Ordination - an all male calling.

[Strong in Him]

During formal worship; no, they were not.

Were not what - allowed to worship God?

Just like Protestantism, it is only a recent innovation where women are reading in the synagogues and holding the office of Rabbi.

Yet women did hold office in the early church - deacon, deaconess, witness to the risen Christ, hosting/leading church gatherings. Paul entrusted Phoebe to take his letter to the church at Rome - and I'm pretty sure she was more than just a postwoman.

And female preachers is not a new thing - John Wesley had them in 1760, and William Booth appointed them in the Salvation Army.
In the 1300s Catherine of Siena - a Catholic - advised the Pope and taught cardinals. Other women founded convents and monasteries.

We do not permit women to read, hold the office of Elder or Chairmen in our congregations. They may vote and hold offices that exert no authority over men.

You do that, yes; other churches don't.

In the OT Deborah was judge over all Israel - sorting out men's disputes.

 

[Strong in Him]

The example of Christ is to appoint men to office,

He appointed circumcised Jews to office as well.

 

[Valletta]

Were not what - allowed to worship God?

Yet women did hold office in the early church - deacon, deaconess, witness to the risen Christ, hosting/leading church gatherings. Paul entrusted Phoebe to take his letter to the church at Rome - and I'm pretty sure she was more than just a postwoman.

And female preachers is not a new thing - John Wesley had them in 1760, and William Booth appointed them in the Salvation Army.
In the 1300s Catherine of Siena - a Catholic - advised the Pope and taught cardinals. Other women founded convents and monasteries.

You do that, yes; other churches don't.

In the OT Deborah was judge over all Israel - sorting out men's disputes.

You're confusing leadership roles for women with priestly ordination. The highest position in the Catholic Church is Sainthood, which is open to both women and men. Priests, since the first priest, Melchizedek, have always been males, just like mothers have always been female.

 

[Paidiske]

With regards to your last comment, you have shown me the type of person you are and that tells me everything. I wish you well

To be fair to Mark, I have known him on here a long time, and we have had many discussions on this and related topics, and while we still disagree, he has never treated me with anything less than courtesy, respect and support. I believe that last comment was intended as light humour, not to belittle you.

 

[Valletta]

So to sum up, your ‘interpretation’ (and yes, it’s an interpretation too) of the holy scripture is right and all other denominations other than the ones you mentioned are wrong.

With regards to your last comment, you have shown me the type of person you are and that tells me everything. I wish you well

I would think the vast majority of people who practice their religion seriously do so because they believe in what their particular religion or denomination teaches. So of course I believe my interpretation of the Bible is right like you believe your interpretation is right. All we can do is try, most important is our passion for Jesus. I believe in His great mercy and if I make it to Heaven expect to see people from many beliefs.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

He appointed circumcised Jews to office as well.

One - the appointment of circumcised men who were Jewish to office - was a necessity of history and nation. The other, the appointment of men and not of women, looks like a choice if one takes the circumstances of the first century AD and those of today as roughly the same; but they were not the same, so perhaps the choice of men alone was also a necessity of history and nation. In either case, men were chosen and that cannot be denied.

This debate is about choices, the Catholic Church argues from history and scripture as well as from sacred Tradition, that women are ineligible for choice as ordained priests or bishops, while some Anglicans and some from other denominations argue from human rights and equality of the sexes that women are eligible for choice as ordained priests and bishops, and some Anglicans also attempt to construct arguments in support of women in the deaconate and possibly in other roles (apostle for example) from holy scripture and from early church practise. Yet the churches that do ordain women to the priesthood and as bishops acknowledge that their current practise is a recent innovation.

Those denominations that choose to ordain women as priests and bishops, by doing so, place new practises as blockages to ecumenical dialogue. That is their choice. They are free to do so. Just as Catholics and those from the other ancient churches are free to refrain from ordaining women as priests or bishops, in keeping with their millennia long practises.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

To be fair to Mark, I have known him on here a long time, and we have had many discussions on this and related topics, and while we still disagree, he has never treated me with anything less than courtesy, respect and support. I believe that last comment was intended as light humour, not to belittle you.

Thanks, maybe not light humour, but an engineer's sarcasm coming through. Sarcasm is hard for many, but when seeing only text, it can be even more of a challenge. I will dial it back a bit.

We have known each other for some time, and even worked together here on staff and your being here has been a gift to CF. We need to catch up on stuff soon.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

He appointed circumcised Jews to office as well.

Yes, circumcised Jews who were now under the new covenant.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Were not what - allowed to worship God? Teaching

Yet women did hold office in the early church - deacon, deaconess, witness to the risen Christ, hosting/leading church gatherings. Paul entrusted Phoebe to take his letter to the church at Rome - and I'm pretty sure she was more than just a postwoman. She was faithful and entrusted with the task of helping Paul.

And female preachers is not a new thing - John Wesley had them in 1760, and William Booth appointed them in the Salvation Army.
In the 1300s Catherine of Siena - a Catholic - advised the Pope and taught cardinals. Other women founded convents and monasteries. 1760 is not old, my great, great grandparents were allice at that time.

You do that, yes; other churches don't.

In the OT Deborah was judge over all Israel - sorting out men's disputes. Sure, but not as a Pastor or a Priest, but as a military General and as a Prophet. Prophets; were any "Priests"? Nope.

 

[Strong in Him]

You're confusing leadership roles for women with priestly ordination.

No, I'm not confusing them.
But often, the same verse - 1 Tim 2:12 - is used to show that women should not do anything in the church.

The highest position in the Catholic Church is Sainthood, which is open to both women and men.

The NT says that all believers are saints - open to all believers.

Priests, since the first priest, Melchizedek, have always been males, just like mothers have always been female.

Which doesn't show that God can't call women.
It might show that the church doesn't allow it, but that's not quite the same.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, circumcised Jews who were now under the new covenant.

There was no new covenant at that point.
If you are disallowing women to be ordained because Jesus called only men, (though he had female disciples too) then you should disallow Gentiles because Jesus called only Jews.
Funny how men contest that point though.

 

[Strong in Him]

Teaching

Priscilla did.
And there were female prophets. Giving someone a word from the Lord is either telling them what is going to happen, or telling them something they didn't know.

She was faithful and entrusted with the task of helping Paul.

She was a deacon in a position of responsibility.

1760 is not old, my great, great grandparents were allice at that time.

It's not modern.

Sure, but not as a Pastor or a Priest, but as a military General and as a Prophet. Prophets; were any "Priests"? Nope.

I never said she was a priest.
But people who oppose women priests often use 1 Tim 2:12 as a proof text. This verse is supposed to say that women cannot have authority over men; people say that God doesn't allow it.
But he called Deborah to do just that, she was judge over the whole country and sorted out disputes. And in fact it was the judges who kept people focused on God. Read Judges 2:16-19: while there was a judge, the nation worshipped God; when the judge died the nation turned away and worshipped idols.
Deborah may not have had the title of priest, but because of her leadership, the nation worshipped God and remembered the covenant.

 

[Strong in Him]

One - the appointment of circumcised men who were Jewish to office - was a necessity of history and nation. The other, the appointment of men and not of women, looks like a choice if one takes the circumstances of the first century AD and those of today as roughly the same; but they were not the same, so perhaps the choice of men alone was also a necessity of history and nation. In either case, men were chosen and that cannot be denied.

1. Jews were chosen too, and that cannot be denied - but like I said, Gentile men are always going to find an answer for that.
2. The 12 were all men, yes - but that doesn't prove that God doesn't, and can't, call women today.

This debate is about choices,

No, it's about calling.
I didn't choose to be a lay preacher. I had no intention of preaching and told God so. I chose to obey his call, but I didn't instigate it.

the Catholic Church argues from history and scripture as well as from sacred Tradition, that women are ineligible for choice as ordained priests or bishops,

Yes, the Catholic church says that, and they are free to choose to do that and tell any women that, no, they are not called to preach or be ordained.

But no one can, or should, tell God who he is allowed to choose to preach his Gospel, lead a local congregation in his church, teach the faith or anything else. It is God who saves, baptises in his Spirit, gives gifts, calls and brings people to new life. It is his calling, his Gospel, his church, his Kingdom - and his name and reputation at stake if his children mess up or are seen to be doing the wrong thing.
Several people in Scripture tried to tell God what to do - or told him why they couldn't do something that he had asked them to do.
They didn't get anywhere.

 

[Paidiske]

Several people in Scripture tried to tell God what to do - or told him why they couldn't do something that he had asked them to do.
They didn't get anywhere.

I remember when I was in the process of offering for ordination, talking to a nun who told me she thought I was very brave. "Not brave at all, sister," I told her. "I've thought long and hard about how big the fish in the other direction is!"

 

[Strong in Him]

I remember when I was in the process of offering for ordination, talking to a nun who told me she thought I was very brave. "Not brave at all, sister," I told her. "I've thought long and hard about how big the fish in the other direction is!"

I wasn't that keen on the thought of being a preacher.
But I didn't feel that saying 'no' to God was an option - particularly if I was then going to complain that he wouldn't tell me what he wanted me to do!