Origin of Praying To Saints

[Ainesis]

But it still doesn't matter.

Tobit is not a Bible book, and even if we take both the Tobit verse and the passage from Revelation at face value, neither says anything at all about praying to saints--our topic!

My point precisely.

the related question, "When and why did this practice start?" (as posed in this thread as "Origin of Praying to Saints")

So, what do you consider theorigins to be?

 

[Ainesis]

Revelation says that those in Heaven are praying,

Where is this?

 

[Albion]

My point precisely.

So, what do you consider the origins to be?

A good guess that has been offered by historians is that, gradually, remembrance and honor of departed colleagues turned into a folk practice akin to the previous pagan Roman practice of invoking lesser deities for all kinds of favors. The Gentile peoples of the Empire who were converted to Christianity had been familiar with that very common practice and made an improper comparison.

On the other hand, and in the several threads now running on the subject, I have been keeping an eye out for some other explanation. So far, it has yielded nothing more than a verse or two from the Apocrypha which certainly were not read by the early Christians as a reason for the practice, or "God led them to do it" (or words to that effect). In other words, the wait goes on.

 

[Ainesis]

I have heard that there are inscriptions on ancient tombs of early Christians resembling prayers being offered to those who were deceased. Have you heard of such?

 

[Albion]

I have heard that there are inscriptions on ancient tombs of early Christians resembling prayers being offered to those who were deceased. Have you heard of such?

I'm not familiar with them. It would be interesting to read the verses.

 

[Borealis]

Tobit is not a Bible book, and even if we take both the Tobit verse and the passage from Revelation at face value, neither says anything at all about praying to saints--our topic!

Tobit is not a PROTESTANT Bible book. It was always a Catholic Bible book. Don't blame us for your forefathers' editing decisions.

As to when the practice of praying to saints started, I'd venture to say that it was right after people started going to heaven, i.e., the first martyrs for the faith.

 

[cristoiglesia]

I have heard that there are inscriptions on ancient tombs of early Christians resembling prayers being offered to those who were deceased. Have you heard of such?

I have been in the Catacombs in Rome and have seen the inscriptions. I have also been to tombs in Syria and have also seen inscriptions there. It was evidently a common practice among early Christians.
Here is a URL with more information.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08042a.htm

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[Albion]

"Here is a URL with more information."

The URL, a Roman Catholic site, seems to verify what has been said here already, i.e. a pagan carryover. Also, no indication of the earliest Christians praying to saints.

There is mention of the saint's name and of prayers TO GOD about the deceased.

 

[cristoiglesia]

"Here is a URL with more information."

The URL, a Roman Catholic site, seems to verify what has been said here already, i.e. a pagan carryover. Also, no indication of the earliest Christians praying to saints.

There is mention of the saint's name and of prayers TO GOD about the deceased.

I provided a Roman Catholic site because they are less likely to have incorrect information as Protestant sites. Yes, Pagans also made inscriptions on tombs of their dead. There is no indications that Christians did so to imitate Pagans except to give some honor to their departed loved ones. In this way Pagans and Christians would be similarly motivated. At the website there is clear evidence of the Saints militant praying for God's mercy on the Saints Triumphant.

I still do not understand why anyone would argue against Saints praying and petitioning God for each other. Of all the crazy Protestant doctrines this is one of the craziest, IMHO. Thank God there are so few Protestants who refuse to pray for others and to show Christian love in this way. It is possible that we have them all in this forum. What is the origin of this ridiculous belief. I suspect it is very modern in origin, probably Anabaptist?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[Albion]

I still do not understand

Gave honor to their dead in inscriptions, OK. That's not prayer to saints.

On the Website, it is claimed that early Christians prayed TO GOD. There is nothing indicating that they PRAYED TO THE DECEASED.

Understand better now?.

 

[cristoiglesia]

Gave honor to their dead in inscriptions, OK. That's not prayer to saints.

On the Website, it is claimed that early Christians prayed TO GOD. There is nothing indicating that they PRAYED TO THE DECEASED.

Understand better now?.

Of course not, there is no dead in Christ among the Saints. It is hard to understand things that defy logic. Why can we pray only to God for ourselves? Is there some reason that we can not pray for others and have them pray to us that is reasonable or based on some kind of intellectual logic?

Just wondering how you reason through your doctrine?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[HisKid1973]

T
As to when the practice of praying to saints started, I'd venture to say that it was right after people started going to heaven, i.e., the first martyrs for the faith.

Yes , When Stephen was stoned would have been the best place to learn about praying to the saints.. I didn,t notice it being brought up afterwards..Pax..Kim

 

[isshinwhat]

It appears that you have said that 2nd Maccabees is your source. You mention no other. Is that not so?

A source, yes, my only source, no. I have mentioned Tobit, 2 Maccabees, Revelation, and Hebrews that I can recall right off the top of my head during our discussion.

"Guidance of the Holy Spirit." Got any evidence that this is the answer? Or does it just fit any question? How about historical evidence that it always WAS practiced? The testimony of a writer from the first years of church history? A passage in the New Testament describing it? Something??

If one were to look at the Dogma of the Trinity, one would see that it has developed as the Church gleins more insight into its ramifications. For instance, read through any of the Church Fathers throughout the first couple of hundred years and you will be hard pressed to find anything and precise as the use of the word homoousia, yet we know it is the orthodox faith.

The same is true with prayer to Saints. You state:

I wonder if we should start to keep score on all the evasions of the question that are offered. For example, we have...

Saints pray to God.

Saints pray to God about us.

God hears prayers.

Saints may pray for us.

We should respect and honor saints.

Saints once were like us.

Saints are alive.

The Church has named various people as saints.


BUT,

none of those comments answers the question, "Should we pray to saints?"

I wish I could give you my eyes that you could see that what you call evasions are clues to the thread which answers your question. What allows them to pray for us, what allows them to offer our prayers to the Father, what makes them alive is what allows us to ask for their intercession; namely union with Christ: One Body. Theology is not something where the part is not related to the whole. I could show you the progression in understanding, but would you not just call it innovation and write it off?

Saying "God did it" really isn't an answer...or if it is, every last denomination and cult is entitled to say the same thing...

As Martin Luther said, "I do not admit that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even by the angels. He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved." Every man now believes himself to be his own Pope.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

Why is Rev. 5:8 assumed to be passed saints? That certainly is not evident from the text.

The 5th Chapter states that the elders present in the vision surround the Lamb in Heaven.

Revelation 5:6-9
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

No where do we see that these are the prayers of those who have departed. Nor do we see that these are prayers offered to the angels. It could very well be the prayers of the saints on earth being presented to God.

The Angel in Chapter 8 is, like St. Raphael in Tobit, offering "the prayers of all the Saints" to God. Now whether you believe "all the Saints" to mean all those mentioned in Revelation 5 who are in Heaven, just those saints on Earth, or literally "all the Saints," meaning members of the Body of Christ both living and deceased, I believe that "all the saints"' means those in Heaven and on Earth. It isn't that we cannot worship God alone, it means we have the gift to worship Him as a Body.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Borealis]

Yes , When Stephen was stoned would have been the best place to learn about praying to the saints.. I didn,t notice it being brought up afterwards..Pax..Kim

A lot of things weren't included in the Bible. It's not the entirety of Christianity between two covers. It never was, and it never will be. Sola scriptura is an unworkable doctrine, a false man-made doctrine, and a logical impossibility that isn't supported by the very book you claim has all authority.

 

[Pac Shady]

As Martin Luther said, "I do not admit that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even by the angels. He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved."

This is exactly the same thing the Papacy has said for years. What's the difference? Oh thats right, only the POPE receives the Holy Spirit in full, so he can give full interpretation. Apparently, the rest of us only get a mini Holy Spirit, or maybe offspring of the Holy Spirit, maybe Him and Mary kept having kids in Heaven, since they're married and all. Or maybe we're not as worthy as the Pope is, maybe we're somehow more scum than he is. Maybe God doesn't love us as much as he loves the Pope.

'Shady

 

[Borealis]

This is exactly the same thing the Papacy has said for years. What's the difference? Oh thats right, only the POPE receives the Holy Spirit in full, so he can give full interpretation. Apparently, the rest of us only get a mini Holy Spirit, or maybe offspring of the Holy Spirit, maybe Him and Mary kept having kids in Heaven, since they're married and all. Or maybe we're not as worthy as the Pope is, maybe we're somehow more scum than he is. Maybe God doesn't love us as much as he loves the Pope.

'Shady

The Pope does not come up with doctrine on a whim, Holy Spirit or not. Councils such as Vatican II are not spur-of-the-moment things. Vatican II was a four-year council; Trent was basically a whole generation long. It is the bishops, in concert with the Pope, discussing the issues for a long, long time and praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So no, not only the POPE receives the Holy Spirit in full; the entire Magisterium is instrumental in determining the correct interpretation of scripture and the deposit of faith.

Your contempt for Catholic beliefs is extremely un-Christian, and not worthy of this discussion. Your insults to the Pope, Mary, and God in this post show a lack of charity and willingness to learn.

 

[Pac Shady]

Give me one example when I have insulted God or Mary? Come on, just one! Your utter contempt for the Protestant churches sickens me.

'Shady

 

[Albion]

Your contempt for Catholic beliefs is extremely un-Christian, and not worthy of this discussion. Your insults to the Pope, Mary, and God in this post show a lack of charity and willingness to learn.

What exactly was he supposed to learn from that? That if the head of the Roman Catholic church takes awhile and uses consultants that he's endowed with infallibility? That's a profession of blind faith, not an explanation geared to teaching anything. And as for the idea that the Pope comes up with dogma "on a whim," that's what you said, not him.