I'm curious about the term "earth age" that you are using. What does that mean to you? I may be obvious, but few view it that way. I understand what most call "eternity" to be an age to come.
I know about Satan's rebellion (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28). I know too that God made Adam neutral. He was not a sinner but he could choose to obey God or not.I'm not accusing God. It was not our Heavenly Father's fault that He placed this present world earth age in bondage to corruption.
It's evident you don't understand what Apostle Paul was talking about in Romans 8:18-25 about God placing this present world in bondage to corruption, nor that the very first sin against Him was in the previous world earth age by Satan.
Many brethren like yourself don't understand God's Word when it points to a previous world earth age before Adam and Eve when Satan followed God and was perfect in his ways (Ezekiel 28; Ezekiel 31).
Like Apostle John said, the devil sinned from the beginning, and that is how death became a part of this present world earth age associated with the flesh. But in the world to come, after Satan, hell and the wicked go into the future "lake of fire", like Revelation 21 teaches, there will be no more death. Lord Jesus was sent not just to conquer death for us, but also the one who has the power of death, the devil (Hebrews 2:14-15).
So Adam and Eve just being made flesh was into a state of corrupted flesh, for like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
But today, many are being lied to about the flesh so that they tend to think flesh is part of Christ's salvation. It is not our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus, it is our spirit.
I would rather say, we are born to death and are dying here. We are not yet dead, because death is a slow process, but we are slowly dying every day in here.[/QUOTE
That's not what the Bible says. If you are talking physical death, sure. But God said that the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you will surely die. Adam and Eve did not slowly drift away from God. They immediately hid from God and tried to cover up. Then they began the "it's not my fault" blame game that humans excel at. They were still active in the soul realm, but they were spiritually dead. The is the part of us that is born again and that is what it means to be made alive. The new spirit is where Lord Jesus lives so that we may live the life that pleases God.
As Paul says, the outward man is decaying but we are being renewed inwardly day by day. (2 Corinthians 4:16) I'm nearly 70, so I am well aware of the ageing process!
Yes, I agree. People are born as sinners and even conceived as sinners as is proven by the death of infants in utero and as small babies. Death is the wages for sin NOT the consequence of being given life as a human. Death proves sinfulness. None are righteous, no, not one.My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.
God did not force Adam to sin or create him with a propensity to sin. Adam was neutral. God required Adam to choose. There were two trees of note in the middle of Eden. The other tree was the tree of life. Adam had the right to choose from that tree, but not knowledge of good and evil. It is obvious to me that God intended for Adam to eat from the tree of life. The option was there and there was a strong prohibition on eating from the tree of knowledge. How hard can it be? Eat what you like apart from one fruit? Yet Adam chose to reject God's command, as simple as it was, and accept Satan's offer.Yes, I agree. People are born as sinners and even conceived as sinners as is proven by the death of infants in utero and as small babies. Death is the wages for sin NOT the consequence of being given life as a human. Death proves sinfulness. None are righteous, no, not one.
Yet if we use the term original sin to refer to the idea that people inherit Adam's sin or the consequences of Adam's sin then I must protest that the GOD who is loving, righteous and just would never create anyone, let alone HIS Bride, to be as filthy rags without any free will decison to be evil.
Love Is Kind. What is this kindness that has everyone after Adam living in the consequences of his rebellion? It is impossible, a reprehensible calumny.
I did not say our sinful nature blames GOD in any way since sinfulness can be only a natural consequence of CHOOSING sin...
But the doctrine that our sin nature is inherited from Adam brings blame upon GOD for our sin because
1. we had no choice but to have a sin nature, that is, it was by HIS will, not ours, we got a sin nature and
2. HE created the system whereby we would get a sin nature through no fault or choice of our own and
3. there was no theological necessity for HIM to make us, HIS Bride, as corrupt and grossly evil in Adam and
4. to do so does NOT fit in the least with HIS self revealed character as loving, righteous and just, thereby bringing HIS good Name into disrepute.
Since we made no choice and had no say in our being created evil by means of inheriting sin from Adam, under this doctrine GOD must carry the blame for all sin except Adam's and Eve's sin, and for all the attenuating suffering and for every human in hell and the disrepute these things bring upon HIM...
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this psalm is true, HE would never have created the evil reprobate for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil.
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone... Nor did HE create anyone to die, either giving them the wages of sin at their birth nor at their death or in hell for HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. All earning of death is our choice as HIS lack of pleasure in any death proves...
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. This sounds the same but it adds the thought that if He wants them to repent and live, how much more would HE avoid the displeasure of their death by the simple act of not creating those who would never repent in the first place as these verses suggest HIS pleasure would lead HIM?
Oh, but what about Election by HIS Pleasure?
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will... This proves election is by HIS pleasure but it does not say HE took pleasure out of the ignoring, the passing over of the reprobate to leave them in damnation, whereas these other verses imply their evil and death would give HIM no pleasure at all. All of the references to HIS good pleasure seem to me to be appended to election but never damnation.
Peace, Ted
The latter part of Romans 7 Paul using himself in describing the frustration of the person seeking justification by keeping the law flawlessly, sinlessly apart from Christ as Jews did under the OT law of Moses. The Jew would always end up sinning breaking the law. Paul contrasts that justification by perfect law keeping apart from Christ that fails verses "now" being in Christ where there is no condemnation, Romans 8:1Paul was describing one who is saved, not an unsaved person. If unsaved people had a conviction of sin, then the Holy Spirit would be out of a job, in evangelism at least.
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Adam's descendants have Adam's fallen nature. It's that simple. How could they not? And empirically demonstrable human behaviour proves the point.
My point is no man inherits sin or a sin nature from Adam.You keep arguing about Adam's sin. No one is saying we inherited his sin. Original Sin is not Adams sin. When he sinned his inner nature changed, we inherited this changed nature. The propensity to sin.
Propensity: An inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.
Great Post Aussie and I feel that Adam and Eve are great example as they chose to listen to a lie and thanks to them I have to deal with the fallout of their sin since brought into the world illness, wars, death. I am just glad that Jesus came to set us free from sin and death and he promised he was preparing a place for us and that in reality you can't lose your name from the Lamb's Book of Life but in my world of paranoid schizophrenia I see a blue light and I have fear but I am starting to come around to the truth despite these nightmares. I am starting to realize that I don't have the Mark of the Beast and that the Yellow Light is truly nothing people see the Holy Spirit in my life. They know my heart and it is never to worship Satan but Jesus and Jesus knows that it was my illness that caused me to bow to the Yellow Light. I realize that Satan has much better candidates to be a False prophet/Antichrist. Once your a Christian your saved by the blood and you can't lose the blood of Jesus the sun looking different and the knuckles is a hallucination. My cousin was telling me in the facility where she works clients are worried there soul is stolen but once you trust Jesus you can't have your soul stolen. Satan can't be in my heart and brain from a yellow light it isn't in the Bible. One day I will get to Heaven and I will ask God why he allowed me to see the Yellow Light/Cross there must be a reason God allowed me to get sick. Adam and Eve caused my sickness by their sin the Yellow Light wouldn't be a fair temptation anyway since Jesus doesn't warn about one and it isn't tangible like an Apple. I think that is why my parents are so calm is they realize the Yellow Light isn't blasphemy of the Holy Spirit nor is it the Mark of the Beast it isn't out yet as were under the new covenant and I don't think God would allow Satan to tempt a mentally ill person with the Mark or no mentally ill person would be in Heaven. I really wish Adam and Eve didn't sin my life would be less confusing. I am just glad from listening to scripture at night and praise music I realize that there is no yellow light mentioned which means it isn't real which means I am okay with God and truly in the Lamb's Book of Life Aussie great post.
...If you are talking physical death, sure. But God said that the day you eat of the tree of good and evil, you will surely die. ...
I know about Satan's rebellion (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28). I know too that God made Adam neutral. He was not a sinner but he could choose to obey God or not.
I do not take the term "Original Sin" (neither do I use it myself) as meaning Adam was the first sinner. Satan gets that dubious distinction. The root of sin is disobedience. Unbelievers are called "sons of disobedience". (Colossians 3:6, Ephesians 2:2 & 3, Ephesians 5:6).
If that were true then there would be no death before we sinned our own sin worthy of death....whereas the doctrine of ancestral sin teaches that while we did inherit Adam’s sinful nature we did not inherit the guilt and punishment for the sin that Adam committed.
A righteous spirit cannot inhabit an evil body. Nor do I beleive a body can be evil on its own. This is an imaginative reconciliation butWhat I underlined above is that false idea about the flesh I spoke of. Adam and Eve were not made neutral when God made them flesh. It's because the flesh is not neutral, but is a state of corruption and assigned to death. That seed of death was already in Adam and Eve's flesh before... they committed the sin.
If that were true then there would be no death before we sinned our own sin worthy of death.
If everyone is born (conceived?) spiritually dead, then how did that come about?unless the reference to death in Genesis was referring to a spiritual death which would make sense since everyone is born spiritually dead.
If everyone is born (conceived?) spiritually dead, then how did that come about?
1. GOD created them spiritually dead at conception.
2. GOD adjudicated them to be spiritually dead at their birth.
3. They sinned and became spiritually dead before they were conceived as human. This of course would necessitate they were created and had existence before (pre) their conception with a free will and the ability and opportunity to choose sin.
Spiritual death is the result of sin. To inherit spiritual death from Adam we had to inherit HIS sinfulness, with no personal choice to be against GOD in any way. GOD would never create anyone in the position of being against HIM.Their spiritual death was inherited from Adam.
Apostle John defined sin as transgression of the law, meaning God's law. That's what Satan did first when he coveted God's place in wanting to be GOD. That is how 'death' came into existence, as Hebrews 2:14-15 shows the power of death has been assigned to Satan. Satan was already judged and sentenced to perish by the time of Adam and Eve being made flesh, because God tells us at the end of Isaiah 30 that Tophet is ordained of old for him. The reason Jesus was foreordained 'before the foundation of the world' (this present world), was to defeat Satan and death for us. Thus flesh death was planned before this present world, but after death had been assigned to Satan because of his sin in that old world. It's time to leave the childish doctrines of men about Adam and Eve's state in Eden before they sinned, and the original sin idea, and get down to understanding all of God's Word. And part of that understanding is grasping about the old world when Satan was originally created perfect in his ways until he rebelled against God in coveting His throne.
My point is no man inherits sin or a sin nature from Adam.
Why is Psalms 51:5 used to prove that men, as David, are born sinners having inherited Adam's sin? The NIV MIStranslates this verse "Surely I was sinful at birth"
According to you, was David born a sinner having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless yet born with a 'propensity to sin" therefore sinned later in life?
Again was David "sinful at birth" having inherited Adam's sin or was he born sinless NOT inheriting Adam's sin but instead inheriting a 'propensity to sin' therefore David became a sinner later in life but not at birth?
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