Original sin, yes, no, or not that important?

[Butterball1]

But sin was in the world before the law was given. This is original sin. And in essence, the command not to eat of the tree was a law for Adam. Which he broke.

Romans 5:13-14
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

There was sin in the world before the law of Moses but it was not original sin. Romans 5:14 as you cite says "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
If eveyone inherited Adam's sin then all would be guilty of the same exact sin. Yet Rom 5:14 speaks of those who sinned sins DIFFERENT from Adam. Sin reigned in Sodom for a sin they committed that was different from Adam's. Hence people died as a result from their OWN sin they committed not due to any sin they passively inherited from Adam... Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins.." NOT being dead in Adam's sin.

 

[Butterball1]

I say that you misunderstand God's dealings with Israel. God gave His law in the full knowledge that Israel would fail. It's not that God's law is too hard. (Deuteronomy 30:11). It is that there is innate rebellion in the very core of man's being. He has no desire to keep God's law. Mentally, he may agree. In his inner man, he will not obey. That's why the new birth is essential.

Deuteronomy 30:11 shows that the law of Moses was accessible....it could be understood, in other words, they could not claim ignorance. It also shows that the law did not require anything that was impossible for them to perform, for example, the law did not require a person to life a 3 ton boulder.

So they could understand the law, they could perform the law yet the problem was they could not carry it out perfectly for again, that OT law of Moses requires strict perfect flawless obedience to be justified by it. None was able to keep it perfectly (other than Christ). Therefore the law showed the Jew his need to rely on God's grace for justification and not just rely upon the Jews ability to carry out the law perfectly.... because they could not. Paul says in Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..." That's because no man could keep the law perfectly, flawlessly sinlessly which is what that law required to be justified.

 

[Butterball1]

It is really simple. Adam sinned and died spiritually. Every single individual descended from Adam is dead spiritually. No one needs to teach a child to sin. It's an inbuilt inclination that NOTHING can change. Except for the miracle of the new birth.

Yes, God's mercy and love accepts the newborn and those who do not make it into the world alive. I raised four children. I could see the law of sin and death working without any help from anyone.

Each person dies spiritually due to each person's OWN sin, not due to passively inheriting Adam's sin. Those in Sodom died as a result of their OWN sin that was not "....after the likeness of Adam’s transgression" Romans 5:14.

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins.."

 

[Aussie Pete]

Each person dies spiritually due to each person's OWN sin, not due to passively inheriting Adam's sin. Those in Sodom died as a result of their OWN sin that was not "....after the likeness of Adam’s transgression" Romans 5:14.

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins.."

Sure. And all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. All means all. All mankind is subject to the law of sin and death. A law in this sense means something that is fixed and firm, a principle, not a legal code. People sin because it is in their nature to sin. They do not become sinners sometime along the road of life. If your premise was true, it would be possible for someone to live a sinless life. That is not what the Bible states.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Deuteronomy 30:11 shows that the law of Moses was accessible....it could be understood, in other words, they could not claim ignorance. It also shows that the law did not require anything that was impossible for them to perform, for example, the law did not require a person to life a 3 ton boulder.

So they could understand the law, they could perform the law yet the problem was they could not carry it out perfectly for again, that OT law of Moses requires strict perfect flawless obedience to be justified by it. None was able to keep it perfectly (other than Christ). Therefore the law showed the Jew his need to rely on God's grace for justification and not just rely upon the Jews ability to carry out the law perfectly.... because they could not. Paul says in Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..." That's because no man could keep the law perfectly, flawlessly sinlessly which is what that law required to be justified.

I don't understand your point. I agree with what you say, but it appears to contradict the idea that people are not born sinners. What better start in life can anyone have than to be given the best possible set of rules to follow and the universe's greatest incentive program (blessing and cursing). But even within the law, there was provision for sin. God expected people to sin, fail and fall short of His glory. That's because all people a born with the propensity to sin. Murderers may face the death penalty but they kill anyway. Jesus said that if you hate someone, it's as good as murdering them. God looks at the heart, not outward conformity to His rules. That is the whole point of the sermon on the mount.

 

[bling]

Sure. And all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. All means all. All mankind is subject to the law of sin and death. A law in this sense means something that is fixed and firm, a principle, not a legal code. People sin because it is in their nature to sin. They do not become sinners sometime along the road of life. If your premise was true, it would be possible for someone to live a sinless life. That is not what the Bible states.

"All" does not have to mean everyone ever conceived. This "all" could be referring to just mature adults. Just because a new born baby does cannot sin does not mean someone could reach maturity without sinning. Adam and Eve sinned with the "nature" they had and only having one way to sin, so with the knowledge of good and evil (a conscience) we have tons of ways to sin and thus will sin.

 

[Butterball1]

Sure. And all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. All means all. All mankind is subject to the law of sin and death. A law in this sense means something that is fixed and firm, a principle, not a legal code. People sin because it is in their nature to sin. They do not become sinners sometime along the road of life. If your premise was true, it would be possible for someone to live a sinless life. That is not what the Bible states.

Jesus became part of mankind and He choose not to sin. Infants are not capable of sinning. The "all" Paul refers to is the groups Jew and Gentile and not each and every person.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

--Paul uses "many" not "all".
--Paul does NOT say man were made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY at birth nor made righteous UNCONDITIONALLY at birth. Many are CONDITIONALLY made sinners when they choose to sin Rormans 5:12. Christ nor infants choose to sin so they are not of the many. Many are CONDITIONALLY made righteous when they choose to have faith, Romans 5:1. People read the idea of UNCONDITIONALITY into the verse.

=======================

1 John 3:4; Romans 4:15; Romans 7:8-9. Just from these 3 verses the Bible shows for one to be a sinner requires there be a law and that law be transgressed by an accountable person. Yet OS has people sinners at conception or birth, that is, make unaccountable people who have not transgressed God's law sinners. So what the Bible teachs about sin, law and transgression makes the idea of OS is impossible.

=======================

You posted "People sin because it is in their nature to sin." Men are not born with a nature that forces man to sin against his will. Such an idea makes man an innocent victim of sin and not a guilty perpetrator. God could not justly judge one born with a physical nature that forces one to sin against his will. God does not judge man according to physical inability but moral inability. Adam & Eve did not have a sin nature but still sinned. No sin nature is needed for man to become a sinner...just a law and free will to choose and break that law.

 

[Butterball1]

I don't understand your point. I agree with what you say, but it appears to contradict the idea that people are not born sinners. What better start in life can anyone have than to be given the best possible set of rules to follow and the universe's greatest incentive program (blessing and cursing). But even within the law, there was provision for sin. God expected people to sin, fail and fall short of His glory. That's because all people a born with the propensity to sin. Murderers may face the death penalty but they kill anyway. Jesus said that if you hate someone, it's as good as murdering them. God looks at the heart, not outward conformity to His rules. That is the whole point of the sermon on the mount.

The Bible does not teach men are born sinners. That is man-made idea that is usually attributed to Ausgustine. Jesus, His APostles nor any BIble writer ever taught the idea of original sin.

People are sinners for they choose to sin and not passively born sinners against their will making man an innocent, victim of sin. So men are not born with a propensity to sin that foces man to sin against his will therefore unjustly held acountable for a physical inabilityborn with . But man is born with a free will and justly held accountable for moral abilities in choices made.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The Bible does not teach men are born sinners. That is man-made idea that is usually attributed to Ausgustine. Jesus, His APostles nor any BIble writer ever taught the idea of original sin.

People are sinners for they choose to sin and not passively born sinners against their will making man an innocent, victim of sin. So men are not born with a propensity to sin that foces man to sin against his will therefore unjustly held acountable for a physical inabilityborn with . But man is born with a free will and justly held accountable for moral abilities in choices made.

In that case, someone, somewhere, some time could have lived a life that was sinless. Paul's dilemma in Romans 7 states it perfectly. He knew right and wrong and agreed absolutely with God's law. That was overcome by the law of sin that lived in him.
"14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Paul did not need to choose to sin. It is a law as certain as gravity. We sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners when we sin.

We are accountable because Adam represents all mankind in sin. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."

 

[coffee4u]

The first is false. We know enough about the origins of humans to realize that there was never a literal Adam, and the way we evolved doesn't leave an opportunity for moral perfection.

The origin of humans is that God took dust formed a man and breathed into him soul and spirit.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Now you may choose not to believe that. If you want to say "I believe a literal Adam never existed" go right ahead but you do not get to tell us that evolution is a fact and that the Bible is wrong. That is not a theological viewpoint but your belief in science. If it was a theological stance then you would have scriptural backing for it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I wish there was a more emphatic way to say "agree"!

 

[Butterball1]

In that case, someone, somewhere, some time could have lived a life that was sinless. Paul's dilemma in Romans 7 states it perfectly. He knew right and wrong and agreed absolutely with God's law. That was overcome by the law of sin that lived in him.
"14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Paul did not need to choose to sin. It is a law as certain as gravity. We sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners when we sin.

We are accountable because Adam represents all mankind in sin. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."

Jesus chose to live a sinless life, those that die as infants or born with severe mental diabilities live sinless lives.

In Romans 7, Paul takes responsibility for his own sinning..... Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

Again, the Bible shows for one to be a sinner, there must be a law and a accountable person must transgress that law. This is what Paul is describing in Romans 7:15, that he is a sinner due to his own choices in giving in to temptation and sinning. Nowhere does he ascribe his sinning to Adam or some sin nature he was born with. Such would have made him a passive, innocent victim of sin and not a guilty, willful perpetrator and he could not be justly held accountable for sins that he was forced to do by a physical nature he was born with against his will.

Furthermore, the context of Romans 7 disproves the idea of total depravity, for Paul is describing himself as one who knows the law, who delights in the law of God and strives to keep the law/do good.....this does NOT describe total depraved person.

Romans 5:12 does NOT say "for that all have passively, unconditonally inherited Adam's sin'. That idea is being read into the verse. It does say "for that all have sinned" which shows peronal culpability in having choosen to sin/transgress God's law.

 

[Davy]

Recently, a poster questioned the concept of Original Sin. He/she quoted Ezekiel 18 as a counter argument. My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.

Let's allow that the doctrine of Original Sin is incorrect or at least, not proven. It still leaves humanity with an insoluble problem. God created Adam and Eve "good" but they were incomplete. That is apparent from the provision of two unique trees in the garden of Eden. There was the tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God warned Adam that the fruit of the knowledge tree was deadly. There was no other restriction placed on Adam.

We know the sorry story. Eve was deceived by the Serpent and Adam chose to join in her disobedience. The history of the human race demonstrates just how bad Adam's decision turned out to be.

Now God warned Adam that he would die. Please note that God did not say, "Adam, I will kill you". Adam did not die physically. His soul did not die. He could still think, feel and choose. So what did God mean? What God referred to was the spirit of man. Man died spiritually. Death is not the end of existence. We can see from the Genesis account that man still existed. But the man and the woman immediately covered up and hid from God.

The next thing was that they pushed the blame elsewhere. Adam blamed God - it was Eve's fault and God gave him Eve. Eve blamed the Serpent. And so it has been since that terrible day. How often have unbelievers told us that they are good people, in spite of blindingly obvious sin in their lives.

God closed access to the Tree of Life. From that time on, man had to live only by the knowledge of Good and Evil.

There is a great deal more to say on this subject, but I realise that people do not like to read overly long dissertations. Congratulations if you've got this far!

Not wanting to sound picky, but there's simple Bible truths missing there so far that changes the path you went on this topic.

A new babe in Christ might easily default to those ideas above, but a workman in God's Word by The Holy Spirit will understand more about the real first sin against God, not by Adam and Eve, but by Satan in a time before this present world.

By the time of Adam and Eve in God's Eden, Satan had already sinned against God in coveting His throne, and was already acting as Adversary in God's Garden against Adam and Eve. Adam's flesh was never intended to be God's Salvation, otherwise it would have been impossible for Adam and Eve to be tempted by that old serpent. Yet the sin by Adam and Eve imparted to all born in the flesh had to happen, otherwise Christ's preordained coming to die on the cross would have been needless. All these factors must be understood to proper grasp just what happened with Adam and Even in God's Garden of Eden.

In Romans 7, Apostle really nails this matter of sin down, as he defined two warring factions, a war between our flesh body of sin vs. our spirit. He then declares that only Jesus Christ can free us from this body of death. Thus Paul pointed to our flesh as being one of the main factors for our sins during this present world time, all its wants and lusts, and groanings, often prevent us from doing what our spirit desires to do in following Christ. Understanding this in contrast to Adam and Eve's flesh shows their position in God's Garden before the sin was still a setup. They could never be perfect in their flesh, as the 'seed' of sin was already in their flesh, allowing them to be tempted toward sin. It had to happen too, otherwise Christ's coming to die on the cross for the remission of sins by those who believe would mean nothing otherwise. By this the concept of original sin, per God's Word, is easily understood.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Not wanting to sound picky, but there's simple Bible truths missing there so far that changes the path you went on this topic.

A new babe in Christ might easily default to those ideas above, but a workman in God's Word by The Holy Spirit will understand more about the real first sin against God, not by Adam and Eve, but by Satan in a time before this present world.

By the time of Adam and Eve in God's Eden, Satan had already sinned against God in coveting His throne, and was already acting as Adversary in God's Garden against Adam and Eve. Adam's flesh was never intended to be God's Salvation, otherwise it would have been impossible for Adam and Eve to be tempted by that old serpent. Yet the sin by Adam and Eve imparted to all born in the flesh had to happen, otherwise Christ's preordained coming to die on the cross would have been needless. All these factors must be understood to proper grasp just what happened with Adam and Even in God's Garden of Eden.

In Romans 7, Apostle really nails this matter of sin down, as he defined two warring factions, a war between our flesh body of sin vs. our spirit. He then declares that only Jesus Christ can free us from this body of death. Thus Paul pointed to our flesh as being one of the main factors for our sins during this present world time, all its wants and lusts, and groanings, often prevent us from doing what our spirit desires to do in following Christ. Understanding this in contrast to Adam and Eve's flesh shows their position in God's Garden before the sin was still a setup. They could never be perfect in their flesh, as the 'seed' of sin was already in their flesh, allowing them to be tempted toward sin. It had to happen too, otherwise Christ's coming to die on the cross for the remission of sins by those who believe would mean nothing otherwise. By this the concept of original sin, per God's Word, is easily understood.

You are accusing God of ensuring that Adam sinned. That's something I will never agree with.

Paul's dilemma does not apply to unbelievers. They have a dead spirit, so sin is not a problem for most people. There is no battle. The flesh is king.

The seed of sin could not have been in Adam's flesh. Sin is evil. Adam was neutral. He was not deceived as Eve was. He made a choice to ally himself to Satan. He could have rejected Satan's offer and chosen the tree of life instead. The fact that God knew what would happen is irrelevant.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Jesus chose to live a sinless life, those that die as infants or born with severe mental diabilities live sinless lives.

In Romans 7, Paul takes responsibility for his own sinning..... Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

Again, the Bible shows for one to be a sinner, there must be a law and a accountable person must transgress that law. This is what Paul is describing in Romans 7:15, that he is a sinner due to his own choices in giving in to temptation and sinning. Nowhere does he ascribe his sinning to Adam or some sin nature he was born with. Such would have made him a passive, innocent victim of sin and not a guilty, willful perpetrator and he could not be justly held accountable for sins that he was forced to do by a physical nature he was born with against his will.

Furthermore, the context of Romans 7 disproves the idea of total depravity, for Paul is describing himself as one who knows the law, who delights in the law of God and strives to keep the law/do good.....this does NOT describe total depraved person.

Romans 5:12 does NOT say "for that all have passively, unconditonally inherited Adam's sin'. That idea is being read into the verse. It does say "for that all have sinned" which shows peronal culpability in having choosen to sin/transgress God's law.

Paul was describing one who is saved, not an unsaved person. If unsaved people had a conviction of sin, then the Holy Spirit would be out of a job, in evangelism at least.

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Adam's descendants have Adam's fallen nature. It's that simple. How could they not? And empirically demonstrable human behaviour proves the point.

 

[coffee4u]

There was sin in the world before the law of Moses but it was not original sin. Romans 5:14 as you cite says "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
If eveyone inherited Adam's sin then all would be guilty of the same exact sin. Yet Rom 5:14 speaks of those who sinned sins DIFFERENT from Adam. Sin reigned in Sodom for a sin they committed that was different from Adam's. Hence people died as a result from their OWN sin they committed not due to any sin they passively inherited from Adam... Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins.." NOT being dead in Adam's sin.

You keep arguing about Adam's sin. No one is saying we inherited his sin. Original Sin is not Adams sin. When he sinned his inner nature changed, we inherited this changed nature. The propensity to sin.

Propensity: An inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.

 

[1213]

...My view is that there is a great deal of support for the idea that people are born sinners. Much of Romans 5 can be seen as supporting the concept of original sin.

Let's allow that the doctrine of Original Sin is incorrect or at least, not proven. It still leaves humanity with an insoluble problem. ...

...Now God warned Adam that he would die. Please note that God did not say, "Adam, I will kill you". Adam did not die physically. His soul did not die. He could still think, feel and choose. So what did God mean? .....

I have understood sin means person rejects God, or lives disconnected from God. Adam and Eve rejected God and were expelled to this first death. Because of that, we are born in separation from God (sin). I think that is the correct meaning of original sin. It is the first rejection of God, which resulted that we are also separated from God. Luckily God has made it possible to get the connection back.

And, God told Adam “…for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.” (Gen. 2:17), if we look for example Young’s literal translation. I think the meaning was, by death they shall die and this world is actually the first death where people slowly die. Adam and Eve lasted longer than modern people, but this “life” is actually just dying. The process takes about 80 years for us, but eventually almost all bodies are dead.

Nice thing is that God has prepared a way back to life for those who are righteous.

"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matt. 7:13-14

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14

 

[Aussie Pete]

I have understood sin means person rejects God, or lives disconnected from God. Adam and Eve rejected God and were expelled to this first death. Because of that, we are born in separation from God (sin). I think that is the correct meaning of original sin. It is the first rejection of God, which resulted that we are also separated from God. Luckily God has made it possible to get the connection back.

And, God told Adam “…for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.” (Gen. 2:17), if we look for example Young’s literal translation. I think the meaning was, by death they shall die and this world is actually the first death where people slowly die. Adam and Eve lasted longer than modern people, but this “life” is actually just dying. The process takes about 80 years for us, but eventually almost all bodies are dead.

Nice thing is that God has prepared a way back to life for those who are righteous.

"Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matt. 7:13-14

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14

"In the day.... you shall surely die". Death is not the end of existence. Man died spiritually, i.e. he was separated from God. That is the first death. The second death will occur after the judgement. Man will have no opportunity to repent and accept Christ, which makes us alive to God. Jesus said that He came that we might have life. Why? Because we are born dead in trespass and sin.

 

[Davy]

You are accusing God of ensuring that Adam sinned. That's something I will never agree with.

I'm not accusing God. It was not our Heavenly Father's fault that He placed this present world earth age in bondage to corruption.

It's evident you don't understand what Apostle Paul was talking about in Romans 8:18-25 about God placing this present world in bondage to corruption, nor that the very first sin against Him was in the previous world earth age by Satan.

Many brethren like yourself don't understand God's Word when it points to a previous world earth age before Adam and Eve when Satan followed God and was perfect in his ways (Ezekiel 28; Ezekiel 31).

Like Apostle John said, the devil sinned from the beginning, and that is how death became a part of this present world earth age associated with the flesh. But in the world to come, after Satan, hell and the wicked go into the future "lake of fire", like Revelation 21 teaches, there will be no more death. Lord Jesus was sent not just to conquer death for us, but also the one who has the power of death, the devil (Hebrews 2:14-15).

So Adam and Eve just being made flesh was into a state of corrupted flesh, for like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

But today, many are being lied to about the flesh so that they tend to think flesh is part of Christ's salvation. It is not our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus, it is our spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not accusing God. It was not our Heavenly Father's fault that He placed this present world earth age in bondage to corruption.

It's evident you don't understand what Apostle Paul was talking about in Romans 8:18-25 about God placing this present world in bondage to corruption, nor that the very first sin against Him was in the previous world earth age by Satan.

Many brethren like yourself don't understand God's Word when it points to a previous world earth age before Adam and Eve when Satan followed God and was perfect in his ways (Ezekiel 28; Ezekiel 31).

Like Apostle John said, the devil sinned from the beginning, and that is how death became a part of this present world earth age associated with the flesh. But in the world to come, after Satan, hell and the wicked go into the future "lake of fire", like Revelation 21 teaches, there will be no more death. Lord Jesus was sent not just to conquer death for us, but also the one who has the power of death, the devil (Hebrews 2:14-15).

So Adam and Eve just being made flesh was into a state of corrupted flesh, for like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

But today, many are being lied to about the flesh so that they tend to think flesh is part of Christ's salvation. It is not our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus, it is our spirit.

I'm curious about the term "earth age" that you are using. What does that mean to you? I may be obvious, but few view it that way. I understand what most call "eternity" to be an age to come.