Original Sin

[nephilimiyr]

I fellow forumer brought up the idea that the doctrine on original sin or the belief that we are all stained with original sin was "a falacy, a perpetration based on assumption and opinions." I thought this would make for a good and interesting discussion/debate because I don't understand it totally. If you must know what I think I would say I heavily lean towards the belief that we are stained at birth, or conception, with original sin.

The term "original sin", as we are going to discuss in this thread, is not written in scripture. That odviously means that the belief that we are all stained with original sin comes from someones interpretation of scripture. These scriptures in which this interpretation was derived from is what I want to look at and discuss.

I know the doctrine on original sin is what most churches and denominations believe to be absolutely true and that it was discussed and debated and set in stone in the early church, exactly when I don't know. Yet, apparently, there are some who don't agree. I'd love to see what they have to say and how they would show through scripture how they believe the interpretation of scripture that is used to show the truth in original sin is flawed.

I know this will lead to the discuss of the nature of Jesus Christ. I ask that for the time being that we first tackle the job of our original sin first. Thank you

 

[nephilimiyr]

I'll start it out I guess.

I think the best place to start is with the Epistle of Romans.

Romans 5:12-14, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

To me, this is the best scriptural evidence of there being such a thing as original sin. How can someone disagree with that, please let me know.

 

[armothe]

Romans 5:12-14, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, *because all sinned.

*Evidence that spiritual death is counted against a person because they sinned, not because they were born.

Adam and Eve committed the original sin - for sin had to have an origin. Really, the discussion is regarding inherited sin - or being born with sin.


-A

 

[nephilimiyr]

*Evidence that spiritual death is counted against a person because they sinned, not because they were born.

Adam and Eve committed the original sin - for sin had to have an origin. Really, the discussion is regarding inherited sin - or being born with sin.


-A

Wouldn't the belief in original sin be the same as inherited sin or born with sin? I see the concepts as being very similar. Both say that we had no conscious thought over it, that because of Adam's sin we are cursed. Both say that we are born with a sinful nature, it's inherited to all people. Could you please explain to me what the difference in the two would be.

As for your interpretation I do see where you're coming from. You're saying the passage doesn't at all speak about sin being inherited but just that spiritual death is the result of ones sins.

Let me ask you this; if there is no inherited sin or if none of us has this original sin, do you then believe that we all are born with a spirit and that our spirits die when we commit our first sin? This would be saying that as Adam and Eve had there own spirit before they sinned so do we. Their spirits died on the day they frist sinned and so it is true for us?

 

[GraceInHim]

Wouldn't the belief in original sin be the same as inherited sin or born with sin? I see the concepts as being very similar. Both say that we had no conscious thought over it, that because of Adam's sin we are cursed. Both say that we are born with a sinful nature, it's inherited to all people. Could you please explain to me what the difference in the two would be.

As for your interpretation I do see where you're coming from. You're saying the passage doesn't at all speak about sin being inherited but just that spiritual death is the result of ones sins.

Let me ask you this; if there is no inherited sin or if none of us has this original sin, do you then believe that we all are born with a spirit and that our spirits die when we commit our first sin? This would be saying that as Adam and Eve had there own spirit before they sinned so do we. Their spirits died on the day they frist sinned and so it is true for us?

I believe we are born with sin, Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, that place must of been a beautiful place, now they did not know evil, like shame of being naked until they ate from the tree of knowledge - therefore they were kicked out and had to live by working to eat and live - the other place was a place of complete Utopia - had to of been for God to have Angels at the gates guarding it -- why place Angels somewhere if there is nothing but a garden as we could have today in our backyards? why did not God smite the area and burn it down? why guarding?

Yes, everyone is born with sin of man and not even the washing of the earth from Noah's flood got rid of that...

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi GraceInHim!

I believe we are born with sin, Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, that place must of been a beautiful place, now they did not know evil, like shame of being naked until they ate from the tree of knowledge - therefore they were kicked out and had to live by working to eat and live - the other place was a place of complete Utopia - had to of been for God to have Angels at the gates guarding it -- why place Angels somewhere if there is nothing but a garden as we could have today in our backyards? why did not God smite the area and burn it down? why guarding?

Yes, everyone is born with sin of man and not even the washing of the earth from Noah's flood got rid of that...

So then you believe that this sin was inherited to us or do you call this a nature of sin that is in us and it's this nature of being sinful that is inherited?

 

[woobadooba]

I fellow forumer brought up the idea that the doctrine on original sin or the belief that we are all stained with original sin was "a falacy, a perpetration based on assumption and opinions." I thought this would make for a good and interesting discussion/debate because I don't understand it totally. If you must know what I think I would say I heavily lean towards the belief that we are stained at birth, or conception, with original sin.

The term "original sin", as we are going to discuss in this thread, is not written in scripture. That odviously means that the belief that we are all stained with original sin comes from someones interpretation of scripture. These scriptures in which this interpretation was derived from is what I want to look at and discuss.

I know the doctrine on original sin is what most churches and denominations believe to be absolutely true and that it was discussed and debated and set in stone in the early church, exactly when I don't know. Yet, apparently, there are some who don't agree. I'd love to see what they have to say and how they would show through scripture how they believe the interpretation of scripture that is used to show the truth in original sin is flawed.

I know this will lead to the discuss of the nature of Jesus Christ. I ask that for the time being that we first tackle the job of our original sin first. Thank you

I have a few questions:

1. Does the Bible say we are all sinners, or does it just simply say that all have sinned?

2. Is the sinful nature a state of being or a sin?

3. Did all humankind really inherit Adam's sin, or did we inherit the penality for his sin?

 

[eoe]

We inherit the fallen nature that was the result of sin but we do not inherit the guilt of original sin.

 

[GraceInHim]

Hi GraceInHim!


So then you believe that this sin was inherited to us or do you call this a nature of sin that is in us and it's this nature of being sinful that is inherited?

Looking at God's own voice, yes all fall short, all sinned, and what did he mean they shall surely die? maybe we will not live forever on earth of sin?
Only in the New Kingdom?

Romans 3

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Genesis 2:16-25
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

 

[fwiwwl]

To me the original sin was to become self-centered and not being God-centered! The fruit of self-centeredness was and remains all the lusts. In Adam remains lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, lust for knowledge and the desire to be equal with God. In the nature of Jesus Christ we can regain what was lost and that is being back with God (Father). Only dieing to self and born again can we regain what was lost. Anyway………………….all sin originates from the original sin of self-centeredness. Adam is sick with I-my-me-itis!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Looking at God's own voice, yes all fall short, all sinned, and what did he mean they shall surely die? maybe we will not live forever on earth of sin?
Only in the New Kingdom?

But I don't see those who object to the belief of "original sin" saying that not all have sinned or will fall short of the glory of God.

Here's what I see them saying, or possibly saying. That we all sin, we all have and we all wil, but we don't start out in this life with a sin billed on our account because of what happend in the garden of Eden. That was Adam and Eve's sin, not ours.

Romans 3

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

No arguement there, pretty strait forward. This doesn't prove original sin though.

Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Very true but like armothe posted earlier, this only speaks of Adam and Eve committing the first sin and how death became the penalty for sin. This passage doesn't really say anything about how we humans are now charged with the same sin but again, the penalty, which is death.

Genesis 2:16-25
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

And spiritual death was the result.

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Yes, then they sinned and the result was spiritual seperation from God, they died spiritually. After the sin, God passed curses on all 3 parties to the crime. We all share in the curse passed on to Adam and Eve but because of sin entering into the world things changed. Not only are we physically effected by this but the world around us is effected. The bible states the whole creation groans and not just the creation but we ourselves, Romans 8:22-23.

All I'm saying is, where's the evidence that shows that we start out this life in sin before we even commit sin? Is it possible that this belief in original sin has nothing to do with how Adam and Eve's sin has been charged to our own personal account but rather that because we are all spiritually dead to begin with sin is ineventable. That's saying that we all start out with 0 in our accouint but because we are spiritually dead, we sin and our account starts adding up.

 

[nephilimiyr]

We inherit the fallen nature that was the result of sin but we do not inherit the guilt of original sin.

I understand that eoe, thanks, but I'm asking for the scriptural proof or even just the reasoning in scruiptura behind this belief.

 

[GraceInHim]

All I'm saying is, where's the evidence that shows that we start out this life in sin before we even commit sin? Is it possible that this belief in original sin has nothing to do with how Adam and Eve's sin has been charged to our own personal account but rather that because we are all spiritually dead to begin with sin is ineventable. That's saying that we all start out with 0 in our accouint but because we are spiritually dead, we sin and our account starts adding up.

I say if this is the case then why did God need Jesus to go into a Virgin Body?

Why not just take any baby that would be born, like David, Solomon, Moses, Aron, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Isaac?

Because no one born on earth is without sin... forgiven yes... no sin at all and unblemished before forgiveness - NONE...

Just my thoughts</FONT>

 

[Joykins]

These beliefs are scriptural:

• All people sin. It is inevitable.
• The "fall" story demonstrates that sin is "out of the bag." With the knowledge of good and evil, sin becomes possible and we become accountable for our actions, and a barrier is placed in our relationship with God because of it.
• It is not scriptural to state that we are judged or condemned on the basis of sins that we do not personally commit. The sins we (as rational people) actually do commit are more than sufficient to demonstrate that something has gone horribly wrong.
• As far as "original sin" goes to explain the above, fine. As far as "original sin" being used to hold us accountable for sins we do not actually commit--not so fine.

 

[popslittlewonder]

actually the bible says we are sinful from birth so we just named that sin from birth its that simple

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have a few questions:

1. Does the Bible say we are all sinners, or does it just simply say that all have sinned?

Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and I'm more than sure that in other places it either says that we are all sinners or the implication is clear to that point.

2. Is the sinful nature a state of being or a sin?

Good question. I would say it's a state of being.

3. Did all humankind really inherit Adam's sin, or did we inherit the penality for his sin?

if you've read my recent posts I say that we do inherit the penalty for sin which is death. As for whether we inherited Adam and Eve's sin, well, that is what I'm asking for scriptural evidence for.

 

[nephilimiyr]

These beliefs are scriptural:

• All people sin. It is inevitable.

Correct, I totally agree!

The "fall" story demonstrates that sin is "out of the bag." With the knowledge of good and evil, sin becomes possible and we become accountable for our actions, and a barrier is placed in our relationship with God because of it.

Ok but one thing...Adam and Eve first had to sin before they knew the knowledge of good and evil, receiveing the knowledge of good and evil was one of the results of their sin...not a cuase for it. What that odviously means is that they always had the potential to sin. The fact that they did sin would then mean that they then entered into a sin nature.

It is not scriptural to state that we are judged or condemned on the basis of sins that we do not personally commit. The sins we (as rational people) actually do commit are more than sufficient to demonstrate that something has gone horribly wrong.

I agree, well put!

As far as "original sin" goes to explain the above, fine. As far as "original sin" being used to hold us accountable for sins we do not actually commit--not so fine.

I'm tending to agree with this more and more.

 

[Iollain]

The whole human race is under the curse of death and sin, the Jews are under the Law, but Jesus, who is the perfect law, and does not have a human father, is sinless. All the human race is under the curse from Adam, not Eve, so says the scripture. Jesus is sinless because He being who He is could follow the Law perfectly, His Father is sinless, He overcame the flesh and His death becomes our death, His resurrection will become our resurrection.

 

[Iollain]

Without Jesus there would be none of Adam's seed saved, all would die.

 

[GraceInHim]

The whole human race is under the curse of death and sin, the Jews are under the Law, but Jesus, who is the perfect law, and does not have a human father, is sinless. All the human race is under the curse from Adam, not Eve, so says the scripture. Jesus is sinless because He being who He is could follow the Law perfectly, His Father is sinless, He overcame the flesh and His death becomes our death, His resurrection will become our resurrection.

also this verse about Elizabeth
The reason is that in Luke 1:13-15, when an angel prophecies the birth of John the Baptist, he says:

Do not be afraid, Zechari'ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth;
for he will be great before the Lord,and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

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