Original Sin

[nephilimiyr]

Excellent questions Grace! Thank you!

I say if this is the case then why did God need Jesus to go into a Virgin Body?

Well because the sacrifice that God planned for us to be once and for all had to be without spot, blemish, or wrinkle. On the day of atonement, the sacrifice that was offered up to God once a year for the sins of the nation Israel had to be the first born. With the Holy Spirit as the Father the woman would natually have to be a virgin. So therefore the sacrifice to be offered up had to be the first born and had to be without spot or wrinkle. If the woman was not a virgin then God could be accused of committing adultery? And therefore putting spot and wrinkle onto the child.

Why not just take any baby that would be born, like David, Solomon, Moses, Aron, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Isaac?

Because the baby, the sacrifice offered up once and for all, had to be God himself.
hebrews 9:16, In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it That therefore has to mean God himself had to be the sacrifice. he's the one who made the will!

Because no one born on earth is without sin... forgiven yes... no sin at all and unblemished before forgiveness - NONE...

Just my thoughts</FONT>

And very good thoughts at that!

 

[Iollain]

John the Baptist was the most holy man to live the Bible says, somewhere i believe

 

[Iollain]

Nope, says greater:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

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Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

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Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

 

[nephilimiyr]

To me the original sin was to become self-centered and not being God-centered! The fruit of self-centeredness was and remains all the lusts. In Adam remains lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, lust for knowledge and the desire to be equal with God. In the nature of Jesus Christ we can regain what was lost and that is being back with God (Father). Only dieing to self and born again can we regain what was lost. Anyway………………….all sin originates from the original sin of self-centeredness. Adam is sick with I-my-me-itis!

Thanks for your thoughts. It's however way past my bed time and I really must go. You say somethings I want to think about before I post....I hope you don't mind.

 

[GraceInHim]

on another note of this - why did Jesus say in order to go to the Kingdom of God, a person has to be Born Again?

 

[nephilimiyr]

actually the bible says we are sinful from birth so we just named that sin from birth its that simple

Sorry but I missed you. I'm asking for scriptural evidence and I'm not familiar with the passage you are reffering to, could you please state the Book, chapter, and verse?

 

[nephilimiyr]

on another note of this - why did Jesus say in order to go to the Kingdom of God, a person has to be Born Again?

Because we are spiritually dead and being born again is a spiritual birth. When we convert, when we accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour our spirits come alive. We are no longer seperated from God but are connected back to Him. This is being born again.

Sorry, I'm tired and need to get some zzzzzzzs

 

[MadHermit]

The discussion seems to keep returning to the term "original sin". As stated in the OP, that phrase is not found in scripture, so looking for a scripture to support the term would seem counter-productive.

A better focus might be sin nature or fallen nature vs. the act of committing sin. Do we today inherit a sin/fallen nature from our parents? Yes, scriptures have already been supplied to support this. Are we today held accountable for Adam's specific sin? I am not aware of anything in scripture to support this, so I would say No.

Are we therefore lost and in need of salvation? Yes. Why? Because as has been said, we are born spritiually dead, separated from God. It is by being born again that we are saved. As Jesus said John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, we are lost by nature, a nature we inherit from our parents, but we are not held accountable for Adam's specific sin.

 

[GraceInHim]

Because we are spiritually dead and being born again is a spiritual birth. When we convert, when we accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour our spirits come alive. We are no longer seperated from God but are connected back to Him. This is being born again.

Sorry, I'm tired and need to get some zzzzzzzs

leave one more about sin - then why do we need to convert in the first place? Remember the rich man who said to Jesus, he has obeyed God's commandments and what more did he have to do to receive the Kingdom? Jesus said sell all his belongings and give it to the poor...


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. II Corinthians 5:17

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10

 

[armothe]

Boy did this get buried quickly. If this was posted in the Harmartiology forum it would be the top post for at least a month!

Original sin plainly states that there was an original sin. That original sin was attributed to Adam. If there was not a first sin, then we wouldn't know what sin was, hence there would be no sin. But, Adam and Eve discovered sin by rejecting what God had commanded them to do. Their sin separated them from God's presence - a curse that would remain with mankind until the time of Christ when He would take the sin of the world upon His shoulders and restore the relationship which had been lost.

You see, sin is a learned behavior. We learn it from our parents, our friends, movies, television, books, teachers and society overall. Most important - sin is a concious act (of defiance). As James describes it desire gives way to lust which results in sinful action. Small children and infants are incapable of conciously acting in accordance of this model.

Inherited sin states that each and every one of us is born a sinner. There is no honest scriptural evidence for this belief. Why wasn't Jesus the Christ born a sinner?

Several passages in the Bible seem to indicate that small children are blameless and sinless:

Matthew 18:3, "And he said: 'I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.'"

Do sinners enter the kingdom of heaven? No! Christ was urging the people to repent of their sins so that when the work of Christ was complete they would appear sinles to God the father and be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Little children are sinless!

Matthew 19:14, "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.'"

Who does the kingdom of heaven belong to? Those who appear sinless to God.

And finally, even God does not consider infants and little children to be sinners:
Deuteronomy 1:35-40, "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him and to his sons I will give the land on which he has set foot, because he has followed the LORD fully.' The LORD was angry with me also on your account, saying, 'Not even you shall enter there. Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there; encourage him, for he will cause Israel to inherit 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. But as for you, turn around and set out for the wilderness by the way to the Red Sea.' "

Yes, little children and infants are naive in that they have no knowledge of good and evil - like Adam and Eve were before they chose to sin. They remain in God's bosom until they are seperated by sin - to which they now need Christ to bring them back.

I'm happy to say that the unborn, infants and little children indeed go to heaven if they die.

-A

 

[ChristianWildlife]

Sin is not a learned behavior. That is the devil's lie.

Sin entered our humanity through Adam. Are we held accountable for Adam's specific sin? No.

Are we sinners because we sin? No. We sin because we are sinners, born with the inherent sin nature that came from Adam.

There is absolutely positively no way on earth that anyone can be be born, outside of Christ's birth, with a sinless body because Adam sinned.

And there is absolutely positively no way on earth that anyone can be born again without the sacrifice of Christ Jesus and us trusting in Him for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[linssue55]

I fellow forumer brought up the idea that the doctrine on original sin or the belief that we are all stained with original sin was "a falacy, a perpetration based on assumption and opinions." I thought this would make for a good and interesting discussion/debate because I don't understand it totally. If you must know what I think I would say I heavily lean towards the belief that we are stained at birth, or conception, with original sin.

The term "original sin", as we are going to discuss in this thread, is not written in scripture. That odviously means that the belief that we are all stained with original sin comes from someones interpretation of scripture. These scriptures in which this interpretation was derived from is what I want to look at and discuss.

I know the doctrine on original sin is what most churches and denominations believe to be absolutely true and that it was discussed and debated and set in stone in the early church, exactly when I don't know. Yet, apparently, there are some who don't agree. I'd love to see what they have to say and how they would show through scripture how they believe the interpretation of scripture that is used to show the truth in original sin is flawed.

I know this will lead to the discuss of the nature of Jesus Christ. I ask that for the time being that we first tackle the job of our original sin first. Thank you

In chapter 5 of Romans, Paul describes how We are justified before God on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ, who came to earth to die for the sins of mankind. The chapter takes us back to how we got into the current mess we are in - back to our original parents, who committed the first sins. Paul's point in doing this is to compare the transgression by the transgressor to the redemption offered through the Redeemer. In this chapter, Paul makes it clear that, although Adam and Eve committed the first sin, we are guilty on the basis of our own sin:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Romans 5:12)

​

What the original sin did was to cause the human race to fall into the practice of sin. We are born to imperfect parents, whose sin negatively influences us. We become accustomed to committing "minor" sins without regard to their negative impact on our lives and the lives of others. However, God, in His love, provided the means by which all people could become completely righteous before Him, thus inheriting eternal life. To rid our souls of sin, use 1 John 1:9, thi sputs us BACK in fellowship......(use each time we sin, and keep short account of our sins, and confessing when needed)

 

[armothe]

Are we sinners because we sin? No. We sin because we are sinners, born with the inherent sin nature that came from Adam.

You can't consider yourself a baseball player until you play baseball.
You can't consider yourself a spuelunker until you repel down into a cave.
You can't consider yourself to be a pilot until you fly an airplane.
Nor can you consider yourself a sinner until you sin.

Nature never precedes action.
Action always precedes the nature.
Sin is indeed a behavior. Something that is learned.

And there is absolutely positively no way on earth that anyone can be born again without the sacrifice of Christ Jesus and us trusting in Him for the forgiveness of sin.

Nobody is arguing this. All sinners need to be "born again". The point of discussion is whether or not everyone is born a sinner (through genetics?).

Adam and Eve weren't created sinners, they became sinners once they sinned; as it is with all of us. We aren't born sinners - seperated from God. He still carries us in His bosom until sin separates that relationship. It is inevitable that we all sin at some point and become dependent upon the grace which God has granted us to put our sin behind us.

There is absolutely positively no way on earth that anyone can be be born, outside of Christ's birth, with a sinless body because Adam sinned.

Okay, so you believe Christ was actually born sinless. What was the critera for Him being born with no sin? Do you believe Jesus could have still sinned during His lifetime?

-A

 

[nephilimiyr]

Here's at least two passages from scripture that I think can put my mind at ease concerning the question of whether we inherited sin or not. Now these two passages in Psalms doesn't say we inherited sin but it does say that in our very beginning we were in sin.


Psalm 51:5, Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Odviously if David was sinful at the moment of his conception so we are too. Is it really that odvious?

Psalm 58:3, Even from birth the wicked go astray; and your hands mete out violence on the earth.
actually I can see how this verse is more in tune to what I had said previously.


However, with these two verses I have to conclude that we all have inherited sin otherwise what is this sin David is speaking about at his conception? Is there any other possible way we could read this? I don't think so but if you disagree I'd love to hear your take on it.

 

[nephilimiyr]

To me the original sin was to become self-centered and not being God-centered! The fruit of self-centeredness was and remains all the lusts. In Adam remains lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, lust for knowledge and the desire to be equal with God. In the nature of Jesus Christ we can regain what was lost and that is being back with God (Father). Only dieing to self and born again can we regain what was lost. Anyway………………….all sin originates from the original sin of self-centeredness. Adam is sick with I-my-me-itis!

I would say this lust mostly came from Adam and Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not something that was apart of their nature previously. The original sin, that is the first sin that Eve committed was the inplanted desire to want to become something greater than what she was designed to be and then disobeying God's clear command not to eat of the fruit.

In all honesty I can't argue with anything you said although I think you need to clarify what you mean about Adam being sick with I-my-me-itis. I don't believe Adam or Eve had any desire to be more than what they were or were self centered at all until the evil thought was put into their mind that all kinds of possibilities lie on the other side. I truely believe that in the case of Adam and Eve, the defense by saying "the devil made me do it" just might be legit, in their case anyway.

 

[woobadooba]

Here's at least two passages from scripture that I think can put my mind at ease concerning the question of whether we inherited sin or not. Now these two passages in Psalms doesn't say we inherited sin but it does say that in our very beginning we were in sin.


Psalm 51:5, Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Odviously if David was sinful at the moment of his conception so we are too. Is it really that odvious?

Psalm 58:3, Even from birth the wicked go astray; and your hands mete out violence on the earth.

With these two verses I have to conclude that we all have inherited sin otherwise what is this sin David is speaking about at his conception? Is there any other possible way we could read this? I don't think so but if you disagree I'd love to hear your take on it.

No, it's not obvious.

1. Psalm 51:5 doesn't read thus in the original. It just simply says that he was born into sin, not born sinful. And being born into sin is different than it is to be born with sin.

One suggests that a person is born into an environment wherein sin rules over the degenerate nature. The other suggests that that person is born guilty of sin.

And if this is so, and the Bible says, "Sin is the transgression of the law" 1Jn. 3:4, what sin then did David commit while he was in his mothers' womb?

2. Psalm 58:3 does not say a person is born with sin. In fact, if psalm 51:5 is saying that a person is born with sin, then the psalmist contradicted himself in 58:3, because according to one a person is born with sin, thus being astray from the point of his conception, and according to the other, a person goes astray from the point in which he comes out of the womb!

So which is it then, is the person astray from the point of conception, or does he go astray from the point of birth?

Surely you can see the non sequitur here, if it is to be interpreted that a person is born with sin.

3. both of these verses are poetic, and are not to be interpreted literally.

 

[nephilimiyr]

No, it's not obvious.

I was hoping someone would say that!

1. Psalm 51:5 doesn't read thus in the original. It just simply says that he was born into sin, not born sinful. And being born into sin is different than it is to be born with sin.

One suggests that a person is born into an environment wherein sin rules over the degenerate nature. The other suggests that that person is born guilty of sin.

I think you put your finger on the point here. I think I can agree with you on this.

And if this is so, and the Bible says, "Sin is the transgression of the law", what sin was did David commit while he was in his mothers' womb?

Absolutely nothing. David neither committed any sin but could not have committed any sin because in order to commit sin you have to be able to think, you have to be able to reason things out. At conception this simply is not possible and even maybe not possible during the span of the fetus and some would argue new born too. The point is, David at conception didn't commit sin and I would say neither did he at birth. He definately was conceived and born into an enviroment of sin.

2. Psalm 58:3 does not say a person is born with sin. In fact, if psalm 51:5 is saying that a person is born with sin, then the psalmist contradicted himself in 58:3, because according to one a person is born with sin, thus being astray from the point of his conception, and according to the other, a person goes astray from the point in which he comes out of the womb!

You will have to look at my edit in that post to see that I basically agree with you. That is if you read all my posts and understood them.

So which is it then, is the person astray from the point of conception, or does he go astray from the point of birth?

Surely you can see the non sequitur here, if it is to be interpreted that a person is born with sin.

I'm beginning to see it more clearly, yes.

3. both of these verses are poetic, and are not to be interpreted literally.

I'll leave this for possibly another thread.

 

[nephilimiyr]

The discussion seems to keep returning to the term "original sin". As stated in the OP, that phrase is not found in scripture, so looking for a scripture to support the term would seem counter-productive.

You are correct. Look, I'm not a theologian nor have I studied at any collegess or universities. I really don't understand what the term means but when I saw the other day someone make the statments on original sin it got my attention and curiosity. The forumer called the concept or the teaching on original sin a falacy built on assumptions and opinions. This was very intriging to me and was actually hoping this fellow would join in on this thread. mayube I need to pm him and link him to this thread but for someone to say that I think needs to explain himself.

A better focus might be sin nature or fallen nature vs. the act of committing sin. Do we today inherit a sin/fallen nature from our parents? Yes, scriptures have already been supplied to support this. Are we today held accountable for Adam's specific sin? I am not aware of anything in scripture to support this, so I would say No.

Are we therefore lost and in need of salvation? Yes. Why? Because as has been said, we are born spritiually dead, separated from God. It is by being born again that we are saved. As Jesus said John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, we are lost by nature, a nature we inherit from our parents, but we are not held accountable for Adam's specific sin.

It's probably my fault for tying original sin with sin nature but this is why I asked in the OP what the possible difference's were. I am starting to get a grasp...thank you!

 

[armothe]

Psalm 51:5, Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Odviously if David was sinful at the moment of his conception so we are too. Is it really that odvious?

And now for the literal translation.
Psalm 51:5, "Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me."

Did anyone realize that David was spawned from an adulterous relationship?

Psalm 58:3, Even from birth the wicked go astray; and your hands mete out violence on the earth. actually I can see how this verse is more in tune to what I had said previously.

Psalm 58:3, "The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies."

If you read closely, only the wicked have been estranged from the womb - clearly David is making a distinction between the righteous and the wicked. Evidence that everyone is born a sinner? I don't think so.

More likely, when read in context - amongst all of the other allegories and metaphors - David is using this statement as an exaggeration to describe his foes.

We really need to be careful not to simply swallow the things we learned in Sunday School and learn to read God's word for ourselves understanding context, setting, background, audience, cultural relevance and other literary skills. It's so easy to "westernize" everything.

-A

 

[PraiseToHim]

*Evidence that spiritual death is counted against a person because they sinned, not because they were born.

Adam and Eve committed the original sin - for sin had to have an origin. Really, the discussion is regarding inherited sin - or being born with sin.


-A

I'm just curious, which Christian Denominations believe that we all inherit original sin and which do not?