Origin of Praying To Saints

[dignitized]

Elisha was promised a double portion of Elijah's Spirit by God.

Elijah did 7 miracles. Elisha did 13 before he died.

and scripture records that he did at least one Miracle AFTER he died.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Farmer, below, gives the impression that early believers set out to pray for the souls of saints but became confused and started praying to saints.

Farmer is a bit confused himself. We don't pray to saints, we ask them to pray for us. The answer to your question can be seen by the following reasoning.

Christ told us to pray for one another. So the Apostles asked each other to pray for them. As they returned to Glory, those remaining hear on Earth continued to ask them to pray for us.

As another example: When I was at my mothers knee (yes, my mother is a saint) I would ask her to pray for me. When I grew up and moved far away, I did not stop asking her to pray for me. Now that she is alive in heaven with Christ, I don't see any reason whatsoever to stop asking her to pray for me.

Scripture tells us that the "prayer of a righteous man avails much." Heaven if full of the righteous and they are praying constantly. I need all the help I can get, so I ask all of the righteous, both here and above, to pray for me.

I have a prayer request. I ask all the angles and saints, and all of you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord Our God.

Of course, I really do believe that they are alive in heaven. If you think that is a myth and they are just dust, then it would seem as foolishness to you.

 

[Lotar]

I pray to Saints. I feel no need to water down and qualify my language to satisfy those who willfully abandon the faith of the Apostles for the philosophies of men.

 

[dignitized]

Lotar: do you believe that the saints answer your prayers of their own volition then?

 

[livingproofGM]

Lotar: do you believe that the saints answer your prayers of their own volition then?

The saints ask the Lord to grant our prayers.

 

[dignitized]

The saints ask the Lord to grant our prayers.

I'm looking for lotor to explain his statement

 

[livingproofGM]

I'm looking for lotor to explain his statement

Just thought I'd jump in...You never saw me...*scurries from room, unnoticed*

 

[Lotar]

I'm looking for lotor to explain his statement

Do you mean, do they answer our prayers through their own natural powers? If so, I would say no. If you mean do they answer our prayers by their will, I would say yes.

Everything is by the grace of God, even them hearing our prayers is do to their union with Christ. They interceed for us, and they work miracles, just as they did on earth.

 

[Kepha]

I take this as a command not to answer anymore of Julie's posts

I would actually like to see her keep going. She is making herself look like quite the fool spitting verses out she doesnt even understand. Your creating quite the reputation for yourself julie.

 

[Dale]

On talking to dead people, take the following famous Old Testament passage:


3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart.6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today.19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

--1 Samuel 28:3-20 NIV



Tradition has always held that King Saul committed the gravest possible sin in using a medium, even a witch, to bring up the soul of Samuel. Saul did the will of God in driving out the mediums but fell into grave error in consulting one himself. He certainly knew nothing of praying to, or with, the deceased Samuel, or communing with him without the aid of a medium.

If Catholic practice is right, then King Saul would be praised for seeking the advice of the deceased Prophet, Samuel.

The issue is not whether Samuel qualified as a saint, but whether anyone should speak to, or with, dead people.

If it is perfectly normal to talk to dead people, as Catholics claim, then why did Saul commit such a grave sin by doing just that?

 

[Dale]

isshinwhat in post #173:
<< A source, yes, my only source, no. I have mentioned Tobit, 2 Maccabees, Revelation, and Hebrews that I can recall right off the top of my head during our discussion >>

You misunderstand the passages in Revelation and Hebrews by assuming that the word "saint" in the New Testament means a Christian who is deceased, passed to the next world. This is very rarely how the term is used in the NT, as I've tried to explain.

1&2 Maccabees were accepted as canonical by the RCC at the Council of Trent in 1546. If Maccabees were a genuine holy book it could not possibly have taken the RCC that long to place it in scripture. I believe that the same is true of Tobit, it was accepted at the same time, a very recent addition as the Biblical canon goes.

If you take the Book of Tobit seriously, you would have to believe that burning fish liver is the correct way to get rid of demons. I guess the Rite of Exorcism wouldn't be needed.

Scholarly opinion on Tobit:
"The author wrote to inculcate respect for the dead, consanguineous marriages, and practical virtues such as almsgiving." --Encyclopedia Brittannica, 1946, under Tobit

In other words, the author of Tobit did not claim to know how God receives prayers or any such thing.

"The popularity of Tobit in the ancient world is "shown by the multiplicity of versions and editions which have survived." --same source

 

[NPH]

Tradition has always held that King Saul committed the gravest possible sin in using a medium, even a witch, to bring up the soul of Samuel. Saul did the will of God in driving out the mediums but fell into grave error in consulting one himself. He certainly knew nothing of praying to, or with, the deceased Samuel, or communing with him without the aid of a medium.

If Catholic practice is right, then King Saul would be praised for seeking the advice of the deceased Prophet, Samuel.

The issue is not whether Samuel qualified as a saint, but whether anyone should speak to, or with, dead people.

If it is perfectly normal to talk to dead people, as Catholics claim, then why did Saul commit such a grave sin by doing just that?

Asking saints for prayer and intercession is not using mediums to conjure up the spirits of the deceased so we can have a one-on-one chat with them. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here or just do not know what Catholic doctrine actually is. Either way, the analogy fails since the story of Saul in this case has absolutely nothing to do with the prayers of the Saints in Heaven.

The second portion that I bolded highlights your misunderstanding. We do not 'talk' to the Saints in Heaven (who, btw, are not 'dead people' but more fully alive than we ourselves are) but rather request that they pray to God for us ... we do not expect to hear their voices saying "Ok, i'll be praying for you!"

 

[NPH]

1&2 Maccabees were accepted as canonical by the RCC at the Council of Trent in 1546. If Maccabees were a genuine holy book it could not possibly have taken the RCC that long to place it in scripture. I believe that the same is true of Tobit, it was accepted at the same time, a very recent addition as the Biblical canon goes.

This statement is quite inaccurate. Both Maccabees and Tobit were in fact considered canon from at least as early as the 4th century I believe (I do not have the exact dates handy atm).

What you are describing from the Council of Trent is only where the Church found it necessary to reassert the canon of the Bible, not that it was actually establishing it at that point.

I'm sure there are posters who can better explain what I am speaking of here (such as the reasons for the reassertion of these canonical books), but you would be well served to research the topic a little better.

 

[lmnop9876]

if the only reason not to ask physically dead saints for their prayers is that their bodies are dead and in the grave, then there is no sin in asking Enoch and Elijah for their prayers?

 

[NPH]

If you take the Book of Tobit seriously, you would have to believe that burning fish liver is the correct way to get rid of demons. I guess the Rite of Exorcism wouldn't be needed.

If you take the book of Acts seriously, you would have to believe that handkerchiefs and aprons touched by Paul are all that is needed to heal disease and get rid of demons. I guess Doctors and the Rite of Exorcism and even burning fish liver wouldn't be needed.

Acts 19:11-12 "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"

Or perhaps, there is more than one way to accomplish many things

 

[NPH]

if the only reason not to ask physically dead saints for their prayers is that their bodies are dead and in the grave, then there is no sin in asking Enoch and Elijah for their prayers?

Even if someone used that as the reason to think it was wrong (bodies dead and in the grave) there would still be the exception of Moses at the very least. Even though it is recorded in the Bible that he did in fact die and was buried we also saw him very fully alive with Jesus in Matthew 17.

 

[isshinwhat]

If it is perfectly normal to talk to dead people, as Catholics claim, then why did Saul commit such a grave sin by doing just that?

Divination, which is what the Bible prohibits, is "a foreseeing or foretelling of future events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by preternatural means," thus placing your trust outside of God (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.) This is not what we do when we ask saints for their prayers.

In this example, Saul does not go to Samuel in holy prayer as a brother in the Lord, with confidence in God's answering his request, instead he went to a medium to divine the future, showing his distrust and turning from God. 1 Samuel says, "...when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, 'Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.' "

As was said before, divination is "The act of divining; a foreseeing or foretelling of future events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by preternatural means." Our prayers to Saints are not turns away from God, as was Saul's journey into divination, they are, instead, acts of faith in God who we believe overcame death and has given us the greatest gift, eternal life and participation in the Body of Christ.

I hope it can now be clearly seen that Saul's divination and the Catholic/Coptic/Orthodox practice of asking Saints for prayer are completely different in form and intent.

May all the Saints of the Lord pray for us!

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

You misunderstand the passages in Revelation and Hebrews by assuming that the word "saint" in the New Testament means a Christian who is deceased, passed to the next world. This is very rarely how the term is used in the NT, as I've tried to explain.

I understand clearly, and I have stated before, a saint is a member of the Body of Christ. I make no distinction whether a saint is in Heaven or on Earth with regard to the title.

1&2 Maccabees were accepted as canonical by the RCC at the Council of Trent in 1546. If Maccabees were a genuine holy book it could not possibly have taken the RCC that long to place it in scripture. I believe that the same is true of Tobit, it was accepted at the same time, a very recent addition as the Biblical canon goes.

Here are the relevent passages from 3 Councils/Synods which predate Trent by over 1000 years. Your information is incorrect.

"Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun.The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paraleipomenon two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book,Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books, Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books. Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book. The Epistles of Paul [the apostle] in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Phillipians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one. Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle."
Pope Damasus(regn A.D. 366-384),Decree of,Council of Rome,The Canon of Scripture(A.D. 382),in DEN,33

"Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read, in the church under the title of divine writings.'. The canonical books are:---Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two books of Paraleipomena(Chronicles), Job, the Psalms of David, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the (Minor) Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament are:---the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of S. Paul, one Epistle of S. Paul to the Hebrews, two Epistles of S. Peter, three Epistles of S. John, the Epistle of S. James, the Epistle of S. Jude, the Revelation of S. John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the transmarine Church shall be consulted."
Council of Hippo, Canon 36 (A.D. 393), in HCC,2:400

"[It has been decided] that nothing except the Canonical Scriptures should be read in the church under the name of the Divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are:Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paraleipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John."
Council of Carthage III,Canon 47(A.D. 397),in DEN,39-40

f you take the Book of Tobit seriously, you would have to believe that burning fish liver is the correct way to get rid of demons.

I also believe relics, such as Paul's handkerchief (as recorded in Acts) can drive away demons and heal people. Such practices can be exorcisms, just as the Prayer to St. Michael is an exorcism; they wage spiritual warfare on demons, but they are both different from the Rite of Exocrism.

Scholarly opinion on Tobit:
"The author wrote to inculcate respect for the dead, consanguineous marriages, and practical virtues such as almsgiving." --Encyclopedia Brittannica, 1946, under Tobit

In other words, the author of Tobit did not claim to know how God receives prayers or any such thing.

The popularity of Tobit in the ancient world is "shown by the multiplicity of versions and editions which have survived." --same source

You know what they say about opinions... Again, one author's opinion about the primary focus of a certain book does not negate a different opinion by another scholar. Nothing in that gentleman's opinion is contrary to mine or the Catholic Faith. Your claim that "...the author of Tobit did not claim to know how God receives prayers," cannot be gleined from your source in any way. If I say a Volkswagen comes in red and green, that does not mean that it does not also come in black and gray.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[azzy]

Well,what do I know,but why would anyone even want to pray to a saint,when God is able to hear you himself?


Why wouldnt you believe he was enough,and why would you think that Christ wasnt enough?

And why would anyone pray to a saint,when it isnt in the bible?

When we have the Holy Spirit himself to interceed for us,why would that not be enough,and why add to that praying to saints?

Isnt adding the doctrine of praying to saints,adding to Gods word?Since the bible doesnt say to do it,why include it in church practice?

 

[NPH]

Well,what do I know,but why would anyone even want to pray to a saint,when God is able to hear you himself?


Why wouldnt you believe he was enough,and why would you think that Christ wasnt enough?

And why would anyone pray to a saint,when it isnt in the bible?

When we have the Holy Spirit himself to interceed for us,why would that not be enough,and why add to that praying to saints?

Isnt adding the doctrine of praying to saints,adding to Gods word?Since the bible doesnt say to do it,why include it in church practice?

Hi azzy

It's probably been mentioned in this thread numerous times already but has likely been buried way back so i'll bring it back up for you.

To answer your first two questions and the fourth I pose a question right back ... why ask anyone to pray for you when God can hear you himself? It does say in the Bible that we should pray for one another, why cut the Saints in Heaven out of that 'prayer chain'? If anything, they are the ones praying the most! Surely we should all pray to God ourselves constantly, but we should also be praying for others and asking others to pray for us.

For your third and fifth questions you have to remember that for us Catholics it's not just 'Bible alone'. We have our Tradition that has been part of the faith since Jesus created His Church. The Bible never has been and was never meant to be a 'Handbook of Christianity'. It does have the most important aspects of our faith in it (specifically those relating to salvation) but even the Bible itself makes the claim that not everything Jesus taught could be put in it's pages. 'Bible alone' is a Protestant rule, not a Catholic (or Orthodox) rule

If you skim through the thread though, you should see where other Catholic posters have given the Scriptural references for asking for prayers from Saints.

Isnt adding the doctrine of praying to saints,adding to Gods word?Since the bible doesnt say to do it,why include it in church practice?

I see from your profile that you attend a Baptist church. The Bible doesn't say to have Altar Calls, a Sinner's Prayer, potluck dinners, business meetings, adult baptism only etc ... so why include those in church practice? Again, because the Bible is not a 'Handbook' and there is nothing wrong with practices such as those that are either fruitful or necessary in the operation of the church

What it all boils down to is this: Are those in Heaven alive or dead? If they are alive then they are certainly praying for all of us still here on Earth and there can be nothing wrong with asking them to pray for us individually. If you believe they are dead however, and are no longer part of the Body of Christ, then God's Kingdom is a kingdom of Death and the dead