Opposition to Vaccination

[Sabertooth]

Please don't use strawmen, okay?

"Seatbelts" are the "straw man" in a thread about vaccines.
Seatbelts are simple/mechanical.
Vaccines are chemical/complex.

 

[TLSITD]

I am not anti-vax but i believe one should have a choice. no parent should be forced to vacinate their child. they should be told what is in the vaccine, possible risks, then allowd to make their choice

Random thought:

If a woman is allowed to murder her unborn baby even up to birth, and people approve of her doing what she wants with her child's body in that case, why do so many of the same people look on mothers who choose not to vaccinate their children out of concern for their health (even if their fears are scientifically unwarranted for the most part) with such contempt---as though they are the scum of the earth? At least the anti-vaxxers love their children and aren't intentionally doing them harm. Shouldn't the women intentionally murdering their babies be viewed with greater contempt?

I can't take seriously anyone who despises anti-vaxxers but is "pro-choice". They have cognitive dissonance.

 

[Radagast]

At least the anti-vaxxers love their children and aren't intentionally doing them harm

But they are unintentionally doing them harm.

 

[Sabertooth]

How many different #2- type vaccines have your children had reactions to?

I answered that earlier. My children have only been exposed to the rubella x2. The SCPI article says that the chickenpox vaccine has the same problem.

The shingles vaccine is only for those older than 50 and is not routine.

The list at https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/vaccineListOrigFormat.pdf includes other vaccines, but none of them are routine.

 

[Junia]

Random thought:

If a woman is allowed to murder her unborn baby even up to birth, and people approve of her doing what she wants with her child's body in that case, why do so many of the same people look on mothers who choose not to vaccinate their children out of concern for their health (even if their fears are scientifically unwarranted for the most part) with such contempt---as though they are the scum of the earth? At least the anti-vaxxers love their children and aren't intentionally doing them harm. Shouldn't the women intentionally murdering their babies be viewed with greater contempt?

I can't take seriously anyone who despises anti-vaxxers but is "pro-choice". They have cognitive dissonance.

yeah it is wrong to judge on subjects such as vaccines because that kind of judging is not Biblical. i think there should be tolerance either way. we have bodily autonomy- parents have right to refuse even if we dont neccessarily agree. i am pro vax generally (except for covid one but that different) but if someone wants to not vaccinate their child it is none of my business.

if someone is neglecting or abusing their child then it is our business to get involved. but vaccines are a perosnal thing, like whether to breastfeed or not, homeshool or not etc

 

[Sabertooth]

Further, the current #2-version of the rubella went into use in 1979. ASD2 & 3 levels (not ASD1) were unremarkable prior to that.

2014-CA DDS Autism Cases By Birth Year
​

I got my rubella vax prior to that date, when it was cultured in either MDCK or duck eggs, and had no measurably bad reaction to it.

 

[TLSITD]

But they are unintentionally doing them harm.

Maybe so in some cases. But abortion kills children virtually 100% of the time (and that in a horrible way), and it's done with the intent of killing the child. If concern for the harm of children was really the source of the contempt that pro-choice people feel toward parents who don't vaccinate their kids, how can they also support the premeditated murder of millions of helpless babies by their mothers?

 

[coffee4u]

I think these days the issue is often more about how many are on the list rather than pro or con vaccines.

I am pro vaccines, but the list for vaccines was much smaller when my kids were tiny. Someone told me once how many are on the US schedule and it seems way over the top. I would be very hesitant about that many vaccines. The program core should be the most needed and other things should be optional.

Vaccines do not cause autism-as a mother of a child with autism. If you ask most parents on an ASD board 96-98% will agree with me. I have seen the question pop-up and the poster tends to be chased around for suggesting it. A lot of children with autism regress at 12-18 months, vaccine or no vaccine. I've seen people with 2-3 children on the spectrum with no vaccines. There is a genetic component, it does run in families. Most anti-vaxers on ASD boards are anti-vax for other reasons. Only 1-2% are on the ASD-vaccine bandwagon.

Do vaccines cause harm? They have done. There are people who had a bad reaction but this is rare. The diseases themselves have much higher risks than the vaccines only peoples memories forget or they never saw little kids with polio or encephalitis and they fool themselves thinking something like measles is as harmless as a cold.
What worries me is if people stop getting their children vaccinated against Diptheria or polio that this endangers the children who can't be vaccinated due to certain allergies or past reactions. Unlike smallpox these things have not been irradicated. If children who could safely be vaccinated are not vaccinated herd immunity will go down and these diseases will make a come back.

 

[Sabertooth]

@coffee4u , I am an ASD1 father of ASD2 & 3 children. I agree that vaccines do not cause autism, but see Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

 

[Radagast]

how can they also support the premeditated murder of millions of helpless babies by their mothers?

I'm not "pro-choice."

And what you're doing is called "whataboutism."

 

[Radagast]

Someone told me once how many are on the US schedule and it seems way over the top.

We are fortunate to live in Australia, where vaccines don't get added to the list without a good reason.

The diseases themselves have much higher risks than the vaccines only peoples memories forget or they never saw little kids with polio or encephalitis and they fool themselves thinking something like measles is as harmless as a cold.

Yeah, I was making that point too.

Unlike smallpox these things have not been irradicated. If children who could safely be vaccinated are not vaccinated herd immunity will go down and these diseases will make a come back.

Indeed, and we are starting to see measles outbreaks in low-vaccination areas.

 

[Kylie]

"Seatbelts" are the "straw man" in a thread about vaccines.
Seatbelts are simple/mechanical.
Vaccines are chemical/complex.

You don't seem to understand.

I was talking about seatbelts. You then pretended I was talking about faulty child seats. Thus, you used a strawman argument, since you were misrepresenting my argument to make it easier for you to dismiss.

In any case, both vaccines and seatbelts are things which generally do a lot of good although in very rare cases they can cause harm. But for neither of them does the risk of harm outway the benefits they offer.

So again, I'll ask you to stop with the strawman arguments, okay?

 

[Sabertooth]

In any case, both vaccines and seatbelts are things which generally do a lot of good although in very rare cases they can cause harm.

Seatbelts are simple/mechanical.
Vaccines are chemical/complex.

So again, I'll ask you to stop with the strawman arguments, okay?

Check.

 

[sesquiterpene]

I am pro vaccines, but the list for vaccines was much smaller when my kids were tiny. Someone told me once how many are on the US schedule and it seems way over the top. I would be very hesitant about that many vaccines. The program core should be the most needed and other things should be optional.
.

How many vaccines on the US schedule are unnecessary, and why? There doesn't seem to be any cumulative ill effects of vaccine uptake, despite antivaxx propaganda to the contrary.

The only major difference I see between US and Australian schedules is the omission of chickenpox in Australia. As my 92-year-old mother has been suffering from severe shingles for the past two months (the latest shingles vaccine was unavailable here until the beginning of the year), I am very much in favor of earlier vaccination. Chickenpox doesn't seem to have any animal vectors, so eradication of this virus is possible - although complicated by long term persistence of the virus afer infection.

 

[SelfSim]

The shingles vaccine is free in Australia for those over 70 years of age.

 

[coffee4u]

How many vaccines on the US schedule are unnecessary, and why? There doesn't seem to be any cumulative ill effects of vaccine uptake, despite antivaxx propaganda to the contrary.

The only major difference I see between US and Australian schedules is the omission of chickenpox in Australia. As my 92-year-old mother has been suffering from severe shingles for the past two months (the latest shingles vaccine was unavailable here until the beginning of the year), I am very much in favor of earlier vaccination. Chickenpox doesn't seem to have any animal vectors, so eradication of this virus is possible - although complicated by long term persistence of the virus afer infection.

Chickenpox vaccine has been available here for a long time, both my kids got that one. Before I had kids a friends son at 7 got shingles (extremely young for that) and it was near his eye and had to be watched closely to be sure it didn't get into his eye. After seeing that and how horrible Shingles was I made sure to pay for the Chickenpox vax for my kids when it wasn't on the schedule. Wasn't cheap I remember that much. Husband wasn't keen but after we had a local outbreak and with my friend's son in mind I wanted it.

I have not checked it in some years, but when mine were babies we had polio, whopping cough, diphtheria at 2-4-6-12 months (I think) then Measles/Mumps/Rubella at about 15 months. Maybe the Australian schedule is as heavy as the US one now, I don't know. I only heard the US one had even more. But I would not want that many, not unless our lifestyle, family health or area warranted it.

 

[Radagast]

I only heard the US one had even more.

I think that the most recent addition to the Oz list was the Meningococcal vaccine. We spent many years "ring vaccinating" in places where outbreaks occurred, and that failed to put a stop to deaths, so we put Meningococcal vaccine on the list in 2003.

The main difference between our list and the US that I can see seems to be that Influenza and Hepatitis A are only on our list for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children and other high-risk groups.

 

[trunks2k]

After seeing that and how horrible Shingles was I made sure to pay for the Chickenpox vax for my kids when it wasn't on the schedule. Wasn't cheap I remember that much.

Heck, I had an outbreak of shingles once in my early 30s, right after my daughter was born. I had a pretty mild case and that was really, really painful. I'm making sure my kids are vaccinated against chickenpox.

I may have had two other very, very mild outbreaks. They seem to be stress induced. The first two from having newborns, the other from all this lockdown stuff.

 

[Radagast]

I'm making sure my kids are vaccinated against chickenpox.

Good move.

I may have had two other very, very mild outbreaks. They seem to be stress induced. The first two from having newborns, the other from all this lockdown stuff.

That's the problem with having the chickenpox/shingles bug inside you. The best that your immune system can manage is a ceasefire, and that breaks down with either time or stress.

 

[Tom 1]

scrambled

Pun?