dollarsbill
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Even if nearly all of our English Bibles agree?
I guess we're back to where we started. 'You're right and our English Bibles are wrong.'
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Origin of Christ
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the obverse of that is "Is everyone right cause everyone says it?" I say a big NO.
they all agree as far as I was able to determine. but to answer you're question, yes. why"? Because I have investigated this matter to the nth degree, and have found that Greek grammers, and bible commentaries almost totally evade what I have brought up. So while what you say would be an indicator that I am wrong, the fact that everyone evades what I've said is an indicator I am right. But I don't go by those indicators I go by the facts. I don't say dollar is wrong cause he evades everything I say, that's your tactic not mine. the only way you can convince me thatI am wrong is by demonstrating what I said was wrong,
No, Im right for the reasons I gave which you evaded,and I am right on the portions of these 2 verses that I explained,, not the entire bible, and all bible translations (as far as I was able to determine) are wrong ON THESE VERSES WHERE I SAID THEY ARE WRONG, NOT EVERYWHERE. I never said all English bibles are wrong, I said all bibles translate these verses wrong. or similar words.dollarsbill said:
I guess we're back to where we started. 'You're right and our English Bibles are wrong.'
It seems you have no ability to discuss the matter other than to say I"m wrong cause of who I am. perhaps because what I say makes so much sense you have no credible response or other alternative, I mean you can't say "you're wrong heb. 1.8 doesn't say literally 'thy throne the god' " cause it does. so you're stuck with your reasoning that Im wrong cause of who I am, (words to that effect) which is really a nonresponse.. both your responses to me have been the same, words to the effect that I am wrong because of who I am.
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dollarsbill
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I'll stick with our English Bibles. They are quite consistent with major Bible doctrines.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
Psalm 102, talks of Yahweh laying the foundations of the world, the very heavens and earth are the works of his hand
ESV: Psalms 102:25. Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Let's look again at the Hebrews 1 passage
The writer is distinguishing the Son from angels, saying that they worship him, saying that the Son's throne is established forever, the writer hasn't made any departation from speaking about the Son, then he quotes Psalm 102 and says that the Son has created exactly what Psalm 102 attributes to Yahweh.
ESV: Hebrews 1:10. You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
ESV: Psalms 102:25. Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Let's look again at the Hebrews 1 passage
The writer is distinguishing the Son from angels, saying that they worship him, saying that the Son's throne is established forever, the writer hasn't made any departation from speaking about the Son, then he quotes Psalm 102 and says that the Son has created exactly what Psalm 102 attributes to Yahweh.
ESV: Hebrews 1:10. You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
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dollarsbill
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Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things have been created through Him and for Him.
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firstpetertwonine
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Hello Jason, I'm the one who had the last post on the "apologetics" page before the thread needed moved... peace be with you. I wish to thank you for your very respectful, polite replies. The world could use more of that, for sure. 
I am thinking we are probably going to need to end up agreeing to disagree here, my brother. In response to the discussion of Revelation 3:14, I get that the text is referring to Christ as the "first of creation" but that could simply refer to His death and resurrection ushering in the New Covenant, the "new creation". Jesus is the first to rise from the dead, as we all someday will, ushering in a new order of things. I'm afraid I'm not quite sold that this proves Christ had an actual beginning of His existence, sorry.
Re: my cross-reference of Psalm 89:27 - I do get what you are saying here as well, the verse is a prophetic fortelling of Christ. But the verse was written hundreds of years before Christ walked the earth and was written first, at the time, to refer to David... that doesn't mean it doesn't also have the second, prophetic meaning as referring to Christ, as Wesley wrote and you quoted - it certainly does. But it also has that first meaning of referring, at the time, to David, and the difference is significant because otherwise, the focus is shifted away from my point - David is called "firstborn" when he wasn't the first child of Jesse or the first human ever created, he really wasn't the first of anything and yet "firstborn" is a title that could be transferred to him...
May I ask, sir, if you have a reply for those who have quoted John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16? I have seen a few replies regarding Colossians 1:15 and 1:18 but it is 1:16 of which I find most significant. Not trying to be contentious (not in my nature to do so) but I find those to be of far greater significance regarding the creation (or lack thereof!) of Christ...
Well that's my take, I usually only check these boards on the weekends so see ya next week. Again, thank you for the very polite and respectful replies, they are appreciated...
Love in Christ, Steve
I am thinking we are probably going to need to end up agreeing to disagree here, my brother. In response to the discussion of Revelation 3:14, I get that the text is referring to Christ as the "first of creation" but that could simply refer to His death and resurrection ushering in the New Covenant, the "new creation". Jesus is the first to rise from the dead, as we all someday will, ushering in a new order of things. I'm afraid I'm not quite sold that this proves Christ had an actual beginning of His existence, sorry.
Re: my cross-reference of Psalm 89:27 - I do get what you are saying here as well, the verse is a prophetic fortelling of Christ. But the verse was written hundreds of years before Christ walked the earth and was written first, at the time, to refer to David... that doesn't mean it doesn't also have the second, prophetic meaning as referring to Christ, as Wesley wrote and you quoted - it certainly does. But it also has that first meaning of referring, at the time, to David, and the difference is significant because otherwise, the focus is shifted away from my point - David is called "firstborn" when he wasn't the first child of Jesse or the first human ever created, he really wasn't the first of anything and yet "firstborn" is a title that could be transferred to him...
May I ask, sir, if you have a reply for those who have quoted John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16? I have seen a few replies regarding Colossians 1:15 and 1:18 but it is 1:16 of which I find most significant. Not trying to be contentious (not in my nature to do so
) but I find those to be of far greater significance regarding the creation (or lack thereof!) of Christ...Well that's my take, I usually only check these boards on the weekends so see ya next week. Again, thank you for the very polite and respectful replies, they are appreciated...
Love in Christ, Steve
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And I'll follow the example of Josiah.
2 Chronicles 34:1-2 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign; and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And he did that which was right in the eyes of Jehovah, and walked in the ways of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.
2 Chronicles 34:8 Now in the eighteenth year of his reign, when he had purged the land and the house, he sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, and Maaseiah the governor of the city, and Joah the son of Joahaz the recorder, to repair the house of Jehovah his God.
2 Chronicles 34:10 And they delivered it into the hand of the workmen that had the oversight of the house of Jehovah; and the workmen that wrought in the house of Jehovah gave it to mend and repair the house;
　
2 Chronicles 34:14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of Jehovah, Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law of Jehovah given by Moses.
2 Chronicles 34:18-19 And Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read therein before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.
2 Chronicles 34:21 Go ye, inquire of Jehovah for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found; for great is the wrath of Jehovah that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of Jehovah, to do according unto all that is written in this book.
2 Chronicles 34:23-27 And she said unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: Tell ye the man that sent you unto me, Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore is my wrath poured out upon this place, and it shall not be quenched. But unto the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Jehovah, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: As touching the words which thou hast heard, because thy heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and hast humbled thyself before me, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith Jehovah.
　
　
And I want to know what God actually said, not what people changed it too. Disobeying the word of god out of ignorance still results in some bad things. rejecting what God says because everybody agrees it should be changed is bad. The word of god says "the lord of me and the God of me" or it says "o my lord and o my god". you accept what they changed it to, "My lord and my God' I seek what god actually said. ignorance is no excuse, and you don't even have that excuse anymore.
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
The NT is perfectly clear who Jesus is. He is God, the Creator, the God of the OT.
Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
Revelation 2:18, 24 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
Revelation 2:18, 24 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
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the NT is perfectly clear that Jesus is the son of God, it in noway is clear that Jesus is God, In order for it to be clear that Jesus is God it would have to say "Jesus is God" which it doesn't. all you have for your doctrine, are bad translations, spurious scriptures , supreme illogic (the son of god is god means Jesus is his own daddy, illogic supremo maximus), and an adamant refusal to face the fact that no scripture says Jesus is God, you do. not scripture.
this is clear scripture that Jesus is the son of God cause that's what it says.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
this verse clearly states that the word was God, it does not clearly state that Jesus is God. the latter is your interpretation not scripture.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Your insistance that hte word clearly states that Jesus is God, is a changing of the word of God from what it says to what you interpret it to mean. so go with your interpretationsand call them scripture and *Ill go with scripture. ok
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Sure is. That's why they were trying to kill Him. They accused Him of blasphemy by calling Himself God.
John 5:18 (NASB)
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Very lame indeed.
And that's simply YOUR opinion, again.
John 1 is unmistakeable. The Word was God and became flesh, Jesus. God can't stop being God.
And became flesh, Jesus.
You're the one doing the interpreting by using YOUR translation.
I notice you didn't comment on this:
Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.
Revelation 2:18, 24 (NASB)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
23 ~'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
The God of the OT is clearly Jesus.
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
en arche ho logos
In the beginning was the word, no matter how far back we go the word has always been
kai ho logos en pros ton theon
The word was with God, the word was in communion with the one true God of Israel
kai ho theos en ho logos
and the word was God, not only is the above true but the word is considered deity
outos en en arche pros ton theon
In the beginning he was with God, we cannot claim that he is first of the creation of God, nor that he created God because from the beginning they have been in this communion, they are both eternal extant
panta di autou egeneto kai choris autou egeneto oude en ho gegonen
all things were made through him, [that is the Word], and without him was there anything made. Not only is the Word in communion with God but he is cocreator with God
en auto zon en kai he zon en phos ton anthropon
In him was life and the life was the light of men.
kai to phos en te skotia phainei kai he skotia auto ou katelaben
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
now I would guess that you attribute a lot of these qualities to Yahweh, you should, because there is no life apart from him, he is a light to men and has not been overcome by darkness, he is creator of all things, so why does John talk about the Word, this to your mind created being as if he is the creator? Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is One!
In the beginning was the word, no matter how far back we go the word has always been
kai ho logos en pros ton theon
The word was with God, the word was in communion with the one true God of Israel
kai ho theos en ho logos
and the word was God, not only is the above true but the word is considered deity
outos en en arche pros ton theon
In the beginning he was with God, we cannot claim that he is first of the creation of God, nor that he created God because from the beginning they have been in this communion, they are both eternal extant
panta di autou egeneto kai choris autou egeneto oude en ho gegonen
all things were made through him, [that is the Word], and without him was there anything made. Not only is the Word in communion with God but he is cocreator with God
en auto zon en kai he zon en phos ton anthropon
In him was life and the life was the light of men.
kai to phos en te skotia phainei kai he skotia auto ou katelaben
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
now I would guess that you attribute a lot of these qualities to Yahweh, you should, because there is no life apart from him, he is a light to men and has not been overcome by darkness, he is creator of all things, so why does John talk about the Word, this to your mind created being as if he is the creator? Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is One!
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Keachian
On Sabbatical
What Bible are you using? Jesus claims divinity pretty much right the way through the Gospels.
λεγει αυτω ο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου
Jesus said to them: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. None come to the Father but by me."
Who is the way but Yahweh? Who is the Truth but Yahweh? Who has life flowing from him but Yahweh?
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It is your interpretation that that verse means Jesus is God. Does it say Jesus is God, or Jesus is divine? NO. As to that particular verse, MY INTERPRETATION is that since Jesus and the Father are one (not one god but in agreement totally, which other scriptures attest to) that the meaning is obeying Jesus is obeying God because the words Jesus speaks and spoke were given to him by God his Father. john 14.10. So therefore, Jesus and the Father are both the way because Jesus speaks the words that God gives him. God speaks in Jesus. heb. 1.1-2
(ASV) John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.
(ASV) Hebrews 1:1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son,
God is in Christ and speaks in Christ, that's what scripture says ,and what I believe.
Typically what happens now is You guys ignore everything I said and insist that your contradictory interpretation is the only possible one.
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x141
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Before Abraham was "I am" But these words were uttered by Christ not Jesus. Christ is spirit therefore his words like the Father;s are life. Jesus is the soul that does nothing of himself. He was poured out as a drink offering upon the cross. God is neither born and neither does he die. If we understood more in depth of this we would better understand this fellowship we have been called to, this fellowship of Father and son. This is why each of us have a cross where we to pour out our soul unto death and thereby walk in this fellowship of Father and son.
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dollarsbill
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my Spirit was in Jesus too. he is past time and space, past all things and yet manifest to us in this age. and he manifest myself to me too. since i'm married to God, it goes to show that i was with Jesus. but people don't want to believe that you can get saved and then descend back to this age and universe as paraclete. I honestly would not even have came back here if I did not come with my husband. but Christ said it was ok and Father said it was good. did you know all of the saints are married to Gods Spirit? but Christ Jesus is my Lord even though he is equal to us sinners as Jesus, even though he himself did not sin, he counted himself no better than us. and he saw in us who we are and now he is showing me more and more who we all are in the Father.
but you can not separate Jesus from Christ just as you can not separate Noxot Christ, after all, we are all one body in Christ Jesus and we are all one Spirit and we are one soul. and one divinity. yet still i say, my Lord is my Lord, HE is my Lord. that is why i guess HE calls himself in one place, "Lord of lords" HE also calls himself "King of kings" and on another place HE calls himself "God of gods" I mean, what did you think being called a Son of God means? it feels great. I feel so much more complete now that I am restored to my Husband. I finally have really forsaken the world. I have finally discarded my cold pathetic weak human soul to Christ, and now HE is restoring it. human logic and understanding is WASTE and FILTH.
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