Origin of Christ

[2ducklow]

If Jesus is just a man then he comes under what Paul says when he says "None is righteous, no not one." Jesus cannot therefore be in perfect unity with the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all (new. i.e. the last adam, the new man .)creation;


sometimes in the word of god the new creation is just called creation, I suppose because it is the only creation that will last, all other creations made on the first 6 days are bound for distruction, so in God's eyes it's as good as done, so he just calls new creation creation.

heres proof.

Romans 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.

it is christians, the creation or new creations that wait for the revealing of the sons of God (those who know enough about what the bible says about it which isn't most christians, most christians don't know that at the end of this age christians will be like Christ an have attained unto the full stature of Christ, the new man even though it's right there in the bible in ephs.) . The old creation couldn't care less about the revealing of the sons of God.


Jesus is not just a man, he is not the first adam like us, he is the last adam, the new creation of God, he is the new man that replaces the old man.we become sinnless new creations in Jesus because he is the sinnless new creation man . he is also the son of God, so Jesus is not just a man, but he is a man.

everyone of you that respond to my posts IGNORE practically everything I say because you have no rebutal agaionst the truth. I tackle head on everyting you guys throw at me cause I have the truth and therefore don't need to run from the truth, and ignore what you say. you guys don't have the truth so you have to dodge it everytime it comes at you and change the subject or focus on something you think you have me trapped on . Naturally you will ignore this cause it is the truth, undeniable truth that Jesus is the last adam, and therefore not just a man, and either quite talking to me or bring up another subject you think you got me trapped on, but you won't face the truth. you have demonstated that you will not face the truth that John 20.28 says "the lord of me and the God of me" and does not say "my lord and my God" so you dodge and weave around it trying to find some way to trap me instead of facing the truth.

 

[2ducklow]

Sure is. That's why they were trying to kill Him. They accused Him of blasphemy by calling Himself God.

it is your interpretation that john 5.18 means that Jesus was claiming to be God, this is a fundamental flaw that is omnipresent in the christian world.
[quotedollarsbill]

John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. [/quote] Clearly the meaning is not that Jesus is equal with God, because Jesus said his father, who is the only real god, was greater than him. So the meaing of that verse has to be, in order to not contradict other scriptures, something most people are unconcerrned with, that the jews were accusing hijm of being equal with God. Because God does not contradict himself in his word. Jesus said that God was his Father, they enterrpeted that to mean that Jesus was equal with God, just like you modern day trinitarians do, but that contradicts scripture that says god the father is greater than Jesus. Jesus is not equal to god, he was begotten by God who created human male seed to fertilize mary's egg with, thus Jesus is the literal son of god and mary. Jesus is not equal with mary cause she conceived him, and Jesus is not equal with God cause God begat him

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

Jesus refered to God as his Father, that is why in verse 18 they accused him of being equal with God, it was their false accusation,made by unbelieveing Jews, and now by most christians.

Very lame indeed.

the only thing lame is your response, you just ran from whatever I said cause you have no rebutal except to denegrate it with 'very lame". keep on running one day you'll have to stop though.

And that's simply YOUR opinion, again.

hey name a scriture in support of your doctrine that Jesus is God and I will show you how that verse is ether spurious, a false translation, interpreted using exteme illogic, or intrpreting it to contradict beaucoup other scritpures, and every time I do you will ignore it. I know , cause you guys have no other option but to ignore the truth when presented to you. I have had much experiences dealing with those who claim Jesus is god, i know your tactics.

John 1 is unmistakeable. The Word was God and became flesh, Jesus. God can't stop being God.

that's if you change the meaning of word to preexistant christ, but if you keep the meaning of the word logos of god, which is word of God, then clearly Jesus is not the words of god turned into flesh, an idiotic interpretation, but Jesus is figuratively the word of God in that he speaks what god the father gives him to speak jon 14.10. once again you cannot see that what you say are your interrpretations and not scripture, a humongous blind spot when one cannot distinguish from what they say and what the bible says.

And became flesh, Jesus.

You're the one doing the interpreting by using YOUR translation.

no I used a greek english interlinear, that translates it correctly as the lord of meand the god of me.' in fact all Greek NT interlinears tranlsate it that way cause they have no choice but to tell the truth in an interlinear. its only in bible translations do they have ample time to lie to us. which some people gobble up eagerly , and a few don't.

I notice you didn't comment on this:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

cause there's nothing in it that indicates Jesus is anything muchless god, and you didn't explain how you got that Jesus is god from that verse, and I have no doubt that you wouldn't explain how you got that Jesus is God from that verse if I asked you . you've quoted it twice and twice you haven't explained how you get that Jesus is g od from that verse. so clearly you never will.

Revelation 2:18, 24 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

The God of the OT is clearly Jesus.

you haven't explained how you get that Jesus is god from any of these verses, and I don't see how anyone could evern remotly interpret those scriptures to mean Jesus is god, and I know you will never explain how cause you don't know how you get that Jesus is God from these verses, which is why you don't explain it. so no use in asking you.

 

[dollarsbill]

it is your interpretation that john 5.18 means that Jesus was claiming to be God, this is a fundamental flaw that is omnipresent in the christian
world.

Only God is 'equal with God'. It was John's comment. The same person who proclaimed Jesus God in Ch 1.

John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Clearly the meaning is not that Jesus is equal with God, because Jesus said his father, who is the only real god, was greater than him. So the meaing of that verse has to be, in order to not contradict other scriptures, something most people are unconcerrned with, that the jews were accusing hijm of being equal with God. Because God does not contradict himself in his word. Jesus said that God was his Father, they enterrpeted that to mean that Jesus was equal with God, just like you modern day trinitarians do, but that contradicts scripture that says god the father is greater than Jesus. Jesus is not equal to god, he was begotten by God who created human male seed to fertilize mary's egg with, thus Jesus is the literal son of god and mary. Jesus is not equal with mary cause she conceived him, and Jesus is not equal with God cause God begat him

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

Jesus refered to God as his Father, that is why in verse 18 they accused him of being equal with God, it was their false accusation,made by unbelieveing Jews, and now by most christians.

the only thing lame is your response, you just ran from whatever I said cause you have no rebutal except to denegrate it with 'very lame". keep on running one day you'll have to stop though.

Jesus is the Creator. Does that not mean God?

Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

hey name a scriture in support of your doctrine that Jesus is God and I will show you how that verse is ether spurious, a false translation, interpreted using exteme illogic, or intrpreting it to contradict beaucoup other scritpures, and every time I do you will ignore it.

Or maybe YOUR translation is false? God called His Son God, and said let the angels WORSHIP Him. That makes Jesus God, unmistakeable.

I know , cause you guys have no other option but to ignore the truth when presented to you. I have had much experiences dealing with those who claim Jesus is god, i know your tactics. that's if you change the meaning of word to preexistant christ, but if you keep the meaning of the word logos of god, which is word of God, then clearly Jesus is not the words of god turned into flesh, an idiotic interpretation, but Jesus is figuratively the word of God in that he speaks what god the father gives him to speak jon 14.10. once again you cannot see that what you say are your interrpretations and not scripture, a humongous blind spot when one cannot distinguish from what they say and what the bible says.

And I have had experience with those who prefer their own personal translations. Our English Bibles are consistent and proclaim Jesus as God, over and over.

no I used a greek english interlinear, that translates it correctly as the lord of meand the god of me.' in fact all Greek NT interlinears tranlsate it that way cause they have no choice but to tell the truth in an interlinear. its only in bible translations do they have ample time to lie to us.

Please tell us who it was in John 1 called God that became flesh and dwelt among us if it wasn't Jesus.

which some people gobble up eagerly , and a few don't.
cause there's nothing in it that indicates Jesus is anything muchless god, and you didn't explain how you got that Jesus is god from that verse, and I have no doubt that you wouldn't explain how you got that Jesus is God from that verse if I asked you . you've quoted it twice and twice you haven't explained how you get that Jesus is g od from that verse. so clearly you never will.you haven't explained how you get that Jesus is god from any of these verses, and I don't see how anyone could evern remotly interpret those scriptures to mean Jesus is god, and I know you will never explain how cause you don't know how you get that Jesus is God from these verses, which is why you don't explain it. so no use in asking you.

There's no point in explaining to those who prefer their own personal translations what is clearly stated in the Bible. You can translate it any way you prefer.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

 

[Noxot]

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

that does indeed seem to show who Christ is. how I see Christ/Son/Word in one sense is "the way" not only in this universe, but forever and ever "the way" to Father. no matter how much we progress with God, there is always more and more and Christ is that Son and special breath of God, the press that makes the coin. both always with the Father, as per inside and not spoken out and also spoken out by Father. both thoughts of Father and words spoken by Father. and we go where Christ goes, yay. and we abide in Christ and so we get to abide in Father.

Christ always seems to be not only one step ahead of us to the Father, but an infinite steps ahead and also right there in front of us. seriously God is hard to explain since he can't really be explained or contained. those things which Father has planned for us to experience Him are like us seeing little by little the constant uncovering of Father, who we will never ever be able to know as God himself knows, but it is one heck of a ride and we just get better and better and deeper an deeper into who is God.

 

[2ducklow]

Only God is 'equal with God'. It was John's comment. The same person who proclaimed Jesus God in Ch 1.

John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

I explained my understanding of that verse, you ignored it and pretend like I've said nothing.

Jesus is the Creator. Does that not mean God?

Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

I already explained that one to you, you ignored my explanation and continue to pretend like I"ve said nothing on the matter.

Or maybe YOUR translation is false?

I explained that , and you ignored my explanation.

God called His Son God, and said let the angels WORSHIP Him. That makes Jesus God, unmistakeable.

I explained that, you ignored my explanation.

And I have had experience with those who prefer their own personal translations. Our English Bibles are consistent and proclaim Jesus as God, over and over.

no they don't, you interpet them to proclaim Jesus as God. no verse says Jesus is god, you do.

Please tell us who it was in John 1 called God that became flesh and dwelt among us if it wasn't Jesus.

I already explained the meaning of that verse to you, you ignored it.

There's no point in explaining to those who prefer their own personal translations what is clearly stated in the Bible.

3rd time and you refuse to explain how those 3 verses you listed mean Jesus is God, so I was right you don't know how they mean Jesus is god, and no one does. causethey don't.

You can translate it any way you prefer.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

this last quote from Isaih isn't one of the three, you listed previously, and you haven't explained how it means Jesus is God except to highlight mighty God and eternal Father. I ll give you my understanding of the verse even though you'll ignore it and pretend like I've said nothing.

In that verse it says that the son's NAME shall be CALLED the Mighty God, Eternal Father, It doesn't say that the son IS the Mighty God etc. So you interpret it to mean that the son IS the Mighty God, and I interpret it to mean that Jesus has the name of his Father, which he does. God gave Jesus his own name, like many Fathers do.

11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we [are].
(ASV) Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

.It is surprising how so many people ignore anything that contradicts their doctrine and preted like the evidence doesn't exist, no matter how many times one confronts them with it. Tons of people do that.

 

[dollarsbill]

I explained my understanding of that verse, you ignored it and pretend like I've said nothing.
I already explained that one to you, you ignored my explanation and continue to pretend like I"ve said nothing on the matter.
I explained that , and you ignored my explanation.

I explained that, you ignored my explanation.
no they don't, you interpet them to proclaim Jesus as God. no verse says Jesus is god, you do.
I already explained the meaning of that verse to you, you ignored it.
3rd time and you refuse to explain how those 3 verses you listed mean Jesus is God, so I was right you don't know how they mean Jesus is god, and no one does. causethey don't.
this last quote from Isaih isn't one of the three, you listed previously, and you haven't explained how it means Jesus is God except to highlight mighty God and eternal Father. I ll give you my understanding of the verse even though you'll ignore it and pretend like I've said nothing.

In that verse it says that the son's NAME shall be CALLED the Mighty God, Eternal Father, It doesn't say that the son IS the Mighty God etc. So you interpret it to mean that the son IS the Mighty God, and I interpret it to mean that Jesus has the name of his Father, which he does. God gave Jesus his own name, like many Fathers do.

11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we [are].
(ASV) Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

.It is surprising how so many people ignore anything that contradicts their doctrine and preted like the evidence doesn't exist, no matter how many times one confronts them with it. Tons of people do that.

Revelation 2:18-23 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
21 ~'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22 ~'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Jesus is God.

 

[2ducklow]

Revelation 2:18-23 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
21 ~'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22 ~'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

.

these are the verses you choose to proove that it is undeniable that Jesus is God? really? ones in which Jesus talks about his Father who is God. In that case, you have no proof. cause you forgot this verse;

rev. 2.27 and he shall shepherd them with a sceptre of iron,--as, vessels of earthenware, are dashed in pieces:--as, I also, have received from my Father.

the bible identifies the speaker as Jesus, not God . You identify the speaker as God.
THe Father of Jesus is god, that's what son of god means, that God is the Father of Jesus.

I'm gonna take a wild guess here, based on your track record. You will ignore my entire post and go on to another topic. you really better give up, verse after verse over and over you prove that you have no proof for your doctrine that Jesus is God.

 

[dollarsbill]

these are the verses you choose to proove that it is undeniable that Jesus is God? really? ones in which Jesus talks about his Father who is God. In that case, you have no proof. cause you forgot this verse;

rev. 2.27 and he shall shepherd them with a sceptre of iron,--as, vessels of earthenware, are dashed in pieces:--as, I also, have received from my Father.

Only God is "equal with God". Jesus is.

John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

the bible identifies the speaker as Jesus, not God . You identify the speaker as God.
THe Father of Jesus is god, that's what son of god means, that God is the Father of Jesus.

It is indeed God.

"I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds."

And is a repeat from Jer 17:10 describing God/Jesus.

I'm gonna take a wild guess here, based on your track record. You will ignore my entire post and go on to another topic. you really better give up, verse after verse over and over you prove that you have no proof for your doctrine that Jesus is God.

Wrong again. I addressed every point.

 

[2ducklow]

Only God is "equal with God". Jesus is.

that is extremely faulty logic.A = B doesn't mean A is B. I am equal to you, but I am not you. one can't be equal to oneself, one is oneself, or one is equal to someone else. If we were not discussin g Jesus is or isnt god, you would know that, but since we are that simple logic exscapes you. in fact saying Jesus is equal to god proves he is not God, because there is only one God, and if Jesus is equal to the one and only God that there is then he isn't the one and only true God. just as me saying I am equal to dollarsbill proves that I am not you.

If Jesus is equal to god, then how do you explain Jesus statement that his father is greater than Jesus? God the Father is the one and only true or real god according to john 17.3 , and 1 cor. 8.6 and others,

John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

It is indeed God.

you have a giant leap in faulty logic to arrive at that conclusion, or you don't know the meaning of the word equal. equal doesn't mean is.

"I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds."

And is a repeat from Jer 17:10 describing God/Jesus.

you haven't demonstrated how jer. 17.30 or the verses from isaih mean that Jesus is God, and this is the 4 th time you've claimed it without explaining how it is. There is nothing in those verses indicating that Jesus is God. And you don't know how they mean that Jesus is God which is why for the 4th time now you have refused to explain how those verses mean that Jesus is God. Obviously you don't have a clue.

Wrong again. I addressed every point.

you did better this time. but you continue to ignore what I said. I said that the speaker in that verse you quoted is identified as Jesus (the son of God), and that the verse I quoted which is a continuation of that dialogue of Jesus , has Jesus talking about his Father, who is of course the one and only real god. you ignored commenting on that,what can you say though? nothing cause it's the truth. so how can you get that Jesus is God from a verse where Jesus talks about his Father, who is the only real God? you ignored that. your conunter argument is just another topic, not an explanation of how I am wrong, in your eyes. I don't think you have a rebutal is the reason you ignore so much of what I say.

 

[Simonline]

Hello. I believe that he is the first creation of God. This seems to fit the context as well. Please consider the following.

Jesus' statement reads as follows:

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Revelation 3:14)​

With respect you need to get yourself a ligitimate translation of the Bible. Rev.3:14 declares that 'these are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler (arche) of God's Creation.'

This is a reference to the Messiah as the ruler of God's Creation (c.f. Matt.28:18) and not to the Messiah as the first finite creature ever to have been created which is a 'forced interpretation' on the part of those who would deny the Biblical revelation that the One God Exists as Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal.


​

He is the "Amen," which itself a means of vouching that a thing is true; He is the "faithful and true witness," which is a declaration of his own reliabilty as a witness to the truth; He is "the beginning of the creation of God," which shows his ability to bear witness of all things from the very beginning. .... The point that Christ is making in the context is that he is a reliable witness.

If the Messiah is the first finite creature ever to have been created rather than the Infinite Creator Himself (Col.1:15-16) then how can he possibly bear witness to whatever may or may not have existed before he himself was created?! This argument is utterly contradictory to what the entire Scriptures reveal both about God and His incarnation as the Messiah (Isa.43:10-13: Titus.2:13 etc.)?!

A common principle that runs through the Bible is that every matter should be established on the testimony of two to three witnesses:

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (2 Corithians 13:1)
​

Jesus spoke of this principle as well, saying:

"It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me." (John 8:17-18)
​

Just as the Father bears witness concerning the Son, so also the Son bears witness concerning the Father.

What a shame that you have been indoctrinated to bear false witness contrary to the Divine Revelation (Ex.20:16)

God shows that he has given Christ as a witness to us, saying:

"Behold, I have given him as a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people." (Isaiah 55:4)
​

Witnesses are chosen on the basis of the longevity of interaction they have experienced with the one concerning whom they are to bear witness. The longer that a witness has been with someone, the greater their ability to witness on that one's behalf. In fact, this is the sole reason that Christ gives to substantiate his disciples' ability to witness on his behalf, saying:

"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." (John 15:27)
​

The disciples maintained ths rule as well whenever they chose witnesses, saying:

"Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." (Acts 1:21-22) (c.f., Luke 1:2)
​

In light of this principle, it makes perfect sense that Christ's ability to testify on God's behalf goes hand in hand with the fact that he is God's very first creation, and thus he says:

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Revelation 3:14)[/quote]


No, the Messiah bears witness of the Father because like the Father he is also the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH (Matt.11:27; Jn.1:1). The Messiah is the Eternal Divine Creator as well as a finite human creature.
​

In Proverbs 8 (LXX), Christ shows that he is a witness to us of the daily things and the former things while also declaring that he was the beginning of God's creation, saying:

"If I declare to you the things that daily happen, I will remember also to recount the things of old. The Lord created me the beginning of his ways for his works." (Proverbs 8:21-22 LXX)
​

I know Proverbs 8 is a matter yet to be discussed, but I do believe it speaks of Christ, and this was accepted as the case by both the "Arian" side and the "Athanasian" side.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason

This cannot be a reference to the Messiah since he did not exist as a creature until the Incarnation/Virgin Birth. Prior to that the Messiah was the Eternal Divine Creator.

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

With respect you need to get yourself a ligitimate translation of the Bible. Rev.3:14 declares that 'these are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler (arche) of God's Creation.'

a bold face false hood. arche is never translated as ruler in the KJV. It's translated beginning 40 times, prinicipality 8, corner 2, first 2 and misc. 6.

New Testament Greek for ', the beginning '
746 arche {ar-khay'}
from 756; TDNT - 1:479,81; n f
AV - beginning 40, principality 8, corner 2, first 2, misc 6; 58
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing
(strong's number 746)

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version


so the translation you made up is very poor,

This is a reference to the Messiah as the ruler of God's Creation (c.f. Matt.28:18) and not to the Messiah as the first finite creature ever to have been created which is a 'forced interpretation' on the part of those who would deny the Biblical revelation that the One God Exists as Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal.

no verse says god exists as tri-personal. tri-presonal is a nonsense term, it doesn't mean 3 persons. that would be tri-person. tri-personal means like 3 persona closenesses. Only man makes up nonsense terms like that n ot god. Tri-person, which is what you prehaps meant, who knows, is alson nonsense, one person isn't 3 persons, thatn's a contradiction and nonsense.

[/indent]If the Messiah is the first finite creature ever to have been created rather than the Infinite Creator Himself (Col.1:15-16) then how can he possibly bear witness to whatever may or may not have existed before he himself was created?! This argument is utterly contradictory to what the entire Scriptures reveal both about God and His incarnation as the Messiah (Isa.43:10-13: Titus.2:13 etc.)?!

nothing in the bible about incarnation. not a biblical concept or word

What a shame that you have been indoctrinated to bear false witness contrary to the Divine Revelation (Ex.20:16)

God shows that he has given Christ as a witness to us, saying:

"Behold, I have given him as a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people." (Isaiah 55:4)
​

Witnesses are chosen on the basis of the longevity of interaction they have experienced with the one concerning whom they are to bear witness. The longer that a witness has been with someone, the greater their ability to witness on that one's behalf. In fact, this is the sole reason that Christ gives to substantiate his disciples' ability to witness on his behalf, saying:

"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." (John 15:27)
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The disciples maintained ths rule as well whenever they chose witnesses, saying:

"Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." (Acts 1:21-22) (c.f., Luke 1:2)
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In light of this principle, it makes perfect sense that Christ's ability to testify on God's behalf goes hand in hand with the fact that he is God's very first creation, and thus he says:

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Revelation 3:14)
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No, the Messiah bears witness of the Father because like the Father he is also the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH (Matt.11:27; Jn.1:1). The Messiah is the Eternal Divine Creator as well as a finite human creature. [/quote] thatt translateds to Jesus is a soul and a spirit, which is once again, nonsense.
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This cannot be a reference to the Messiah since he did not exist as a creature until the Incarnation/Virgin Birth. Prior to that the Messiah was the Eternal Divine Creator.

Simonline.

your doctrine is just as nonsensiccal as always. I don 't know how anyone could trick their mind into believing it.

 

[Keachian]

nothing in the bible about incarnation. not a biblical concept or word

And the Word became flesh. Considering equality with God not something to be grasped he emptied himself and took on the form of a slave and coming in human likeness.

There you go, two undeniable references to Christ coming away from God and becoming human, no doubt what Simon was talking about when he referenced incarnation.

 

[2ducklow]

And the Word became flesh. Considering equality with God not something to be grasped he emptied himself and took on the form of a slave and coming in human likeness.

Probably you know that the word incarnation isn't in the bible. Incarnation means to change into flesh. The word or logos is a term refering to the word of God, which is a term for God's words, so the meaning of "the word became flesh" is that God's words became flesh, not literally but figuratively. It is innane , as all would agree, to say that god's words changed into flesh, which would be the literal interpretation. The word of God says in john 14.10 that Jesus spoke what God the Father gave him to speak, so in that sense he is the word of God, also in the sense that the word is God's plan for man, and Jesus is the culmination of that plan for man. There is nothing in the bible about a preexistant christ or the logos being that, or the logos being a sentient being as some say, that all comes from ancient Greek philosophy, Neoplatonism. God uses words to mean what they mean, and logos means word, not preexistant christ.
the second part you quoted is

phil 2.6 Who, in form of God, subsisting, not, a thing to be seized, accounted the being equal with God, 7 But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant's form, coming to be, in men's likeness; 8 And, in fashion, being found, as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient as far as death, yea, death upon a cross.

other scriptures clearly state that Jesus is and was a man, so naturally a man would be found in the fashion of a man. In mens likeness? just means he is in the likeness of the old man, the first adam, because Jesus is the last adam, the new man,

taking a servants form? just means he didn't take the form of a King or a husband or some other thing.

He emptied himself of those desires and humbled himself, the least, a servant of all, is the Greatest, Jesus Christ.

There you go, two undeniable references to Christ coming away from God and becoming human, no doubt what Simon was talking about when he referenced incarnation.

it's nonsense if you use the meaning of the word logos, if you change the meaning of logos to something it isn't well that's another story, which thing I agree, he probably did.

AS to Christ coming from God, the bible states that the way Jesus came from God was by God begatting Jesus, not by god's words changing into flesh, begattin doesn't mean incarnation. Incarnation contradicts the word of God that Says Jesus was begotten and conceived. he had real father and mother, not some figurative ones.

 

[dollarsbill]

that is extremely faulty logic.A = B doesn't mean A is B. I am equal to you, but I am not you. one can't be equal to oneself, one is oneself, or one is equal to someone else. If we were not discussin g Jesus is or isnt god, you would know that, but since we are that simple logic exscapes you. in fact saying Jesus is equal to god proves he is not God, because there is only one God, and if Jesus is equal to the one and only God that there is then he isn't the one and only true God. just as me saying I am equal to dollarsbill proves that I am not you.

Contradiction.

If Jesus is equal to god, then how do you explain Jesus statement that his father is greater than Jesus? God the Father is the one and only true or real god according to john 17.3 , and 1 cor. 8.6 and others,

That is referring to Jesus in the flesh.

Philippians 2:7-8 (NASB)
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

you have a giant leap in faulty logic to arrive at that conclusion, or you don't know the meaning of the word equal. equal doesn't mean is.

Only God is "equal to God".

Philippians 2:6 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

you haven't demonstrated how jer. 17.30 or the verses

Jer 17:10 describes God/Jesus as does Rev 2:23:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Revelation 2:23 (NASB)
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

from isaih mean that Jesus is God, and this is the 4 th time you've claimed it without explaining how it is.

It is self explanatory and consistent with English Bibles.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

There is nothing in those verses indicating that Jesus is God. And you don't know how they mean that Jesus is God which is why for the 4th time now you have refused to explain how those verses mean that Jesus is God.

I don't have to know how. But it does indeed teach the Jesus is God.

Obviously you don't have a clue.
you did better this time. but you continue to ignore what I said. I said that the speaker in that verse you quoted is identified as Jesus (the son of God), and that the verse I quoted which is a continuation of that dialogue of Jesus , has Jesus talking about his Father, who is of course the one and only real god.

Which verse are you referring to?

you ignored commenting on that,what can you say though? nothing cause it's the truth. so how can you get that Jesus is God from a verse where Jesus talks about his Father, who is the only real God? you ignored that. your conunter argument is just another topic, not an explanation of how I am wrong, in your eyes. I don't think you have a rebutal is the reason you ignore so much of what I say.

The same way that God calls His Son "God" in Hebrews 1, and says let the angels worship Him.

Jesus is God.

 

[Gettingtalents]

With respect you need to get yourself a ligitimate translation of the Bible. Rev.3:14 declares that 'these are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler (arche) of God's Creation.'

Hello. Actually, translating it as "ruler of God's creation" is not a fair translation. Arche means beginning. Arche is used in a partitive genitive construction in Revelation 3:14. The partitive genitive phrase, "beginning of the creation of God," leaves no doubt that Christ is the beginning of God's creation. In the entire Greek New Testament (and I would argue that the same holds true in the LXX), wherever the word arche is followed by a genitive phrase ("beginnning of the ____ ") that which is called the arche is always included as part, the first part, of the category that follows without exception.

Examples:

• "The beginning (arche) of gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1) The beginning of the gospel, written by Mark, is the first part of the gospel (the first sentence).

• "This beginning (arche) of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee" (John 2:11) This was the first public miracle among the miracles of Jesus and is included in the category of miracles.

• "... all things continue as they were from the beginning (arche) of creation." (2 Peter 3:4) The beginning of creation is included among creation and is therefore part of the creation as well.

You will not find a single exception to this format principle. While there are rare cases when the word arche (being restricted by the context) does carry a meaning other than beginning, it NEVER does so when it is used in a partitive genitive construction (as in Revelation 3:14). In fact, this type of phrase structure ("beginning of the ____") is intentionally utilized for the purpose of showing that the arche actually is the first part of that category.

Trinitarian Albert Barnes wrote:

"If it were demonstrated from other sources that Christ was, in fact, a created being, and the first that God had made, it cannot be denied that this language would appropriately express that fact" (Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible, entry for Rev. 3:14)
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The language of Revelation 3:14 does say that Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. To say otherwise would be to disregard the partitive genitive structure. The translation "ruler of the creation of God" is a product of theological bias. The NIV is honestly a bias translation. I used to like it before I began studying Greek.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason