Ordained and Licensed?

[trentlogain]

What are the differences? How do Baptists do it?

 

[DeaconDean]

What are the differences? How do Baptists do it?

I can't speak for any other Baptist church but my own, but I can say that when I took the class "Contemporary Christian Preaching," the teacher said that I had a calling to do it and that I should ask my preacher and the church to license me to preach. He agreed that I had the calling and he and the church sectertary both signed my license.

Now I am an ordained Deacon. And the deacons saw the qualifications and calling on me, so I was asked if I would consider coming on the deacon board. I prayed for a week over that decision. After giving them my answwer, I was brought befoer the church and voted on by secret ballot. And one week later I was ordained. The Pastor annointed my head with oil, the deacons came forward and each one prayed over me, then at the end the Pastor and the Deacons all laid hands on me, and prayed over me. Then each member of the church came up and gave me the handshake of fellowship.

Least wise, that was my experience.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

I can't recall any instance in the Scriptures where a man was licenced to preach. When God calls a man to preach He gifts him for it and puts him to it. Though other men may recognize his gifts and calling he doesn't rely on men's approval or permission. If God has put him in it he doesn't seek the approval of men. Gal. 1:1,10,16 I am also not convinced that what is commonly practiced in ordination is Biblical either. I am in the process of studying that though so will not say one way or another as yet.

 

[DeaconDean]

I can't recall any instance in the Scriptures where a man was licenced to preach. When God calls a man to preach He gifts him for it and puts him to it. Though other men may recognize his gifts and calling he doesn't rely on men's approval or permission. If God has put him in it he doesn't seek the approval of men. Gal. 1:1,10,16 I am also not convinced that what is commonly practiced in ordination is Biblical either. I am in the process of studying that though so will not say one way or another as yet.

Oh I agree brother, but, when in Rome...

Unfortunately, here in North Carolina the Law requires one who preaches to be licensed, and I most obey the law.

As far as ordination goes, I've never sat in on one where a pastor was ordained, but I can tell of my experience and it was patterened after the discription given in Acts 6.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[trentlogain]

Oh I agree brother, but, when in Rome...

Unfortunately, here in North Carolina the Law requires one who preaches to be licensed, and I most obey the law.

As far as ordination goes, I've never sat in on one where a pastor was ordained, but I can tell of my experience and it was patterened after the discription given in Acts 6.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What kind of establishments in your area require the preacher to be licensed? We've been able to get in retirement centers and nursing homes without it. Actually, there's really only one place that we have an audience who sits and listens as we speak, and the nursing homes we just visit room to room.

 

[DeaconDean]

What kind of establishments in your area require the preacher to be licensed? We've been able to get in retirement centers and nursing homes without it. Actually, there's really only one place that we have an audience who sits and listens as we speak, and the nursing homes we just visit room to room.

You see, here in North Carolina, you may visit, you may minister to, but unless your asked specifically, you cannot go into nursing homes or hospitals and preach.

Believe me I know. I was Pastoral Care minister for my church at four area hospitals (Carolinas Medical Center, Presbyterian, Mercy, Gaston Memorial)for three years. And with all the changes going on regarding religion now, there is no preaching allowed in hospitals. Unless a person is on their death bed, close to dying, and your asked by a family member, then and only then can you witness (evangelize) to the person.

If you want to go around as an evangelist, (you know the type, tent revivals, church to church) you are still required by law to be licensed to preach.

Don't ask me why its that way, it just is. That is the law.

But like I said, being licensed to preach is a realitively easy thing to do. Talk to your Pastor and make sure he sees the calling and qualifications, and if he agrees, ask him to license you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[knowthyenemy]

Licensed - Can perform Weddings and Funerals (Cannot hold pastorship at a church)
Ordained - Can pastor a flock of sheep (Church) Cannot perform legal weddings

Also the Licensing at present moment allows for tax exemption in USA for ministers.

I think this is all correct...I may have it backwards...maybe not.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Oh I agree brother, but, when in Rome...

Unfortunately, here in North Carolina the Law requires one who preaches to be licensed, and I most obey the law.

The law requires what? That's disgusting. I remember stories of baptist preachers being jailed for preaching without liscense before the american revolution, but I thought the first amendment and all that was supposed to get rid of such ridiculous laws.

 

[DeaconDean]

Licensed - Can perform Weddings and Funerals (Cannot hold pastorship at a church)
Ordained - Can pastor a flock of sheep (Church) Cannot perform legal weddings

Also the Licensing at present moment allows for tax exemption in USA for ministers.

I think this is all correct...I may have it backwards...maybe not.

That is backwards.

In North Carolina, only ordain Ministers can perform marriages.

The law requires what? That's disgusting. I remember stories of baptist preachers being jailed for preaching without liscense before the american revolution, but I thought the first amendment and all that was supposed to get rid of such ridiculous laws.

No the First Amandment only allows you worship in any manner you see fit. And the state cannot step in and say the Baptist church is the only offically recognized church in this state and they cannot dictate how the church is to function.

But you still have to have a license to preach.

Like I said, don't ask me why, I just know thats the law and I had to get licensed myself.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[MrJim]

You see, here in North Carolina, you may visit, you may minister to, but unless your asked specifically, you cannot go into nursing homes or hospitals and preach.

Believe me I know. I was Pastoral Care minister for my church at four area hospitals (Carolinas Medical Center, Presbyterian, Mercy, Gaston Memorial)for three years. And with all the changes going on regarding religion now, there is no preaching allowed in hospitals. Unless a person is on their death bed, close to dying, and your asked by a family member, then and only then can you witness (evangelize) to the person.

If you want to go around as an evangelist, (you know the type, tent revivals, church to church) you are still required by law to be licensed to preach.

Don't ask me why its that way, it just is. That is the law.

But like I said, being licensed to preach is a realitively easy thing to do. Talk to your Pastor and make sure he sees the calling and qualifications, and if he agrees, ask him to license you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The license is issued by the government~which ever state you're in?~I would suppose each state has different laws about this; wonder which state is the more and the less strict on these things...I assume they have to be renewed every few years at some cost..

It is interesting to ponder that one has to get permission from the government to engage in this aspect of God's ministry~Epiphoskei raises interesting points..

 

[Epiphoskei]

One wonders when the apostles got their preaching licenses. Someone should warn them that preaching without license in the roman empire can get you killed.

...oh, wait...

 

[DeaconDean]

One wonders when the apostles got their preaching licenses. Someone should warn them that preaching without license in the roman empire can get you killed.

...oh, wait...

Why does this bother you so much?

Does not the Bible teach us to obey those who sit and rule over us?

Does not the Bible tell us that they are put there by God?

And does not the Bible tell us that we are to obey the laws of man as well?

Just wondering.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Epiphoskei]

In the secular world, sure. But to say that men may rule over the church, that God has established secular authority over the Church, and that we are to obey the laws of Men placed over the church... well, it's heresy. Whether it is right to obey God or men others may decide, but I will not stop preaching the Gospel of Christ.

I will die before I obey a man's edict telling me how I may and how I may not obey God.

 

[DeaconDean]

In the secular world, sure. But to say that men may rule over the church, that God has established secular authority over the Church, and that we are to obey the laws of Men placed over the church... well, it's heresy. Whether it is right to obey God or men others may decide, but I will not stop preaching the Gospel of Christ.

I will die before I obey a man's edict telling me how I may and how I may not obey God.

Well, you are entirely within your right to do so, but may I also point out who are pastors and bishops?

Are they not the "undersheperds"?

episkopoV - (episkopos-bishop - 1 Tim. 3:1) "an inspector, overseer, a watchman, guardian, in the NT, an ecclesiastical overseer"

poimenaV - (pastor - Eph. 4:11) "to feed, pasture, tend a flock, to feed with self indulgence, to pamper, to tend, direct, superintend, to rule"

Either way brother, we have to yeild to the authority of those both in the church, and those who make the laws we are to obey.

"They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." -Mt. 22:21 (KJV)

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
-Rom. 13:1-8 (KJV)

I guess we see it differently.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[MrJim]

Either way brother, we have to yeild to the authority of those both in the church, and those who make the laws we are to obey.

Acts 5:28 –Acts 5:32 KJV
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

At some point DD there'll be times where you have to choose, for as the render to Caesar post recognizes there will come times when the worlds clash.

I could better accept a case of denominational authority giving rules to follow much faster than secular ruling over ecclesiastical matters~wasn't this dealt with before in history?

"What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" ~Tertullian

Anyhow, as least for now we don't have to have a government-licensed bureaucratically-approved minister to baptize someone; any believer can baptize a convert before witnesses

 

[mlqurgw]

Dean, I have no problem with you following the law in NC and being licensed. In matters such as this we must follow our conscience. As long as the license doen't dictate what you can preach or how often. It violates no guideline of the Scriptures, in its present form, that I know of. My only concern is that churches are doing something that isn't Biblically based in the licensing of preachers, whether it is required by the govn't or not. Many Baptists that I know of do so.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Well, you are entirely within your right to do so, but may I also point out who are pastors and bishops?

Are they not the "undersheperds"?

episkopoV - (episkopos-bishop - 1 Tim. 3:1) "an inspector, overseer, a watchman, guardian, in the NT, an ecclesiastical overseer"

poimenaV - (pastor - Eph. 4:11) "to feed, pasture, tend a flock, to feed with self indulgence, to pamper, to tend, direct, superintend, to rule"

Either way brother, we have to yeild to the authority of those both in the church, and those who make the laws we are to obey.

Church and State officers are two rather different things. A prefect may say "do this" as a decree, an edict, and we do it, because they are God's instrument. An elder, however, is bound not to go beyond what is written. In either case, we do not go beyond righteousness into sin due to either man's edict. If the bishop's, he has no authority to make it. If the prefect's, we are still compelled to make it, regardless of his authority.

"They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." -Mt. 22:21 (KJV)

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
-Rom. 13:1-8 (KJV)

I guess we see it differently.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This isn't a matter of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. This is a matter of not rendering unto Caesar what is God's and not Caesar's. The civil government has not been given authority of any form over the church.

 

[DeaconDean]

This isn't a matter of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. This is a matter of not rendering unto Caesar what is God's and not Caesar's. The civil government has not been given authority of any form over the church.

You are still missing the pint here.

The state can and will make any law they desire. And in North Carolina, they want licensed preachers. This insures that at least they have been examined by the church to make sure they have the qualifications and calling that is required to insure we don't allow any more Jim Jones' coming to the general public.

The state mandates that only licensed and ordained ministers can perform marriages under the Law and yet you have no problem with that. So why is it a problem for you to accept that licensed preachers are a bad thing?

Now we are not talking about those individuals who (God Bless them) go door to door witnessing, or the man who is brave enough to go stand on the street corner and preach. We're talking about that person who goes from church to church, or holds those "tent revivals".

I would rather make sure that they have the qualifications, specifically, being God called and God given talents to perform such a job, than to just sit and listen to any old person stand up and preach.

Been there, done that, and heard some of the absolute worst exegesis in my life. Some had no clue as to what the scriptures were saying.

But hey, you have your opinion, I have mine, and unfortunately, the State of North Carolina says that men who preach, proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in a church, or at a tent revival, must be licensed.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Caesar says you have to be licensed, render to him his due.

"For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." -Rom. 13:7 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Epiphoskei]

The point is that God simply has not given the State any authority over the Church. None. This is not Caesar's business, it is God's and God's alone. You do not submit to the Government with regards church business under any circumstances. It's not caesar's due. It's God's alone.

The state can and will make any law it wants. And when it makes a sinful law, you break it.

 

[DeaconDean]

The point is that God simply has not given the State any authority over the Church. None. This is not Caesar's business, it is God's and God's alone. You do not submit to the Government with regards church business under any circumstances. It's not caesar's due. It's God's alone.

The state can and will make any law it wants. And when it makes a sinful law, you break it.

Again, you are missing the point.

However, this is getting us nowhere.

You have your POV.

I have mine.

How many more Jim Jones' are there out there simply because no church has actually looked to see if the person claiming to be a preacher has not been examined and has the calling and God given talents to perform such a task?

And this isn't a matter of the state stepping in and telling a church how to conduct its services.

Your missing the point completely.

God Bless

Till all are one.