therefore we are all sinners for Adams mistake. So God sent Yeshua to die for us as a sacrifice and that Yeshua ended the law, so making us free of sin, as there is no law to judge us by.”
Why this is so incorrect, is that Yeshua didn’t end the law, in fact he added to it and that sin is not passed down, as told by Ezekiel.

Quote:

Eze 18:4-22 Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die. (5) But a man that is just and does what is just and right, (6) and has not eaten on the mountains, nor has lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor has defiled his neighbor's wife, nor has come near a menstruating woman, (7) and has not ill-treated any man, but has given the debtor's pledge back to him, has robbed none by violence, has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the naked with a garment; (8) he has not given out on usury, nor has taken any increase, he has withdrawn his hand from iniquity, has done judgment between man and man, (9) has walked in My statutes, and has kept My judgments to deal truly, he is righteous, he shall surely live, says the Lord Jehovah. (10) And if he fathers a son who is violent, who sheds blood, and who does to a brother any of these; (11) even if he does do not any of these himself, but his son has, but has even eaten on the mountains, and has defiled his neighbor's wife; (12) has ill-treated the poor and needy; thieving, he stole; has not given back the pledge; and has lifted up his eyes to the idols; has committed abomination; (13) has loaned on usury; and has taken increase; shall he then live? He shall not live! He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be on him. (14) And, lo, if he fathers a son who sees all his father's sins which he has done, and fears, and does not do like him; (15) who has not eaten on the mountains; nor has lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; has not defiled his neighbor's wife; (16) nor has ill-treated any man; has not withheld the pledge; nor has robbed by violence; but has given his bread to the hungry; and has covered the naked with clothes; (17) has withdrawn his hand from the poor; has not received usury nor increase; has done My judgments; has walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live. (18) His father, because he extorted, robbed his brother by robbery, and did what is not good among his people; lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. (19) Yet you say, Why? Does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done justice and right, has kept all My statutes, and has done them, he shall surely live. (20) The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him. (21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins which he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do justice and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. (22) All his transgressions that he has done, they shall not be mentioned to him; in his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

A shortened version of this is, “that sin is not passed from father to son. If one sins the other maybe of the same blood, yet sin is determined by the actions of the person not that it is hereditary”, as Paul makes us believe. So there fore sin wasn’t passed down from Adam and in fact we can not fulfill what Christ asked us to do whilst believing this.

Quote:

Mat 5:48 therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

If you tell someone they are sinner, they find it harder to aim to be perfect. In fact they can’t be, as there will always be that doubt, they are a sinner. This whole point defeats the objective of what Yeshua said and why this is part of the Anti-Christ.
 
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stumpjumper

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Original sin is not the same as actual sin.

Original sin is our propensity to sin because of freedom and our estrangement from God. The Hebrew word for knowledge is "yada" and it is an all-encompassing verb that means to reach for universal knowledge and create our own truths. It is our ability to define for ourselves what is right and wrong and create our own truths.

From a Christian POV, we cannot judge or create truth as the truth judges us...
 
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KCDAD

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Original sin... we were created in sin... that is , we were made mortal, physical beings. We were created apart from God. That is your original sin... separation from God. Sin is not something you do... it is the state of being separated from God. The story of Adam walking with God is alluding to before we were physical creatures we communed with God, surely the Jewish storytellers weren't implying that the great all powerful creator of the universe was literally walking around on the Earth one day. Being thrown out of the garden is alluding to being born in to the world and out of the presence of God.
 
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wizanda

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Paul doesn't know what he is talking about!!

Basically

Tree of Life = I saw when I died, and the two flashing swords which many near death experiences have seen.

Eden = Heaven

Ezekiel 18 = Sin isn't passed down!!!!!!!!!

Numbers 6 = Law of the Nazarites (separating your self to God, and giving up wine, meat and anything unclean also not cut your hair. If everyone is allowed to separate them self to God and give up these things and be a clean vessel, then following Paul and doing the complete opposite to the Law of the Torah, then I guess yes, Paul is right you are all sinners as he convinced you to, not to follow Christ and to follow him and in doing so breaking most of the commandments and laws.

Genesis = God Saw that the world was Good!! We get an EGO from rotten fruit that is ok for a snake, yet gets us drunk and we worry about our EGO. There was no devil or Satan mentioned in the beginning, in fact it doesn’t really appear until Job, at which point God asks Satan where you came from and he states walking the earth. Who walks the Earth Man and who has an EGO, which still to this day causes destruction?
Also do you agree with the ‘fool’ and say there is no God?

Hab 2:2-6 And Jehovah answered me and said, Write the vision, and make it plain on the tablets, that he who reads it may run. (3) For the vision is still for an appointed time, but it speaks to the end, and it does not lie. Though it lingers, wait for it; because it will surely come. It will not tarry. (4) Behold, the soul of him is lifted up, and is not upright; but the just shall live by his faith. (5) And also wine indeed betrays a proud man, and he is not content. He widens his soul like Sheol, and he is like death, and is not satisfied, but gathers all nations to himself, and heaps to himself all the peoples. (6) Shall not all these lift up a parable against him, and a mocking riddle to him, and say, Woe to him who increases what is not his! Until when, then, shall he load the pledges on himself?

Just a quick explanation as I need to write this as full article, Christ said the son of man will gather the nations, Christ comes on a cloud. This continues to say woe to him who builds a city on blood shed, so who is this meaning. The Pharisees told you Christ is the one coming, the Bible tells you first a son of man comes with the new name of Christ to fix the errors and inform the people.
Christ didn’t call you to be Christians and teach about him, he called people to be under God and repent to God. Christ teaches you to have faith in God, so Pharisees teaching you to have faith in Christ is what this means. It is not directed at Christ as I have been over his teachings and I find nothing wrong, I was sent to test this.
What I do find wrong though is the books of John, Paul and Simon peter (stone).

Yet when Christ did tell you all not to follow them, why his word is a measure, it is quite clear as to follow them is to show that you don’t follow Christ’s words.

So if a Child is the way of heaven according to Christ and many, and he says aim to be perfect as God is perfect?
How can you do this, if the moment you are born you are a sinner? You are not!!
It Paul’s/Pharisee scare tactics!
I was once told on these same lines, “I didn’t have to teach my child to sin, and they did it naturally. After them seeing me get a coca cola and me telling them not to, they helped them self’s and therefore they are natural sinners.”
Misguided people the child copies from your actions.
Eve copied the Snake and then lied to cover her tracks as child does and said it told her to. (Have you ever heard a SNAKE talk?)

Eze 33:12-15 Therefore, son of man, say to the sons of your people: The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression. As for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it in the day he turns from his wickedness. Nor shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sins. (13) When I shall say to the righteous that he shall surely live; if he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it. (14) Again, when I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; if he turns from his sin and does justice and right; (15) if the wicked gives back the pledge, gives again what he had robbed, walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, then he shall surely live; he shall not die.


I love how this is a snare or door, if Christ said he came to call the sinners to repentance and not the righteous, does this mean you disagree with him personally and follow Paul instead?
 
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stumpjumper

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wizanda said:
Paul doesn't know what he is talking about!!
.

So if a Child is the way of heaven according to Christ and many, and he says aim to be perfect as God is perfect?
How can you do this, if the moment you are born you are a sinner? You are not!!

I don't see that you really understand what original sin is meant to denote. It is not actual sin and never has been claimed to be actual sin. It is a propensity to commit sin and align our will with ourselves instead of God because of the freedom allowed in creation and because of the ability to make free moral acts.

Adam is a common and proper noun in Hebrew and it is the commonality of the noun Adam (meaning mankind) that we all fall into sin as it is not an inherited characteristic it is a common aspect of humanity because of our estrangement from God. Jesus also said "none but God is good", btw.

We are to become like little children and let go of those things which keep us from God (cutting off a part of ourselves analogy) because to enter into eternal life we must surrender our will to God's will (kenosis).
 
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Cleany

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it is not necessarily true that sin is a real force, rather a word used to describe the imperfection of humans that causes us pain.

the gospel is not necessarily about solving the "problem of sin", perhaps it is about god enabling us to see past and rise above our problems by helping others with the power of god.
 
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wizanda

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Well if Satan means the accuser, and the Ego that dwell within us accuses us, and is the voice that has existed since the fall within us.
It is the Ego (Satan) that would say to Christ “don’t worry about dying and fulfilling what is meant of you! Being who you are and with the power you have, seen you have got through out you life, you could be king of the world”.
Instead of fulfilling the potter field and cutting off of the sects as in Zechariah and Judas/Jewish sects. Which he knew would happen as he had the spirit of prophecy as we are told.

So anyway I am going off track what I am basically trying to say is where since the fall has sin existed? In Ego!
Also when I died this is what hell is Ego everyone down there doesn’t realise that in there life everything is counted and by even how they speak the judge them self’s. As when you die you see your life flash before your eyes, yet not as you imagine, yet you see the ramifications of every action.
So if you don’t say it right, and a friend, tells a friend what you said and they trip up, it’s your fault (well that is the way I saw it anyway). Many of the people stuck in hell, are there blaming others and I don’t think I heard many who repented. They would rather keep their EGO.

So if that is hell EGO and the sins are greed = EGO, lust = EGO gluttony = EGO, do you see the picture?

If we want to banish demons, it is the Ego that is the Demon in people. So through loving all and bring people together at all cost this is heaven and what I shouted from Sheol, “was I know Oneness” and that is what heaven really is, one us. Free of all desires understanding unconditional love, basically understand and keeping all the commandments including don’t desire.

What on earth is happening to our countries, I have recently got back to England after a year in Spain and I find almost a disease of purchasing, coming over me for fun?
What?
Why?
How?
Aren’t we meant to be the Christian countries free of greed and desires; oops we don’t follow Christ teaching, I forgot!
 
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stumpjumper

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elman

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katallasso said:
Today I was in a christian chat room and the subject of original sin came up. Now I thought this was one all christians agreed on, but it seems not so. There were fundies and orthodox alike who proclaimed the we are born sinless but soon thereafter fall prey to the devils wiles. One used this scripture to substantiate his opinion.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

They are saying that death was in the earth because of Adams sin but it is because all men sin that death passed upon all. Hmmm, don't know if I get this.

Can anyone enlighten me on the train of thought?
Ezekiel 18. My soul does not die because of my father's sin or Adam's sin. My soul only dies because of my sin. Original sin is a man made idea. We are each like Adam born spiritually and physically alive. If we live long enough we will be unloving which is sin and that will kill us spiritually. If we turn from being unloving to being loving we can throught the grace and forgiveness of God spiritually live again.
 
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elman

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KCDAD said:
Original sin... we were created in sin... that is , we were made mortal, physical beings. We were created apart from God. That is your original sin... separation from God. Sin is not something you do... it is the state of being separated from God. The story of Adam walking with God is alluding to before we were physical creatures we communed with God, surely the Jewish storytellers weren't implying that the great all powerful creator of the universe was literally walking around on the Earth one day. Being thrown out of the garden is alluding to being born in to the world and out of the presence of God.
I disagree. Sin is something you do i.e. be unloving to others. Separation from God who is a spirit which is the same as spiritual death is the consequences of sin. Paul also taught the wages or consequences of sin is death. We are all mortal so we all face physical death wheather we are loving or not. Therefore the consequeces of sin is not pjysical death, but spiritual death.
 
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