Order from Disorder

[Chris†opher Paul]

Ok, first, notice the "Question Mark" icon accompanying this thread. I am asking a question , so information, not snide remarks, would be most appreciated.

How does the evolutionist explain the ordering of our biological systems, given that we started from star dust, or slime, or from whatever we are supposed to have originated?

I know the theory states that natural selection asserts pressures on organisms to adapt, and over time, they change.

But it seems really wierd, since everything else we see in our Universe goes from a state of order to disorder.

This has probably been asked before, so sorry if it is old, I was just wondering, because it seems strange to me.

 

[Lacmeh]

Wearing huge blinders, one could aggree, that everything goes from order to disorder. But that is not an universal truth. There are little things, like energy states to consider.
With this order disorder theory, there must not be any elements except Hydrogen. Anything bigger than Hydrogen is more orderly, therefore not stable or feasable.
The earth is not a closed system. There are outside influences from magnetism to energy to meteors.
If you apply the theory as you interpret it, life in itself and any other state than gasous would be impossible. Or the theory is invalid. Since no one of the creationists discoounts the laws of thermodynamics and no creationist denies, that there is life on earth, there must be a serious flaw in their applying of the theory.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Or that God influences evolution? Thats another option.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, first, notice the "Question Mark" icon accompanying this thread. I am asking a question , so information, not snide remarks, would be most appreciated.

How does the evolutionist explain the ordering of our biological systems, given that we started from star dust, or slime, or from whatever we are supposed to have originated?

I know the theory states that natural selection asserts pressures on organisms to adapt, and over time, they change.

But it seems really wierd, since everything else we see in our Universe goes from a state of order to disorder.

This has probably been asked before, so sorry if it is old, I was just wondering, because it seems strange to me.

This should not be a mystery at all. You yourself started out as a single cell, right? Over time, that single cell took in raw (disordered) nutrients from the environment and constructed the highly ordered set of systems that is your body today. Your own body is a shining example of order coming from disorder.

If our own bodies can do it, then why should the origin of life itself be any less mysterious?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
This should not be a mystery at all. You yourself started out as a single cell, right? Over time, that single cell took in raw (disordered) nutrients from the environment and constructed the highly ordered set of systems that is your body today. Your own body is a shining example of order coming from disorder.

If our own bodies can do it, then why should the origin of life itself be any less mysterious?

Well actually, that is another thing I wondered about. We have coding to do this in the form of DNA, its a program. Where is the programmer?

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Or that God influences evolution? Thats another option.

I believe in this option. The universe was created to follow a natural direction one of them is evolution. Evolution simply means that our gentical structure simply adapts itself to your new environments. The environment may be internal (eg prayers) or external eg weather.

It is not right to dismiss evolution since if we claim we came from one man/woman then why are we different now. Why different races? This is evolution.

But evolution can't explain why we have different sexes and why they need to mate to reproduce. May be one day will get an explanation but it will not be in the way of evolution.

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Why do males have nipples?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Why do males have nipples?

It's obvious. At one time or another, all mammals were female, and this is a vestigal feature.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by npetreley
It's obvious. At one time or another, all mammals were female, and this is a vestigal feature.

But wouldnt it have been "selected away" from the males that dont use em?

 

[npetreley]

By the way, here is an AiG explanation:

No, the design explanation for male nipples makes more sense. But even if male nipples had no known use [sensual stimuli], there is another important reason why they exist in today’ s males. That is, they are the result of an efficient plan of embryonic development. Human embryos are sexually dimorphic at first (i.e. contain characteristics of both sexes), because they all have basically the same genetic information, and this information is expressed as efficiently as possible as the embryo develops. This is design economy. For example, in all human embryos, at first both the müllerian duct system (female) and the wolffian duct system (male) develop, because both sexes have the genetic information for these structures. Incidentally, this refutes the urban myth that human embryos ‘start off female’. The subsequent differences are the result of designed chemical signals that control the expression of the information. E.g., a gene set usually found on the Y chromosome controls the levels of testosterone and dihydroxytestosterone (DHT) secretion. Above a certain level, these hormones suppress the development of the müllerian duct system and promote the wolffian duct system, so the embryo takes on masculine characteristics. Below a certain hormone level, the opposite happens, and the embryo takes on female characteristics.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by s0uljah
But wouldnt it have been "selected away" from the males that dont use em?

Males DO use them. Body piercing.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by npetreley
Males DO use them. Body piercing.

Ah, good call.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

By the way, here is an AiG explanation:

No, the design explanation for male nipples makes more sense. But even if male nipples had no known use [sensual stimuli], there is another important reason why they exist in today’ s males. That is, they are the result of an efficient plan of embryonic development. Human embryos are sexually dimorphic at first (i.e. contain characteristics of both sexes), because they all have basically the same genetic information, and this information is expressed as efficiently as possible as the embryo develops. This is design economy. For example, in all human embryos, at first both the müllerian duct system (female) and the wolffian duct system (male) develop, because both sexes have the genetic information for these structures. Incidentally, this refutes the urban myth that human embryos ‘start off female’. The subsequent differences are the result of designed chemical signals that control the expression of the information. E.g., a gene set usually found on the Y chromosome controls the levels of testosterone and dihydroxytestosterone (DHT) secretion. Above a certain level, these hormones suppress the development of the müllerian duct system and promote the wolffian duct system, so the embryo takes on masculine characteristics. Below a certain hormone level, the opposite happens, and the embryo takes on female characteristics.

LOL! What a bunch of pseudo-scientific hand waving!

So God couldn't figure out how to create an "efficient plan of embryonic development" AND have nipple-less males? I didn't think God had to make trade-offs like that.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I didn't think God had to make trade-offs like that.

Me neither...I guess it doesnt really matter to Him.

 

[seebs]

All *closed systems* tend to entropy. The world we're on is not a closed system; it gets energy from the sun, and radiates energy to space, and variously arranges to be hotter in some places and colder in others... these are the sorts of things that allow a gradual buildup of order. Eventually, the theory goes, the sun will run out of hydrogen and destroy the planet; with any luck we'll have moved by then.

 

[npetreley]

Order from disorder IMO is not a good description of the problem because something can be static and ordered and not violate the 2LoT. Better, IMO, is "ongoing directed organization" from chaos. And that doesn't happen by itself. It needs an engine and programming.

People point to crystals and other "ordered" materials as violating the 2LoT. But that's not really the case. A crystal forms through the path of least resistance (it's the way the molecules fit together). It's not the result of an open system where a program directs energy which causes the pattern to emerge out of disorder. Therefore it says nothing about how molecules could organize and come up with a way to design a program that builds a cell wall.

In other words, show me a crystal that evolves into a crystal-radio and then we'll talk.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seebs
All *closed systems* tend to entropy. The world we're on is not a closed system; it gets energy from the sun, and radiates energy to space, and variously arranges to be hotter in some places and colder in others... these are the sorts of things that allow a gradual buildup of order. Eventually, the theory goes, the sun will run out of hydrogen and destroy the planet; with any luck we'll have moved by then.

Yeah. For example, the sun has been shining on my car for years and now it's an airplane.

 

[ocean]

Inanimate objects don't evolve! Only living things evolve.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by npetreley
Yeah. For example, the sun has been shining on my car for years and now it's an airplane.

Wow! Really?? I guess I won't park in the shade any more!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ocean
Inanimate objects don't evolve! Only living things evolve.

I guess you're saying that life could never have been started by natural causes, then, since by your assertion inanimate things could never have evolved to the point where they became alive.

Regardless, an open system is not enough to cancel the 2LoT. You need programming to direct the energy or else it just adds to the decay. That's why cars fade in the sun instead of becoming airplanes.