Opposition to Vaccination

[Kylie]

There are many people who are opposed to vaccination. Some say that it doesn't work, others say that it causes harm*, or autism.

If you are against vaccination, what evidence do you have to support your position?

* By this, I mean greater harm than is typical for a medical procedure. I know there is a very small chance of harm arising from receiving a vaccine, and that's not what I'm talking about here.

 

[Sabertooth]

We are not anti-vaxx, just selective.

One modern version (rubella) has injured some of my children. We have gotten the rest with no problems. The chickenpox vaccine has the same flaw,* but mine all got actual chickenpox before it came out.

*Well-researched details at Children of God for Life

 

[Kylie]

We are not anti-vaxx, just selective.

One modern version (rubella) has injured some of my children. We have gotten the rest with no problems. The chickenpox vaccine has the same flaw,* but mine all got actual chickenpox before it came out.

*Well-researched details at Children of God for Life

Is there a specific article which details this flaw you speak of?

ETA: And now you've removed your post...

 

[Radagast]

There are many people who are opposed to vaccination. Some say that it doesn't work, others say that it causes harm, or autism.

Well, vaccinations certainly don't cause autism.

But what makes it difficult is that they can cause harm. Once in a while somebody can get a side-effect from a vaccination.

The thing that people struggle to get their head around is that the risk of a side-effect is much, much less than the risk of the disease that the vaccination protects you from. And that's partly because people really suck at risk analysis, and partly because we've forgotten so much of the past.

We've forgotten, for example, that many children who caught polio, even if they didn't die, never walked properly again. Did you ever read this as a child?

 

[Kylie]

Well, vaccinations certainly don't cause autism.

But what makes it difficult is that they can cause harm. Once in a while somebody can get a side-effect from a vaccination.

The thing that people struggle to get their head around is that the risk of a side-effect is much, much less than the risk of disease that the vaccination protects you from. And that's partly because people really suck at risk analysis, and partly because we've forgotten so much of the past.

We've forgotten, for example, that many children who caught polio, even if they didn't die, never walked properly again. Did you ever read this as a child?

Yes, vaccines can cause harm, but then again, so can getting out of the bath.

This website has details of the adverse effects of various vaccines and how often they occur. The most common reactions are swelling and tenderness. Serious side effects are extremely rare for all vaccines. Comparisons of the effects of diseases and the side effects of vaccines

 

[Radagast]

Yes, vaccines can cause harm, but then again, so can getting out of the bath.

Yeah, that was exactly my point.

It's like swimming at the beach can result in you being eaten by a shark -- but the risk of that happening is less than the risk of being killed by a lightning strike.

Sadly, people suck at risk analysis.

 

[Sabertooth]

Is there a specific article which details this flaw you speak of?

De Novo Mutations - Vaccine Contaminants - Autism Genes

My only caveat is that I think that some are born with a predisposition to said mutation. The risk for neuro-diverse people is considerably higher (but neuro-diversity is not officially acknowledged, yet).

Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

 

[Radagast]

De Novo Mutations - Vaccine Contaminants - Autism Genes

I'm seeing a bunch of non-peer-reviewed "junk science" there.

 

[Kylie]

De Novo Mutations - Vaccine Contaminants - Autism Genes

My only caveat is that I think that some are born with a predisposition to said mutation. The risk for neuro-diverse people is considerably higher (but neuro-diversity is not officially acknowledged, yet).

Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

What evidence is there that DNA from the cells used in production of the vaccine can be found in the vaccine itself?

 

[Sabertooth]

What evidence is there that DNA from the cells used in production of the vaccine can be found in the vaccine itself?

IIUC, yes, at residual levels.

Even if you don't like that particular theory, the unprecedented increase in ASD2s & 3s (not ASD1s) demands a resolution. Until its equivalents of Pasteur & Lister et al. resolve this issue, we are left with Semmelweis.

Can Semmelweis tell us to "wash our hands," now, or must we wait for the former to confirm it?

 

[Junia]

Well, vaccinations certainly don't cause autism.

But what makes it difficult is that they can cause harm. Once in a while somebody can get a side-effect from a vaccination.

The thing that people struggle to get their head around is that the risk of a side-effect is much, much less than the risk of the disease that the vaccination protects you from. And that's partly because people really suck at risk analysis, and partly because we've forgotten so much of the past.

We've forgotten, for example, that many children who caught polio, even if they didn't die, never walked properly again. Did you ever read this as a child?

I remembe that book! great book

 

[Junia]

I am not anti-vax but i believe one should have a choice. no parent should be forced to vacinate their child. they should be told what is in the vaccine, possible risks, then allowd to make their choice

 

[Junia]

Yes, vaccines can cause harm, but then again, so can getting out of the bath.

This website has details of the adverse effects of various vaccines and how often they occur. The most common reactions are swelling and tenderness. Serious side effects are extremely rare for all vaccines. Comparisons of the effects of diseases and the side effects of vaccines

I am off to google how often people are hurt or killed in accidents occurring when they just lying in their own beds at nights, i remember someone saying once people have a higher chance of that happening than anything like dying in a plane crash

 

[Radagast]

i remember someone saying once people have a higher chance of that happening than anything like dying in a plane crash

The most dangerous aspects of air travel are (1) driving to the airport, and (2) eating a meal.

AFAIK, the last air travel accident deaths in the US were in 2013 (7 people died). But more than 5,000 people in the US choke to death on their food every year.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I am not anti-vax but i believe one should have a choice. no parent should be forced to vacinate their child. they should be told what is in the vaccine, possible risks, then allowd to make their choice

It's a tricky ethical issue. Different cultures and legal systems take different approaches. Here (UK) parents are considered to be guardians of their children and, as such, have a legal duty of care - which means that they have a legal responsibility to protect them. So there are legal requirements for the use of child car seats, vaccinations, etc. These are also seen as protecting society in general by reducing the indirect burden of injury or death - and in the case of vaccination, there is the protective effect of herd immunity.

 

[Sabertooth]

Here (UK) parents are considered to be guardians of their children and, as such, have a legal duty of care - which means that they have a legal responsibility to protect them.

Doesn't protection include knowing that their child is prone to a bad response to particular ingredients and medications, like antibiotics?

 

[Sabertooth]

What evidence is there that DNA from the cells used in production of the vaccine can be found in the vaccine itself?

For me* only this, when offered a vaccine that has been cultured in chicken eggs, the nurse asks outright, "Are you allergic to chicken eggs?"

That tells me, right there, that the culture medium has enough impact to warrant consideration.

*The article in question was written by medical professionals, not me. I don't know why I must defend their report.

See also Man's blood and sperm found to contain only donor's DNA after bone marrow transplant

 

[Radagast]

*The article in question was written by medical professionals, not me. I don't know why I must defend their report.

See also Man's blood and sperm found to contain only donor's DNA after bone marrow transplant

That's totally different. The whole point of bone marrow transplants is to replace the patient's own (usually cancerous) blood-producing tissue by someone else's living and growing cells.

Are you seriously suggesting that this is relevant to vaccines in some way?

 

[Radagast]

in the case of vaccination, there is the protective effect of herd immunity.

There is a certain ethical obligation on society as a whole to (via herd immunity) protect children who can't be vaccinated, like those that are still too young, or those undergoing cancer treatment.

Far too many tiny babies die of whooping cough because someone else didn't vaccinate their child.

For that reason, some governments are starting to impose restrictions on anti-vaxxers having contact with other people. For example, some child care centres have a "no jab, no play" rule.

 

[Sabertooth]

That's totally different. The whole point of bone marrow transplants is to replace the patient's own (usually cancerous) blood-producing tissue by someone else's.

It shows this layman that human donor DNA can alter recipient DNA. (Again, this in no way constitutes a defense for the rationale of actual medical professionals. If you question that, ask them.)