Origin of human soul

[juvenissun]

This is exactly the case according to the view I was talking about with you earlier. If the soul comes from the parents, God does not need to presently create each soul that comes into being. Either way the physical body is not directly, presently created by God, which again is why I assume the same for the soul.


There is also something that keeps nagging me about your model. It seems unbiblical. Angels are portrayed as in a sense already 'promoted' above that of the human race, and that implies angels and humans co - exist on earth, not the the former becomes the latter.


It's not a Biblical model for certain. On that basis alone it's insufficient. That is the mistake. You may say it answers those questions but for me your view leaves me with a few other questions unanswered.

First, angel is angel, human is human. Even in the Heaven, they are clearly different. So, if human goes to the Heaven after death as a "soul", then whatever the nature of angel is, it should not be described by the same name "soul". As a result, if angel "incarnates" as the soul of human, it does not mean the angel is a "pre-existed" soul of human. Before the incarnation of angel, the angel has its unique identity and it is not a pre-existed human. A human soul is a brand new spirit of that person.

The process of "incarnation" (it is not the correct term, but it is the closest one) of angel to human is basically blind and random. Angels who do this has no preference and no choice. They just "go". As I repeated, an angel would have a pretty good chance to end in hell by doing this. That is why not all angels want to take the risk. God can identify a particular angel (or even sent a particular angel) when "it" becomes a particular person (Jer 1:5).

Each human being has his unique talent, weakness, and personality. Why is it so? Science might try to use genetics to answer the question. But I think that is a hopeless approach because personality develops with many external factors. However, science may be right to hit the origin of human personality. A human fetus possesses his unique character at the very beginning. This basic pattern of personality will not change during the later life-time development. And this background character usually controls the worldly achievement of that person.

The original (fundamental) personality of a person is probably determined by the nature (personality?) of the incarnated angel to that person. Scientifically, it may be expressed as the characteristic DNA of the person.

 

[Jpark]

I believe it is now time... I unveil... my trump card!

Psalm 49:20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish.

Job 32:7-9 “I thought age should speak,
And increased years should teach wisdom.
“But it is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
“The abundant in years may not be wise,
Nor may elders understand justice.

Eccl. 3:18-19 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.” For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Deut. 8:3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know,

2 Chronicles 34:27 Because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before God when you heard His words against this place and against its inhabitants, and because you humbled yourself before Me, tore your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you,” declares the LORD.

Psalm 73:22-23 When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within [Lit in my kidneys],
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.

Deut. 8:3 that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

Daniel 2:21-22 “It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
“It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.

 

[juvenissun]

I believe it is now time... I unveil... my trump card!

Psalm 49:20
Job 32:7-9
Eccl. 3:18-19
Deut. 8:3
2 Chronicles 34:27
Psalm 73:22-23
Deut. 8:3
Daniel 2:21-22

Appreciate the verse. But a stupid person like me needs a more explicit explanations.

 

[Papias]

I will now reveal.......

MY TRUMP CARD!!!



asd;jfhawfhaweufhio;ash df;jahsd;f
ahsdkjfhaliwefh aowjdfh;kjsdh;fjksdfh;
asdhf;aiwehf;iawhdfi;jsdfh'
asdhfjawheiruhawkdf
asbndjfawhpieruywuiperyhhg
klsdfppwieuksdjhwe'
kssdfpaiwefnklsadfhwjdnj
hfawujenpiofaps;djkafnwuhf
afuwnpeifawe;jf;aksdjf
awdfja.............












(a "trump card" that no one understands isn't much of a trump card....)


Papias

 

[gluadys]

Appreciate the verse. But a stupid person like me needs a more explicit explanations.

I agree. I didn't understand the "trump card" either. Guess we stupid people have to stick together, eh? juvie?

 

[elopez]

First, angel is angel, human is human. Even in the Heaven, they are clearly different. So, if human goes to the Heaven after death as a "soul", then whatever the nature of angel is, it should not be described by the same name "soul". As a result, if angel "incarnates" as the soul of human, it does not mean the angel is a "pre-existed" soul of human. Before the incarnation of angel, the angel has its unique identity and it is not a pre-existed human. A human soul is a brand new spirit of that person.

I tend to think that angels and humans are different which is obviously why I would not think that an angel becomes the soul of a human. So if a soul goes to heaven it's no longer a soul but an angel? Is that what you're saying? My contention comes with the memory of the soul we talked about earlier. You said the angels memory would remain even once it becomes the soul, right? If that is so, we could say the soul could recollect when it was an angel, which to me only means that soul was pre - existent. Even when we use the term "incarnation" to describe this whole process of angel to human soul it means the soul already existed. Think about "incarnation" in regards to Christ, as Christ existed as an incorporeal, eternal being prior to becoming man.

The process of "incarnation" (it is not the correct term, but it is the closest one) of angel to human is basically blind and random. Angels who do this has no preference and no choice. They just "go". As I repeated, an angel would have a pretty good chance to end in hell by doing this. That is why not all angels want to take the risk. God can identify a particular angel (or even sent a particular angel) when "it" becomes a particular person (Jer 1:5).

Even if it is blind and random the angel would have to know who it is "going" to, which human soul it is going to become. Are you saying God doesn't identify which angel will become which soul before it happens? Even the angel before incarnation knows which soul it will become.

Each human being has his unique talent, weakness, and personality. Why is it so? Science might try to use genetics to answer the question. But I think that is a hopeless approach because personality develops with many external factors. However, science may be right to hit the origin of human personality. A human fetus possesses his unique character at the very beginning. This basic pattern of personality will not change during the later life-time development. And this background character usually controls the worldly achievement of that person.

I don't understand how this means an angel becomes the soul of a human.

The original (fundamental) personality of a person is probably determined by the nature (personality?) of the incarnated angel to that person. Scientifically, it may be expressed as the characteristic DNA of the person.

So if the persons nature is determined by the angels this again only seems to suggest that the soul exists before "incarnation." Scientifically, I don't think there is anything to point to such a conclusion.

 

[juvenissun]

I tend to think that angels and humans are different which is obviously why I would not think that an angel becomes the soul of a human. So if a soul goes to heaven it's no longer a soul but an angel? Is that what you're saying? My contention comes with the memory of the soul we talked about earlier. You said the angels memory would remain even once it becomes the soul, right? If that is so, we could say the soul could recollect when it was an angel, which to me only means that soul was pre - existent. Even when we use the term "incarnation" to describe this whole process of angel to human soul it means the soul already existed. Think about "incarnation" in regards to Christ, as Christ existed as an incorporeal, eternal being prior to becoming man.


Even if it is blind and random the angel would have to know who it is "going" to, which human soul it is going to become. Are you saying God doesn't identify which angel will become which soul before it happens? Even the angel before incarnation knows which soul it will become.


I don't understand how this means an angel becomes the soul of a human.


So if the persons nature is determined by the angels this again only seems to suggest that the soul exists before "incarnation." Scientifically, I don't think there is anything to point to such a conclusion.

I guess that if a fetus is aborted, the soul would simply go back to the Heaven as the original angel. And I would think that particular angel could not incarnate again. That would be the only chance for it (every angel has only one chance to do that, success or not). This hypothesis could give an answer to the abortion problem in theology. Otherwise, if the soul was a brand new creation of God, then the abortion would be a direct slap on the face of God.

As far as how does an angel identify a woman to become the soul of her baby, I don’t know and I have not thought about the detail yet. But, if the idea of angel to human is supported by other arguments, then the mechanism of the process would be a relatively minor issue.

 

[juvenissun]

I tend to think that angels and humans are different which is obviously why I would not think that an angel becomes the soul of a human. So if a soul goes to heaven it's no longer a soul but an angel? Is that what you're saying? My contention comes with the memory of the soul we talked about earlier. You said the angels memory would remain even once it becomes the soul, right? If that is so, we could say the soul could recollect when it was an angel, which to me only means that soul was pre - existent. Even when we use the term "incarnation" to describe this whole process of angel to human soul it means the soul already existed. Think about "incarnation" in regards to Christ, as Christ existed as an incorporeal, eternal being prior to becoming man.


Even if it is blind and random the angel would have to know who it is "going" to, which human soul it is going to become. Are you saying God doesn't identify which angel will become which soul before it happens? Even the angel before incarnation knows which soul it will become.


I don't understand how this means an angel becomes the soul of a human.


So if the persons nature is determined by the angels this again only seems to suggest that the soul exists before "incarnation." Scientifically, I don't think there is anything to point to such a conclusion.

The “memory” problem of angel incarnation could be best illustrated by the flesh of Lord Jesus. How much does Jesus know that He was (or is) the God in the Heaven? It is hard to say in this case because the one incarnated is the God Himself. But I am sure it is clear in the Christian doctrine that Jesus is a 100% human. Then the special behavior of Jesus on the earth could be the utmost analogy of an angel incarnation.

When an angel incarnated as a human, the human might have the “image” of that angel. For an example, a piano expert might have a soul originated from an angel who is good in the skill which is similar to that needed for a good pianist. We do know angels have different capabilities. As they are workers for God, each of them should also have a special working skill. The situation of human, is essentially exactly the same. This could be the nature of the “memory” which is preserved during the incarnation. In human society, we called that as talent. And somehow, we should distinguish that from the Gift given by the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12; Gal. 5). That is why we do not treat, for example, a skill of carpentry or playing football as a spiritual gift.

 

[elopez]

I guess that if a fetus is aborted, the soul would simply go back to the Heaven as the original angel. And I would think that particular angel could not incarnate again. That would be the only chance for it (every angel has only one chance to do that, success or not). This hypothesis could give an answer to the abortion problem in theology. Otherwise, if the soul was a brand new creation of God, then the abortion would be a direct slap on the face of God.

Okay but I wasn't talking about the abortion issue. I don't see how this addresses the issue I actually brought up, which was the soul already being existent before being incarnated.

Also, I do not believe the soul is a new creation of God.

As far as how does an angel identify a woman to become the soul of her baby, I don’t know and I have not thought about the detail yet. But, if the idea of angel to human is supported by other arguments, then the mechanism of the process would be a relatively minor issue.

The idea of angel to human isn't supported by any other arguments, so it's a rather pressing issue to me at least.

The “memory” problem of angel incarnation could be best illustrated by the flesh of Lord Jesus. How much does Jesus know that He was (or is) the God in the Heaven? It is hard to say in this case because the one incarnated is the God Himself. But I am sure it is clear in the Christian doctrine that Jesus is a 100% human. Then the special behavior of Jesus on the earth could be the utmost analogy of an angel incarnation.

I believe if Jesus existed prior to the incarnation in an incorporeal state as God then He obviously was aware of such. Christ was 100% man and 100% God. The incarnation of Christ most definitely does not accurately represent your model of angel "incarnation", as again Christ was pre - existent before the incarnation, and according to you the soul is not pre - existent, hence it cannot adequately be called "incarnation."

When an angel incarnated as a human, the human might have the “image” of that angel. For an example, a piano expert might have a soul originated from an angel who is good in the skill which is similar to that needed for a good pianist. We do know angels have different capabilities. As they are workers for God, each of them should also have a special working skill. The situation of human, is essentially exactly the same. This could be the nature of the “memory” which is preserved during the incarnation. In human society, we called that as talent. And somehow, we should distinguish that from the Gift given by the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12; Gal. 5). That is why we do not treat, for example, a skill of carpentry or playing football as a spiritual gift.

What skill would the angel have that would be similar to that needed for a human to become a good pianist? Especially given that you have said things like playing football or carpentry are not spiritual gifts, which only implies playing the piano is not a spiritual gift?

 

[juvenissun]

Okay but I wasn't talking about the abortion issue. I don't see how this addresses the issue I actually brought up, which was the soul already being existent before being incarnated.

Also, I do not believe the soul is a new creation of God.


The idea of angel to human isn't supported by any other arguments, so it's a rather pressing issue to me at least.


I believe if Jesus existed prior to the incarnation in an incorporeal state as God then He obviously was aware of such. Christ was 100% man and 100% God. The incarnation of Christ most definitely does not accurately represent your model of angel "incarnation", as again Christ was pre - existent before the incarnation, and according to you the soul is not pre - existent, hence it cannot adequately be called "incarnation."


What skill would the angel have that would be similar to that needed for a human to become a good pianist? Especially given that you have said things like playing football or carpentry are not spiritual gifts, which only implies playing the piano is not a spiritual gift?

OK, you are forcing me to speculate more. I am happy to do that. But what I will say should not be 100% speculation. It is said based on something suggested in the Scripture:

Everyone of us, believer or non-believer, is surrounded by some angels. If God wants something happen to us, an angel around us may be the one who executes God’s order (such as example in the Book of Job). So, if an angel is willing to incarnate and is permitted by God to do so, then “it” will find a couple on the earth who are making love at that moment. At the moment when the sperm enters the egg, the angel simply “jumps” in and becomes the soul of the fetus. Noticed here that the “soul” does not really pre-exist. It was an angel, not just a soul.

How about that? Detailed enough? Again, God may assign a particular angel to go to a particular person (like Jeremiah). Or it would up to the angel to find, or choose, a particular person. I believe it is not that hard to do.

 

[elopez]

The problem is the idea of an angel becoming human is not Biblical. We can say that angels surround us and intercede for God on our behalf, but that still does not mean that they become man. To me the view is not Biblical or reasonable. That's just what I lean towards.

 

[Jazer]

The creation of the human soul is ex nihilo, it's a creation, 'from nothing', something only God can do.

We are not created from nothing. Every element in our body was made in a star somewhere. According to Brian Cox every cell in our body tells us the history of the universe.

 

[juvenissun]

The problem is the idea of an angel becoming human is not Biblical. We can say that angels surround us and intercede for God on our behalf, but that still does not mean that they become man. To me the view is not Biblical or reasonable. That's just what I lean towards.

Based on what I have said, I would say that the idea is reasonable. Why not? That is, in fact, the whole point of this thread. Why is it less "reasonable" than other models? As far as I can see, my model answers more questions than other models.

Biblical or not, it is another matter, as long as it is not un-Biblical. If you could give me a Scripture verse which says against my model, then I would thank you very much.

 

[elopez]

Based on what I have said, I would say that the idea is reasonable. Why not? That is, in fact, the whole point of this thread. Why is it less "reasonable" than other models? As far as I can see, my model answers more questions than other models.

I'm sure you would but based on the very same things you find reasonable I do not find them so. I've explained why not. You say your model answers the abortion issue which is not the issue I have with your model.

Biblical or not, it is another matter, as long as it is not un-Biblical. If you could give me a Scripture verse which says against my model, then I would thank you very much.

Throughout the Bible angels are described as different from humans. Not the same or becoming humans but assisting them.

 

[DamonWV]

I always pondered your first breath in , your last breath out .. god blew into adam. I figured that was his soul going in maybe ? But as a unborn child in the mothers womb, your not taking your first breath of Dry o2 until your out of the womb, but you are breathing inside the womb also.. So I wondered myself when the soul would be present. At conception ? Who could really ever give the perfect answer, it would be challenged by either side.

 

[juvenissun]

I always pondered your first breath in , your last breath out .. god blew into adam. I figured that was his soul going in maybe ? But as a unborn child in the mothers womb, your not taking your first breath of Dry o2 until your out of the womb, but you are breathing inside the womb also.. So I wondered myself when the soul would be present. At conception ? Who could really ever give the perfect answer, it would be challenged by either side.

We need a system about the origin, the process, the destination and the purpose of human soul such as the one I presented. So we do not restrict the argument on any single piece of speculation. If the system works and can cover wider issues, then parts in the system will also make sense and are harder to argue against.

 

[juvenissun]

I learned something the other day. I made a summarization and like to hear your opinion:

1. I am a soul and I have a body. (that is fine)
2. When I was born (or conceived), I also have a dead spirit. (That is the original sin)
3. My spirit will come back to life when I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord. (i.e. reborn)
4. From then on, I have a soul and a spirit.
5. God (or the Holy Spirit) only talk to my spirit, not to my soul (still sinful).
6. And my spirit talks to my soul.
7. When I die, both my soul and my spirit will go to the heaven. (sins covered)
8. My spirit gives me the quality of being a Heavenly citizen.
9. But my soul gives me the identify of me in the Heaven, just like what I was on the earth.
10. All my earthly learning will be kept in my soul. So I am still 100% me in the Heaven.
Appendix: After the resurrection, I will have a new body to join my soul and my spirit in the Heaven.
Extra: We do can bring (a lot of) things with us when we die. (the Heavenly wealth)

Anything you do not feel right about it?
Thanks.

 

[Jig]

I learned something the other day. I made a summarization and like to hear your opinion:

1. I am a soul and I have a body. (that is fine)
2. When I was born (or conceived), I also have a dead spirit. (That is the original sin)
3. My spirit will come back to life when I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord. (i.e. reborn)
4. From then on, I have a soul and a spirit.
5. God (or the Holy Spirit) only talk to my spirit, not to my soul (still sinful).
6. And my spirit talks to my soul.
7. When I die, both my soul and my spirit will go to the heaven. (sins covered)
8. My spirit gives me the quality of being a Heavenly citizen.
9. But my soul gives me the identify of me in the Heaven, just like what I was on the earth.
10. All my earthly learning will be kept in my soul. So I am still 100% me in the Heaven.
Appendix: After the resurrection, I will have a new body to join my soul and my spirit in the Heaven.
Extra: We do can bring (a lot of) things with us when we die. (the Heavenly wealth)

Anything you do not feel right about it?
Thanks.

This seems to be in alignment with what gotquestions.org has to say. And I generally agree with them.

What is the difference between the soul and spirit of man?