Origin of Life research update

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Did i miss the part in this where it shows Miller's experiment has been falsified?
Did you miss the part that says it is of no consequence? People are still pursuing OOL research, mostly based on Miller's ideas. The whole concept of falsification is meaningless anyway. The fact that evolution cannot be falsified makes no difference to evolutionists. They carry on regardless.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Did i miss the part in this where it shows Miller's experiment has been falsified?
The concept of falsification is much overrated. Scientists conveniently ignore this when it suits them.

Source: "Simply Psychology" article by Dr Saul McLeod (an extract) https://www.simplypsychology.org/Karl-Popper.html

"Popper's astute formulations of logical procedure helped to reign in the excessive use of inductive speculation upon inductive speculation, and also helped to strengthen the conceptual foundation for today's peer review procedures.

However, the history of science gives little indication of having followed anything like a methodological falsificationist approach. Indeed, and as many studies have shown, scientists of the past (and still today) tended to be reluctant to give up theories that we would have to call falsified in the methodological sense; and very often it turned out that they were correct to do so (seen from our later perspective).

The history of science shows that sometimes it is best to ’stick to one’s guns’. For example, "In the early years of its life, Newton’s gravitational theory was falsified by observations of the moon’s orbit"

Also, one observation does not falsify a theory. The experiment may have been badly designed, data could be incorrect.

Quine states that a theory is not a single statement; it is a complex network (a collection of statements). You might falsify one statement (e.g. all swans are white) in the network, but this should not mean you should reject the whole complex theory.

Critics of Karl Popper, chiefly Thomas Kuhn, Paul Feyerabend, and Imre Lakatos, rejected the idea that there exists a single method that applies to all science and could account for its progress."
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The concept of falsification is much overrated. Scientists conveniently ignore this when it suits them.

Source: "Simply Psychology" article by Dr Saul McLeod (an extract) https://www.simplypsychology.org/Karl-Popper.html

"Popper's astute formulations of logical procedure helped to reign in the excessive use of inductive speculation upon inductive speculation, and also helped to strengthen the conceptual foundation for today's peer review procedures.

However, the history of science gives little indication of having followed anything like a methodological falsificationist approach. Indeed, and as many studies have shown, scientists of the past (and still today) tended to be reluctant to give up theories that we would have to call falsified in the methodological sense; and very often it turned out that they were correct to do so (seen from our later perspective).

The history of science shows that sometimes it is best to ’stick to one’s guns’. For example, "In the early years of its life, Newton’s gravitational theory was falsified by observations of the moon’s orbit"

Also, one observation does not falsify a theory. The experiment may have been badly designed, data could be incorrect.

Quine states that a theory is not a single statement; it is a complex network (a collection of statements). You might falsify one statement (e.g. all swans are white) in the network, but this should not mean you should reject the whole complex theory.

Critics of Karl Popper, chiefly Thomas Kuhn, Paul Feyerabend, and Imre Lakatos, rejected the idea that there exists a single method that applies to all science and could account for its progress."


If only the field had developed further, we could refer to a newer ground breaking experiment more recent than 68 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Miller Experiment Still Sells Building Blocks of Lie – CEH Fun fact. Lee Strobel (yes, that one) was a student and became an atheist as a result of this research.

Lee Strobel? Funner fact: He currently serves as Founding Director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University.
51mVHo6IjsL.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Lee Strobel? Funner fact: He currently serves as Founding Director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University.
51mVHo6IjsL.jpg
As I thought I said, Atheist no more. Except that somehow got left out. Did he not write, "The case for Christ"? I've not read it. I don't need any more convincing!
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
If only the field had developed further, we could refer to a newer ground breaking experiment more recent than 68 years ago.
The field cannot develop further because it is a dead end. I suggest you check out Prof James Tour. He's done in depth critique of OOL research, past and present.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Did you miss the part that says it is of no consequence?
That would be an opinion not evidence of anything about the experiment

The fact that you bring it up says that it is of consequence.
People are still pursuing OOL research, mostly based on Miller's ideas.
which shows that his work was of consequence.

The whole concept of falsification is meaningless anyway. The fact that evolution cannot be falsified makes no difference to evolutionists. They carry on regardless.
of course theory of evolution can be falsified, it's just dishonest to pretend it can't be.

When asked what would disprove evolution, the biologist J. B. S. Haldand said: “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian”.
Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way and evolution is falsified.
A mammal with feathers would falsify evolution.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
The concept of falsification is much overrated. Scientists conveniently ignore this when it suits them.
[ you mean like how creationists ignore the fact that evolution can be falsified?



Source: "Simply Psychology" article by Dr Saul McLeod (an extract) https://www.simplypsychology.org/Karl-Popper.html

"Popper's astute formulations of logical procedure helped to reign in the excessive use of inductive speculation upon inductive speculation, and also helped to strengthen the conceptual foundation for today's peer review procedures.

However, the history of science gives little indication of having followed anything like a methodological falsificationist approach. Indeed, and as many studies have shown, scientists of the past (and still today) tended to be reluctant to give up theories that we would have to call falsified in the methodological sense; and very often it turned out that they were correct to do so (seen from our later perspective).

The history of science shows that sometimes it is best to ’stick to one’s guns’. For example, "In the early years of its life, Newton’s gravitational theory was falsified by observations of the moon’s orbit"

Also, one observation does not falsify a theory. The experiment may have been badly designed, data could be incorrect.

Quine states that a theory is not a single statement; it is a complex network (a collection of statements). You might falsify one statement (e.g. all swans are white) in the network, but this should not mean you should reject the whole complex theory.

Critics of Karl Popper, chiefly Thomas Kuhn, Paul Feyerabend, and Imre Lakatos, rejected the idea that there exists a single method that applies to all science and could account for its progress."

Miller conducted an experiment. You are talking, for some reason, about theories.

The simple fact is that Miller's experiment has not been falsified. It has however been replicated dozens of times showing it wasn't irreparably flawed or badly designed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
The field cannot develop further because it is a dead end. I suggest you check out Prof James Tour. He's done in depth critique of OOL research, past and present.
"I have been labeled as an Intelligent Design (sometimes called “ID”) proponent. I am not." James Tour Aug 2019
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
"I have been labeled as an Intelligent Design (sometimes called “ID”) proponent. I am not." James Tour Aug 2019
Exactly. Professor Tour destroys OOL theory on a purely scientific basis. He deliberately keeps his faith and his analysis of OOL research separate.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Miller repeated his experiment. Failed.
I looked for follow up research that built on the original. Nothing.
I looked for advances built on the original studies, none.
how about the studies the OP link talks about?
From your link: "Bada discovered that the reactions were producing chemicals called nitrites, which destroy amino acids as quickly as they form. They were also turning the water acidic—which prevents amino acids from forming. Yet primitive Earth would have contained iron and carbonate minerals that neutralized nitrites and acids. So Bada added chemicals to the experiment to duplicate these functions. When he reran it, he still got the same watery liquid as Miller did in 1983, but this time it was chock-full of amino acids."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Exactly. Professor Tour destroys OOL theory on a purely scientific basis. He deliberately keeps his faith and his analysis of OOL research separate.
"we are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." isn't destroying anything
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
"we are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." isn't destroying anything
You have not mentioned OOL. I am reminded constantly by evolutionists that OOL and evolution are not the same. Perhaps you could quote what Jim Tour has to say about OOL? I've seen many of his presentations. He is scathing of the research.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
how about the studies the OP link talks about?
From your link: "Bada discovered that the reactions were producing chemicals called nitrites, which destroy amino acids as quickly as they form. They were also turning the water acidic—which prevents amino acids from forming. Yet primitive Earth would have contained iron and carbonate minerals that neutralized nitrites and acids. So Bada added chemicals to the experiment to duplicate these functions. When he reran it, he still got the same watery liquid as Miller did in 1983, but this time it was chock-full of amino acids."
But no breakthrough results? Why are we even discussing Millers experiment after he tried and failed to replicate the work he did? Because science is desperate for answers and they fell for it one time too many.

Other than Millers (ancient) experiment, which he failed to replicate himself, there is no news worthy to swallow.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
You have not mentioned OOL. I am reminded constantly by evolutionists that OOL and evolution are not the same. Perhaps you could quote what Jim Tour has to say about OOL? I've seen many of his presentations. He is scathing of the research.
You seem to be a fan. So go ahead
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SilverBear

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
7,359
3,297
57
Michigan
✟166,106.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
But no breakthrough results? Why are we even discussing Millers experiment after he tried and failed to replicate the work he did? Because science is desperate for answers and they fell for it one time too many.

Other than Millers (ancient) experiment, which he failed to replicate himself, there is no news worthy to swallow.
as your link noted the attempt Miller did at replication was based on incomplete data about conditions at that point in time. Bada corrected that and....what do you know ...replicated Miller's results. As for results Wikipedia seems to list a good handful.
 
Upvote 0