Ordination - an all male calling.

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,227
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,854.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
nope, it does not say that.
Well, yes it does. The fact that there's another intervening clause doesn't remove the fact that that's what that construction means.

Interestingly, in Greek the phrase is mias gunaikos andra - a one-woman man. While that doesn't literally even have to mean marriage, it was a common idiom for marital faithfulness, and as such, the meaning in context here is less about insisting on maleness, and more about insisting on fidelity and integrity.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Well, yes it does. The fact that there's another intervening clause doesn't remove the fact that that's what that construction means.
That's incorrect.
Interestingly, in Greek the phrase is mias gunaikos andra - a one-woman man. While that doesn't literally even have to mean marriage, it was a common idiom for marital faithfulness, and as such, the meaning in context here is less about insisting on maleness, and more about insisting on fidelity and integrity.
Verse one starts with males, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 1 Timothy 3:1 NASB" The rest of the passage is built on a man being a bishop and later a man being a deacon.

Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ.

Saint John Paul II does not argue from particular Greek words, even though such an argument is easily presented and is well supported in the scriptures, plus the example of Israel's priesthood points to the choice of men for the role and never a women. His argument is from Catholic Church history and practise, which is also present in all the ancient churches; the ordination of women to the priesthood and as bishops is a relatively modern innovation that is not a part of practise in any of the ancient churches.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,227
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,854.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That's incorrect.
How so? In terms of how to make sense of the phrase "husband of one wife," it is preceded by "must be."
Verse one starts with males, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 1 Timothy 3:1 NASB" The rest of the passage is built on a man being a bishop and later a man being a deacon.

Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ.
Ei tis is "if anyone." There is no word for "man" in the Greek there (that's an insertion into the English). It is not limited in meaning to males.

Other places in Scripture where the Greek ei tis is used include Matthew 16:24, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:17 (among many others). Nobody would argue that these Scriptures apply only to men; it is only the presupposition that it cannot apply to women in this passage of Timothy which sees it being interpreted that way here.
Saint John Paul II does not argue from particular Greek words... His argument is from Catholic Church history and practise,
Indeed. But given that my church has as one of its foundational belief statements that "the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith," that's not really going to be very convincing to me. Rome has been wrong on other things, there's no particular reason to refrain from considering that Rome might be wrong about this.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
But given that my church has as one of its foundational belief statements that "the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith," that's not really going to be very convincing to me.
No doubt that is so, and thus you dismiss saint John Paul II's letter; a befitting end for one whose foundations are laid in England far away from Rome.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,227
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,854.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No doubt that is so, and thus you dismiss saint John Paul II's letter; a befitting end for one whose foundations are laid in England far away from Rome.
I would argue that my foundations are laid in Christ, in my baptism, actually.

But in short, I find the Catholic position unconvincing (I'm really not interested in picking apart the letter in detail), and such a letter is simply irrelevant outside a Catholic context.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,930
700
72
Akron
✟72,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Christ willed to confer this sacrament on the twelve apostles, all of whom were men,
Of course they were men. Even today people still accuse Him when women are involved. Esp the women He hung around with were sinners.

Jesus Christ was known to associate with individuals who were considered social outcasts during his time, including prostitutes. He was often criticized for his willingness to interact with and show compassion towards those who were marginalized or considered sinners by society.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
There is a technical error in the OP, regardless of how one feels about having female priests and ministers, and that is in antiquity, there existed among Holy Orders one form of ordination specifically for women, that of the Deaconess, who was a minister of the font in the same manner the Deacon is a minister of the chalice. Specifically it was the role of the Deaconess to go down into the water with female energumens (people who had completed their catechumenate and were ready for Baptism, who in the Orthodox liturgies are prayed for with a separate liturgy during Holy Week, and then baptized during the Paschal Vigils, or Vesperal Divine Liturgy, on Holy Saturday, while the fourteen scripture lessons read in the Byzantine Rite, or the similiar set of twelve read in the Roman Rite pre-1955, when Pope Pius XII made changes I don’t understand or agree with, were read (indeed, my understanding is that in antiquity, even more Old Testament lessons, all of which tend to be proof-texts concerning the Crucifixion and Resurrection, would be read, depending on how many people needed to be baptized). This office was particularly important for the sake of propriety because baptismal gowns were not always worn in the early church, indeed I am not sure if they originally existed.

The ancient canons concerning the female Diaconate specifies that deaconesses were to be unmarried women or widows, aged at least forty, later raised to sixty, which is interesting anthropologically compared to the minimum age of presbyters, which was historically thirty, in that it suggests that the gap between the life expectency differential between men and women used to be larger.

My view is that at a minimum, all churches ought to have this office, particularly those that baptize infants via full immersion, as it would greatly help, particularly in the case of younger priests and also monastic priests who have no practical experience handling infants, who are delicate (fortunately Orthodox seminaries do provide training on this). Also given the increased scrutiny in which the church is operating, I, as a male presbyter, would prefer to have a female deaconess assist in this regard. I also would propose that presbyteras (the wives of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox priests) be trained in how to serve as deaconesses).

Furthermore, I really hope no one will dare to attack the credentials or legitimacy of the ministry of @Paidiske , since she is not a Roman Catholic and her priesthood does not pose any kind of threat to the Roman Catholic Church or its doctrinal integrity. Indeed it should be noted that in Anglican churches that follow the 39 articles, Ordination is not even regarded as a sacrament.

When I first joined the forum, there were a number of threads in which female clergy were attacked and people criticized @Paidiske and her vocation, and I really have to object to that. Recently, I have met a superb woman who is in her seventies who is ordained with the PCUSA and serves as a chaplain with the county Fire Department. Her ministry consists of assisting families where the Fire Department, which in Southern California and most of the Western US, is the first responder to medical emergencies, has just determined their loved one to be deceased and beyond their ability to help. In some cases this is because attempts at resuscitation have been unsuccessful, and in other cases it is because the loved one has been found deceased. This ministry would be challenging enough, but she also runs a homeless shelter and is assisting me with plans for a shelter for young men ejected from, and women who want to flee, the sinsister FLDS cult in Colorado Springs, AZ (previously they also controlled the city on the Utah side of Short Creek, but after Warren Jeffs was convicted in Texas of a horrible crime of paedophilia, the State of Utah seized all of their land).

This cult engages in two gross forms of human rights violations, aside from the historic paedophilia, which might well be continuing in secret, particularly when one considers that Warren Jeffs, although in prison, is still the leader of this perverse superstition. Firstly it compels young women to marry men who frequently already have wives, whether they want to or not, and secondly, it exiles young men often on grounds which are arbitrary and capricious from the community, and by young men, I mean teenage boys, leaving them in a position where they wind up homeless on the streets of St. George, Utah, where they are routinely taken advantage of by career criminals, who exist even there despite the very professional St. George Police Department. Law enforcement is very good in Washington County, but this is the place where, coincidentally, the 12 year old boy and his 10 year old sister being abused and denied food by his Mormon mother Ruby Franke and her friend and counselor Jodi Hildebrand were being kept, which is a huge distance from their home in the greater Salt Lake City area, and the 12 year old was able to affect an escape through the grace of God, and the police responded appropriately, and the two women are now in the county jail having been denied bond, and will probably spend the rest of their lives in the Utah state penitentiary system.

So my friend in the Presbyterian Church, who is an ordained chaplain with seminary training, has been able to provide me with invaluable advice in forming my plan, despite working full time as the owner of a real-estate entity whose raison d’etre is to support her charitable work, and which is itself a charity, helping the county with issues involving the property of people who die without relatives or intestate (without a will), in addition to her work as a chaplain for the fire department and her work running a homeless shelter.

So after meeting that woman, I am unsympathetic to attacks on the ministerial capabilities of women.

Now, I am not calling for the RCC to change its doctrine, because that would cause a schism, and there are very complex issues, but I feel this thread ought to have been posted in the OBOB forum as this issue is in my mind internal to the Roman Catholic Church. My position since joining the forum has always been to support female clergy and their ministries, while at the same time respecting religious freedom and also the need to avoid schisms in larger churches where a change in ordination policy would cause a schism. Most Protestant churches however were able to introduce female clergy uncontroversially, as far back as the 19th century. And there are valid arguments as to why the Pauline injunction does not apply.

For my own part however I would be extremely happy to attend a church where Paidiske was the vicar or rector, and what is more, iin the event that I buy the farm, to use an American expression, on my upcoming vacation in Australia Paidiske would be the person I would want handling my funeral if that is possible, since I believe she would be the one capable of providing the pastoral care required for my relatives. Also from an Anglican perspective, her doctrinal orthodoxy is robust.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
No doubt that is so, and thus you dismiss saint John Paul II's letter; a befitting end for one whose foundations are laid in England far away from Rome.

To be fair, though, Rome is only one of several ancient Patriarchates, and its authority in antiquity was limited to the Western Church. Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea guarantee autocephaly (full ecclesiastical self-governance, which in the Eastern Orthodox Church 16 canonical churches presently enjoy, since the Church of Northern Macedonia just became canonical following an agonizingly long controversy that unfortunately involved the imprisonment and mistreatment of the Serbian Orthodox Archbishop of Ohrid) to the churches of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem. Later, the autocephalous status of Constantinople was recognized, and also, de facto, of the Church of the East and the other churches presided over by men holding the office of Catholicos (Armenia, Georgia and probably Caucasian Iberia), as these had originally been autonomous (but not independent) churches under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Additionally, Cyprus has always been an autocephalous church, since as far back as ecclesiastical history records this issue coming into question, although it has never had the dignity of Patriarchate. Within Anglicanism, I am not sure if the Orthodox concept of an autonomous church which is not autocephalous, which is to say, fully self-governing, exists, but rather, there are different Anglican churches which can comprise multiple provinces, with the Church of England having two and the Episcopal Church having several, and in other cases, an Anglican church that is what the Orthodox would call autocephalous will call itself autocephalous.

It is unclear whether in antiquity the British church was under Roman jurisdiction before the loss of communications with it when the province was conquered by Barbarians, eventually falling to the Angles, at which time Pope St. Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to establish contact and ensure the orderly operation of that church and the conversion of the Angles. There is substantial reason to believe that the monasteries in Hibernia (Ireland) which had such an impact on Celtic Christianity were in some cases founded by Coptic hermits traveling from Egypt, as Hibernia was among the most remote destinations accessible from Egypt during late antiquity, and given that St. Anthony was followed by a vast crowd, to his annoyance, every time he sought to establish a hermitage, it certainly makes sense that other Desert Fathers would seek out a more remote location. It seems evident the ancient monastery of iona was founded for the same reasons.

Many Orthodox Christians believe that the British church was an Orthodox church only loosely connected to the Roman church during the period of Saxon Rule, and only became integrated with the British church following the Norman conquest, and there is some reason to believe this might have been the case, although frankly I don’t care either way, since in my opinion during the Patriarchate of St. Gregory the Great, when he sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to Rome, the Roman Church was as Orthodox as any Orthodox churches have ever been.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There is a technical error in the OP, regardless of how one feels about having female priests and ministers, and that is in antiquity, there existed among Holy Orders one form of ordination specifically for women, that of the Deaconess, who was a minister of the font in the same manner the Deacon is a minister of the chalice.
I believe this is speculative, based on allegedly feminine names used in association with "deacon". Not all speculations are false, nor are all of them true. The OP quotes from a document produced by the curia in Rome and that document is not regarded as infallible dogmatic truth.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So to summarize my view:

1. Whereas in the interests of avoiding schism and owing to the fact that the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church is theoretically immutable, and recent changes to it are in my view dubious, current Roman policies regarding the ordination of women are not something I would be prepared to dispute, and for this reason I really wish this thread had been posted in the Roman Catholic subforum.

2. The legitimacy of the ministry of women such as @Paidiske, my friend Kay, and others, is beyond reproach, and I am not prepared to tolerate criticism of their status as ministry.

3. Strictly speaking, any church which does not have deaconesses is in violation of the canon law of the early church. Additionally, since the early church changed the requirements for deaconesses at least once, they can be changed again. Some people argue that deaconesses were not ordained, but were rather made or consecrated, but this kind of semantic argument on the nature of their ministry is not compelling.

4. The Coptic and Armenian churches and at least one Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction have reintrodduced deaconessses for different reasons. In the case of the Coptic Orthodox church, it is related to the need for nuns who can serve as mothers to the large number of children living in church-run orphanages in Egypt, which exist because Islamic law, with its characteristic cruelty, forbids the adoption of children under any circumstances, so the operation of orphanages becomes an absolute necessity, which is a great tragedy, but one which can be minimized.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I believe this is speculative, based on allegedly feminine names used in association with "deacon". Not all speculations are false, nor are all of them true. The OP quotes from a document produced by the curia in Rome and that document is not regarded as infallible dogmatic truth.

Its not speculative. The canons concerning deaconesses are in the Pedalion, the Eastern Orthodox compendium of canon law, in the original Greek and in English, and indeed the editor of the Pedalion if I recall notes that these offices had fallen into abeyance. Do you want to see the specific canons?
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
So to summarize my view:

1. Whereas in the interests of avoiding schism and owing to the fact that the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church is theoretically immutable, and recent changes to it are in my view dubious, current Roman policies regarding the ordination of women are not something I would be prepared to dispute, and for this reason I really wish this thread had been posted in the Roman Catholic subforum.

2. The legitimacy of the ministry of women such as @Paidiske, my friend Kay, and others, is beyond reproach, and I am not prepared to tolerate criticism of their status as ministry.

3. Strictly speaking, any church which does not have deaconesses is in violation of the canon law of the early church. Additionally, since the early church changed the requirements for deaconesses at least once, they can be changed again. Some people argue that deaconesses were not ordained, but were rather made or consecrated, but this kind of semantic argument on the nature of their ministry is not compelling.

4. The Coptic and Armenian churches and at least one Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction have reintrodduced deaconessses for different reasons. In the case of the Coptic Orthodox church, it is related to the need for nuns who can serve as mothers to the large number of children living in church-run orphanages in Egypt, which exist because Islamic law, with its characteristic cruelty, forbids the adoption of children under any circumstances, so the operation of orphanages becomes an absolute necessity, which is a great tragedy, but one which can be minimized.
None of my posts suggests that any individuals in CF are exercising an illegitimate or non-canonical authority when they exercise the office of priest or bishop within a communion, such as the Anglican communion, which recognises female priests and bishops, because it is clearly the case that they exercise such roles within those communions by the express permission and acceptance of those communions.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Actually, here is the text of Canon XV of Chalcedon, with an interpretation by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, who compiled the ancient canons which continue to govern the Orthodox Churches, and which should still govern the Roman Catholic Church, since while canons were written which superseded earlier canons and therefore canon law cannot be described as an immutable part of Holy Tradition, unlike, for instance, the Nicene Creed, or the New Testament canon, there does not appear to be any basis for simply setting aside the ancient canons in their entirety, but the Roman Church has introduced a Code of Canon Law for not just the Western Church but also the Eastern Churches in communion with it. It is my belief however that the original canons are still in force, particularly those of the Ecumenical Councils, especially those of the first three, since the Oriental Orthodox churches also participated in those.

CANON XV
Let no woman be ordained a deaconess before the age of forty, and even then after a strict test. But if she, after receiving the gift of chirothesy and remaining for some time in the ministry, proceeds to give herself in marriage, thus insulting the grace of God, let any such actress be anathematized together with the man who has joined himself with her in marriage.
(Canon XIX of the 1st Ecumenical Synod; Canons XIV and XI of the 6th Ecumenical Synod; Canon XLIV of Basil.)

Interpretation
Owing to the ease with which women are deceived and the ease with which they are ruined, the present Canon commands that no woman shall be ordained a deaconess if she is less than forty years old. Yet even if she is forty years old, again, it forbids her to be ordained at random and perfunctorily; on the contrary, it requires the ordination to be performed only after a strict investigation of her life and past habits. In case, however, even after being thus ordained and serving as a deaconess for some time, she afterwards scorns the grace of God and marries, any such woman is to be anathematized together with the man who has married her. Armenopoulos, moreover, says (Book VI, Title III) that those who have induced deaconesses and nuns to become prostitutes are to have their noses cut off along with those of the women whom they have led into prostitution. See also the Interpretation of Canon XIX of the First Ecumenical Synod and the third Footnote thereto.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Actually, here is the text of Canon XV of Chalcedon, with an interpretation by St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, who compiled the ancient canons which continue to govern the Orthodox Churches, and which should still govern the Roman Catholic Church, since while canons were written which superseded earlier canons and therefore canon law cannot be described as an immutable part of Holy Tradition, unlike, for instance, the Nicene Creed, or the New Testament canon, there does not appear to be any basis for simply setting aside the ancient canons in their entirety, but the Roman Church has introduced a Code of Canon Law for not just the Western Church but also the Eastern Churches in communion with it. It is my belief however that the original canons are still in force, particularly those of the Ecumenical Councils, especially those of the first three, since the Oriental Orthodox churches also participated in those.

CANON XV
Let no woman be ordained a deaconess before the age of forty, and even then after a strict test. But if she, after receiving the gift of chirothesy and remaining for some time in the ministry, proceeds to give herself in marriage, thus insulting the grace of God, let any such actress be anathematized together with the man who has joined himself with her in marriage.
(Canon XIX of the 1st Ecumenical Synod; Canons XIV and XI of the 6th Ecumenical Synod; Canon XLIV of Basil.)

Interpretation
Owing to the ease with which women are deceived and the ease with which they are ruined, the present Canon commands that no woman shall be ordained a deaconess if she is less than forty years old. Yet even if she is forty years old, again, it forbids her to be ordained at random and perfunctorily; on the contrary, it requires the ordination to be performed only after a strict investigation of her life and past habits. In case, however, even after being thus ordained and serving as a deaconess for some time, she afterwards scorns the grace of God and marries, any such woman is to be anathematized together with the man who has married her. Armenopoulos, moreover, says (Book VI, Title III) that those who have induced deaconesses and nuns to become prostitutes are to have their noses cut off along with those of the women whom they have led into prostitution. See also the Interpretation of Canon XIX of the First Ecumenical Synod and the third Footnote thereto.
Canon XV as quoted in your post is read, within the Catholic Church, in the light of Saint John Paul II's letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and especially in the light of the concluding paragraph: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." I, as a faithful Catholic, take Saint John Paul II's words to heart and seek to be obedient to them, so I hold this view as definitive regarding the ordination of women to the priestly office.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Canon XV as quoted in your post is read, within the Catholic Church, in the light of Saint John Paul II's letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and especially in the light of the concluding paragraph: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." I, as a faithful Catholic, take Saint John Paul II's words to heart and seek to be obedient to them, so I hold this view as definitive regarding the ordination of women to the priestly office.

I am not talking about the ordination of women to the priestly office. I am talking about the ordination of women to the office of Deaconess, which is a completely different ministry that historically existed in the early church.

In the Roman church, where baptism is usually not via immersion, I don’t see it as a huge issue, but I really desire deaconesses in churches that are receiving large numbers of children via full immersion for reasons of safety, and indeed some Orthodox churches have reinstated them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I am not talking about the ordination of women to the priestly office. I am talking about the ordination of women to the office of Deaconess, which is a completely different ministry that historically existed in the early church.

In the Roman church, where baptism is usually not via immersion, I don’t see it as a huge issue, but I really desire deaconesses in churches that are receiving large numbers of children via full immersion for reasons of safety, and indeed some Orthodox churches have reinstated them.
Notice that Saint John Paul II did not explicitly exclude women from the diaconate.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Notice that Saint John Paul II did not explicitly exclude women from the diaconate.

I didn’t say he did. My point was that the early church had deaconesses, and you made a remark previously in which I thought you were claiming that you did not believe the early church had deaconesses.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,173
1,388
Perth
✟127,536.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I didn’t say he did. My point was that the early church had deaconesses, and you made a remark previously in which I thought you were claiming that you did not believe the early church had deaconesses.
My reference was to biblical passages where evidently feminine names were associated with the word deacon. I said that it is speculation to interpret those instances as proofs of the existence of deaconesses in the first century; it may or may not signify such.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,191
5,710
49
The Wild West
✟476,419.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
My reference was to biblical passages where evidently feminine names were associated with the word deacon. I said that it is speculation to interpret those instances as proofs of the existence of deaconesses in the first century; it may or may not signify such.

I wasn’t talking about those passages, I was referring to the canon law of the Early Church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums