Order without Intelligence

Psudopod · Jan 6, 2010

You don't have physical evidence though --- just software.

Of course we do. Weve got the physical evidence of the earth that shows no only no point in which a global flood occurs, but no point where it could occur. The geological record is full of ripples, tracks, raindrops, nests and burrows all of which would be destroyed by a cataclysmic global flood.

Then we have the artefacts and records of various cultures around the world at that time, non of which show any signs of either violent water damage, or the loss of all their civilians.

Not sure what you mean by software?

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Good --- then it gets down to the age of something (as opposed to something dated), and that, of course, falls back on God embedding age into His creation.

So, you agree. There are Chinese artifacts over 6,000 years old. What's the issue?

AV1611VET said:
How old is the metal in my car?

No idea.

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
I'll admit that the Bible only mentions Mizraim and does not make the Mizraim = Egypt connection.

Wikipedia does though, and so my Boolean Standards apply.

And besides --- long before Wikipedia, there's this thing called basic doctrine.

I though Wikipedia could take a hike. Or is that only when it doesn't agree with you? Is 'Boolean Standards' another phrase for 'dishonest?'

Regarding basic doctrine. I don't think you and I share doctrines, so that's moot.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

Psudopod said:
Then we have the artefacts and records of various cultures around the world at that time, non of which show any signs of either violent water damage, or the loss of all their civilians.

How do you know they are from that time period?

Psudopod said:
Not sure what you mean by software?

Writings, books, hieroglyphics, those sorts of things.

Psudopod · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-post53879220/#post53879220
Both cultures pre-exist the period Noah was supposed to live in. This would be around the middle period of ancient Eqyptian civiliation.
Let's go through this again.

I don't think so, in view of the fact that Egypt came from Noah's grandson (Mizraim), and the Chinese came from Noah's great-grandson (the Sinite).

Are you familiar with what we call the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)?

I know you dont think so, but its irrelevant what the bible says. The Egyptian and Chinese cultures are older that 6000 years. If you dispute that, youre going to need to show why every single artefact is misdated. Because if just one of them is correct, then you are wrong.

No, Im not personally familiar with the Table of Nations, enlighten me on it!

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

sandwiches said:
So, you agree. There are Chinese artifacts over 6,000 years old.

Absolutely.

sandwiches said:
What's the issue?

It gets back to a question I don't ever remember anyone answering:

If I built a church out of Zircon, how old would that church be?

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

sandwiches said:
Regarding basic doctrine. I don't think you and I share doctrines, so that's moot.

That's your opinion.

Psudopod · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-9/#post53879373
Then we have the artefacts and records of various cultures around the world at that time, non of which show any signs of either violent water damage, or the loss of all their civilians.
How do you know they are from that time period?

Because they’ve been dated to that period. Carbon dating is very reliable, when used properly and has been checked against other dating methods so we know that it is reliable.

Originally Posted by

Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-9/#post53879373
Not sure what you mean by software?
Writings, books, hieroglyphics, those sorts of things.

Okay, not a definition of software I’d use, given that these are tangible objects. Given that they are physical objects, not sure how you can claim it’s not physical evidence.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

Psudopod said:
The Egyptian and Chinese cultures are older that 6000 years.

That's the third time you've said this, and for the third time, I disagree.

(Like it matters anyway, eh?)

Psudopod said:
No, Im not personally familiar with the Table of Nations, enlighten me on it!

All you have to do is Google it: Table of Nations.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

Psudopod said:
Because they’ve been dated to that period. Carbon dating is very reliable, when used properly and has been checked against other dating methods so we know that it is reliable.

If I got a sheet of paper out and wrote my wife a note, and that paper was carbon-dated, how old would it say that note was?

Note: I've changed my example from 'the metal in my car' to 'a note to my wife' now.

Don't think I'm not noticing your reluctance to answer my questions.

I'm starting to grow tired of asking you guys two and three times for answers.

Psudopod · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-9/#post53879434
The Egyptian and Chinese cultures are older that 6000 years.
That's the third time you've said this, and for the third time, I disagree.

Well yes, but you haven’t given me any reason to change my mind. You haven’t shown me anything that says the Eqyptian and Chinese cultures arose after 6000 years (in fact after 4000 years), nor that they were descended from a single man.

Originally Posted by

Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-9/#post53879434
No, I’m not personally familiar with the Table of Nations, enlighten me on it!
All you have to do is Google it: Table of Nations.

Well, sure, but I was hoping you’d give me an over view. Learning from people is interesting. I’ll read the wiki article when I have a moment.

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Absolutely.It gets back to a question I don't ever remember anyone answering:

If I built a church out of Zircon, how old would that church be?

There are many different methods to identify the age of things. For instance, moisture content in clay, isotopic dating, carbon dioxide levels, strata, archaeomagnetic dating, obsidian hydration, thermoluminescence, dendrology, racemization, seriation, etc.

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
That's your opinion.

That's why I said it's moot. Since we don't share the same doctrine, trying to argue from it is merely an academic excercise without any epistemological value whatsoever.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

Psudopod said:
Well yes, but you havent given me any reason to change my mind.

I did my best --- if that's not good enough, then there's not much more I can do.

Psudopod said:
You havent shown me anything that says the Eqyptian and Chinese cultures arose after 6000 years (in fact after 4000 years), nor that they were descended from a single man.

That deserves a facepalm ---

Psudopod said:
Well, sure, but I was hoping youd give me an over view.

Here's your overview:

According to the Bible, the Egyptian civilization came from Noah's grandson, Mizraim; and the Chinese civilization came from Noah's great-grandson, the Sinite.

You don't have to read the whole Wikipedia article; just scroll down to Mizraim and read what it says.

It's only a couple of sentences.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

sandwiches said:
There are many different methods to identify the age of things. For instance, moisture content in clay, isotopic dating, carbon dioxide levels, strata, archaeomagnetic dating, obsidian hydration, thermoluminescence, dendrology, racemization, seriation, etc.

In other words, you don't know?

I need a dictionary to ascertain that you don't have a clue?

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
If I got a sheet of paper out and wrote my wife a note, and that paper was carbon-dated, how old would it say that note was?

Note: I've changed my example from 'the metal in my car' to 'a note to my wife' now.

Don't think I'm not noticing your reluctance to answer my questions.

I'm starting to grow tired of asking you guys two and three times for answers.

Relax. I'll answer your questions as best as I can. Dating documents can be tricky but there's a few methods. First off, the paper itself. If it's made from organic matter, like most paper is, we can C14 date it. We can examine the ink, writing style, including syntax and grammar. The language and words themselves are a clue. The content matter can lend more clues to its origin. Where it was found and what other things were found near it can also help. Et cetera. Can all this be duplicated or faked? Absolutely. I doubt you're claiming that all the artifacts we've found have been faked. That would put into question most historical documents including the dead sea scrolls and all biblical documents.

sandwiches · Jan 6, 2010

AV1611VET said:
In other words, you don't know?

I need a dictionary to ascertain that you don't have a clue?

So, what you're arguing is that because you don't understand what those methods are, they are unreliable? Hm. That's the usual argument from incredulity I expect from you guys.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

sandwiches said:
That's why I said it's moot. Since we don't share the same doctrine, trying to argue from it is merely an academic excercise without any epistemological value whatsoever.

That's what happens when raw science meets raw faith.

And about your 'epistemological value' remark --- I have to believe you never heard of the Table of Nations, and to have just gotten an education in basic doctrine, then to make this doosey of a statement says a lot about your attitude.

I have to wonder why you're even here on a Christian site, but that's none of my business.

AV1611VET · Jan 6, 2010

sandwiches said:
Relax. I'll answer your questions as best as I can. Dating documents can be tricky but there's a few methods.

Okay, I stopped here.

If you can't answer with a number, I'm finished.

You guys have a good day ---

Psudopod · Jan 6, 2010

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-post53879460/#post53879460
Because they’ve been dated to that period. Carbon dating is very reliable, when used properly and has been checked against other dating methods so we know that it is reliable.
If I got a sheet of paper out and wrote my wife a note, and that paper was carbon-dated, how old would it say that note was?

Note: I've changed my example from 'the metal in my car' to 'a note to my wife' now.

Don't think I'm not noticing your reluctance to answer my questions.

I'm starting to grow tired of asking you guys two and three times for answers.

Well, carbon dating doesn’t work well on things that are very young, so we probably wouldn’t get a good result from your note. If we were looking at a note your ancestor wrote a few hundred years ago, it would be dated to the age of the paper (more specifically, when what ever plant made the paper died). So if this was very old paper that he was writing on, we might not get an accurate picture. But we could look at what he wrote; maybe he mentions some event that we can use to get a better idea of when he is writing. Carbon dating isn’t the only tool archaeologists might use. It’s a good one, but it won’t give you a down to the day time-scale.

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Order without Intelligence

Godspeed, Spacebat

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Godspeed, Spacebat

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Godspeed, Spacebat

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Godspeed, Spacebat

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Godspeed, Spacebat

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