Open Theism

[sola fide]

Hello Ernie,

I agree with all the statements you said above. God Himself is omniscient. He knows everything, all the possible outcomes to all the choices we make. He knows the number of hairs on our head. He is an awesome God who allows us to have free will. From the book God of the Possible by Greg Boyd, when talking about the world-wide flood with Noah, he says, "Now, if everything about world history were exhaustively settled and known by God as such before he created the world, God would have known with absolute certainty that humans would come to this wicked state, at just this time, before he created them. But, how, then could he authentically regret having made humankind? Doesn't the fact that God regretted the way things turned out--to the point of starting over--suggest that it wasn't a foregone conclusion at the time God created human beings that they would fall into this state of wickedness (God of the Possible, p. 55)?" I am going to expand on that statement. Why would God regret making humankind? If you regret doing something, that means you wish you never did that thing, it turned out worse than expected. I know I sometimes regret going to college away from home, because some things have turned out worse than I was hoping, I had horrible roommates last year. That is the exact thing that happened to God, He wished He never created humankind, and it turned out worse than expected. All God wants is a relationship with humankind, and it was not happening like that.

I think Open Theism is clear in the Bible, look at the Israelite nation in the Old Testament. How many times did God have to tell them to do something? God had in mind that the Israelite nation would be in the promisedland in a short time. But, we all know what happens, they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. This is because people went their own way and didn't do what God wanted to do. God wanted them in the promisedland, if God knew that, why would He make 10 spies deny going into the land and 2 approve going into the land? To me at least, it doesn't make sense, the only clear choice is open theism. God knows every possibility that will happen after a choice we make.

Anyways, I have a Bible paper to write on Luke 13:10-17, hoping someday I will be healed from God of my disability, it is a possibility! God bless you all!

servant4ever

1. Does the term anthropomorphism ring a bell? The Scriptures occasionally have to speak of God in simple human terms, terms that we understand because we are simple humans.
The Scriptures at times speak of the Father as having hands, arms, even wings. That doesn't mean that He is a man like us, the writers are using these terms to illustrate their specific points. I think the text about God being sorry that He made man could easilly fall into that category.

For example, in Gen. 6, where a statement such as that is made it says...
"it grieved Him to His heart..."
Does God, who is Spirit, have a heart?
As the Spirit inspires the words of Moses, He gives Him the event in human terms.

Next, it should also be pointed out that the entire event of the flood was for one purpose. To point forward to Christ, the Messiah, the Redeemer.
God worked sovereignly through history, through a man and his family, through water and an ark to show all future generations that they need a covering to protect them from the flood of God's wrath.
God did not make a mistake in creating man, a perfect being cannot make a mistake, or in allowing them to fall- now we not only know God as Creator, but as Redeemer.

It is not that God regretted what He did, that is not what Moses is trying to tell us, he's using anthropomorphism to show us that God hates sin and that He will not tolerate it. But also that He has provided us with an ark of salvation.

2. You stated that God wanted the Jews to immediately enter the promised land but they thwarted His will by being disobedient.
I strongly disagree with that idea. Remember No one can "stay the hand of God." His dominion is an everlasting dominion...That means that His control cannot be hindered or put to an end. (Dan. 4).

So did God want the Israelites in the land and they thwarted Him?
Dan. 4:25- "...the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom He will."

Read Daniel 4, it's very instructive. How about this-
Daniel 4:24-25- "...It is the decree of the Most Hight, which has come upon my lord the king, that you shall be driven from among men..."

Was this a possibility that God saw, or did He decree it and cause it to happen? He decreed it. It was not a possibility, it would surely happen.

How about the very event that you site with the children of Israel? In Deut. 34 did God see the possibility that Moses would die before reaching the promised land, or did it happen by Divine providence? It was providence, it was foretold in chapter 32.

Is it possible that the children of Israel had been too corrupted from there days in Egypt for God to allow them to enter the land? He Himself led them by the pillar and cloud. He led there steps. It was all of providence.
He decreed that the children of the original generation should enter the land.
The Most High rules the kindgom of men and chose not to give the promised land to the Israelites immeditately.

Acts 17:25- "...He Himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything."

see also Job 12:10- "In His hand is the life of everything and the breath of all mankind."
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, the very life of a man are in the hands of the almighty, as was the life of Moses. Moses' death was not a possibility but a sure decree of the Almighty.

Job 12:25- "He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the earth and makes them wander in a pathless waste. v. 26- They grope in the dark without light and he makes them stagger like a drunken man.

Notice it doesn't say He knows the possibilty that people can go astray it says He causes them to wander.
This is what He did with the children of Israel.

Next,
Acts 17:26- "And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having deermined allotted periods and the boundaries for their dwelling place."

God actually chose and caused all people to be where they are.

Job 14:5- "Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with You, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass."

God chose to have the children of Israel wander, He chose the boundaries of the land they would dwell in, all things happened by His decree, not by chance or possibility.

open theology is a natural outgrowth of the teachings of evolutionists. Things happen by chance, by random occurance. Yet the God of the Scriptures is a sovereign God. A God who's hand cannot be stayed, who's will cannot be thwarted. History is His-story. He has used and will continue to use time and history as the theatre of His great plan of redemption, which He decreed before the foundation of the world.

I hate to drop verses on a subject such as this, but I simply ask that you would pray about the things that you believe, read the Scriptures diligently, and ask God to reveal His whole truth to you. If after that you still hold to the position that you do, may God bless you and be gracious to you.

Grace and peace.

J

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Servent4ever,

He knows all the possibilities that will ever happen.

Herein lies the problem. I don't know if you caught it in one of my prior posts, but you did not respond to it. Please consider:

THERE IS ONLY ONE COURSE OF ACTION THAT GOD SEES, AND THAT IS THE "ACTION TAKEN". God DOES NOT look at all the possible courses of action that may result from one particular course of action. This FALSE doctrine is attributing to God, what the actions of men are. We do not know the future as God does, so we must select carefully from several options and hope and believe that the option we take is the correct one. GOD IS NOT LIKE THAT. I repeat - He knows the end from the beginning. You continue to add the words "he knows all the possible outcomes". NO! In His sight, there is ONLY ONE outcome, and THAT IS THE ONE TAKEN!

Sorry, I am not interested in your web site. I have debated other "open theists", and have visited some web sites, so I am not at all interested in going through that again.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[servant4ever]

Ernie,

How do you know that God only sees one action? God's ultimate plan for creation was to have a perfect relationship with the humans He created. How can that one action, considerring that we sinned, and therefore at first we don't have a relationship. I ask you look at the website, I have looked at predestination websites before, and I was not interested in looking at the website, but I did in courtesy of Dan. I think it is good to make sure we understand where both people are coming from, and to know their argument. The Bible does show that God is open to everything, to me it makes sense, but obviously to you it doesn't. That's fine, God still loves all people and all that matters is if people call on the name of Jesus Christ, and they will be saved. I do have to admit, though I am not an expert theologian, I have only been an open theist for the last 3-4 months, so I don't know all the answers to the opposing verses to Open Theism, but I just glance at the Bible and it is clear to me that God is open and He can change what He wants, He knows all the possibilities, just not the direct action.

Well, I have a meeting with my Bible professor about my paper, have a blessed afternoon,

servant4ever

 

[Deamiter]

2. You stated that God wanted the Jews to immediately enter the promised land but they thwarted His will by being disobedient.
I strongly disagree with that idea. Remember No one can "stay the hand of God." His dominion is an everlasting dominion...That means that His control cannot be hindered or put to an end. (Dan. 4).

I agree with much of what you say, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I was just wondering if you could clarify this point.

How do you explain 2 Kings 20:5 where, after hearing a prayer, God adds fifteen years to Hezekiah's life. It perhaps is a great testemony to the power of prayer, but even though I believe in God's foreknowledge, I have a hard time reconciling this change in what God foreknew. I suppose that you could go and say it wasn't meant to be literal, but in a passage like this, I don't think that theory holds water. It is very clear that the writer believed that God did in fact change his mind.

Also, in Jonah, Jonah preaches to the people of Ninevah and they change their ways. Then in 3:10, "When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do {it.}" (NAS)

It seems that either the Bible must be wrong, or at the least deceived (not God, because you might claim that the author of these passages only THOUGHT that God changed his mind) or God does indeed change His mind.

Again, don't take it personally. I am honestly wondering (as a physics major with perhaps less biblical study than some) how this fits into a God who knows 100% what the future holds.

 

[rnmomof7]

How do you explain 2 Kings 20:5 where, after hearing a prayer, God adds fifteen years to Hezekiah's life. It perhaps is a great testemony to the power of prayer, but even though I believe in God's foreknowledge, I have a hard time reconciling this change in what God foreknew. I suppose that you could go and say it wasn't meant to be literal, but in a passage like this, I don't think that theory holds water. It is very clear that the writer believed that God did in fact change his min

Do you believe a God that is omniscient would not have known of that prayer?
The only prayer that God responds to is that prayer that is in His will.

It is my belief that Hezekiah's prayer was willed and ordained of God .

Remember the child born during that 15 years was named in the lineage of Jesus .

 

[Crazy Liz]

Greetings Servent4ever,

Here are the omni-qualities of God:

Omniscience - ALL knowing
Omnipresent - In Him and through Him all things consist and have their being
Omnipotence - ALL powerful
Eternal - Without beginning and without end, forever One God.

With all due respect, the idea these "omni-qualities" are absolute comes from Greek philosophy (Plato and Aristotle), not from the Bible. The OT contains many more instances of God changing God's mind, regretting, etc. than it does of the kind of omniscience you are talking about.

Another characteristic of God that is held by classical theism, as a corrollary of the "omni-qualites" you listed is that God is impassible - experiences no emotions, unfeeling. Since emotions change from time to time and God does not change, God could not possibly experience feelings or emotions. Yet the Bible is full of refernces to God's feelings and emotions.

The God of classical theism is not a personal God. The God of the Bible is.

If any of us have differences in understanding, we should be like the Bereans and check out what the scriptures say.

I agree.

 

[cleaveun2him]

How do you explain 2 Kings 20:5 where, after hearing a prayer, God adds fifteen years to Hezekiah's life. It perhaps is a great testemony to the power of prayer, but even though I believe in God's foreknowledge, I have a hard time reconciling this change in what God foreknew. I suppose that you could go and say it wasn't meant to be literal, but in a passage like this, I don't think that theory holds water. It is very clear that the writer believed that God did in fact change his mind.

Also, in Jonah, Jonah preaches to the people of Ninevah and they change their ways. Then in 3:10, "When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do {it.}" (NAS)

It seems that either the Bible must be wrong, or at the least deceived (not God, because you might claim that the author of these passages only THOUGHT that God changed his mind) or God does indeed change His mind.


In both of these cases God forknew the eventual outcome. This is expecially true in the case of the Ninevites...why elase whould he go to the trouble of sending the most effective person to warn them of the coming judgement...was Jonah the only prophet in Israel at that time...No!...But God wanted to show his grace to the Ninivites by sending a warnings....a warning that He knew they would heed, thus He could show His grace to them...

This is also true in the case of Hezekiah...Hezekiah had been told that his days were numbered...He repented and sought God's favor and grace and was given a boon of an extra 15 years through God's grace...God knew that Hezekiah would eventually repent, yet this does not deimish His grace.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Servant4ever & Crazy Liz,

I suggest you go and spend some time at the web site that Dan suggested. I did visit the Open Theism web site and it contains misleading statements, inuendo and obfuscation with no discernible scriptural support. Boyd even makes statements that declare the Bible to be in error. Speculation and questioning God seems to be the order of the day.

I have already mentioned that often when God speaks to us He speaks in anthropomorphic terminology, that is "language that we can understand" because:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Since you are relatively new to this concept, I suggest you look first at the "orthodox" perception as found at Dan's suggested web site AND OTHERS, before you are so brain washed, you have lost all sight of the truth.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Crazy Liz]

Ernie, are you unwilling to discuss the specifics of open theism vs. classical theism? It seems like all your posts have an arrogant, condescending attitiude in which you condemn open theism simply by stating that it is incompatible with classical theism, implying or stating that classical theism is correct and open theism is evil. For example, I don't know why you assume I'm "relatively new to this concept" and in danger of being brainwashed.

You have posted about half a dozen times in this thread, but have not actually engaged in discussion at all. If you're not interested in discussing the topic, why do you keep posting in this thread?

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Ernie,

The fact is, I used to be strong-Calvinist. After I realized that WE DO have free will, I changed to be more in the middle, then I come to realize that if we do have free will, which it looks like to me, since I am free to say what I am right now, then God can only know the possibilities, since we can go our own way, which Adam and Eve did. So, I do know all the arguments for all 3 sides! In your response, rnmomof7, if God ordained to tell a lie, then make a person pray, then add life, that goes against the Bible. Hebrews 6:18 says "in which it is impossible for God to lie (NIV)" and Titus 1:2 says "God, who does not lie (NIV)". God did not lie to get someone to do something. He had to change His mind, if He knew that He was going to add 15 years to the life, then He would be lying when He said He was going to be dead in short time because the person had to prepare their house. In reference to saying that God does not have a heart, that is true, but He has emotions. His emotions shows that He grieved that He made mankind. Our emotions don't come from our literal heart, same with God.

It is clear that Jesus believed in an open future. He even prayed that God the Father would change His mind about Him dying for humankind. If you are in question about this, look at Matthew 26:39. If Jesus knew that God the Father couldn't change His mind, then why did Jesus ask for the Father to change His mind since Jesus was the word of God.

The classical view of God shows that God DOES NOT want all people to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 states that He wants all people to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 states that God does not want any to perish. How can God not wany any to perish if He selects people to become Christians? How could He want all to be saved if He if selects people to punishment efore the foundation of the world? This does not make sense, and God has to be open to the future because we have free will.

I have to get off, I have to be at work in a few minutes, hope you can think of this for a few hours,

Have a blessed afternoon,

servant4ever

 

[Deamiter]

cleaveun2him - it seems like you're saying that God can be deceptive. God knows exactly how long Hezekiah will live - and yet He allows Hezekiah to believe that as the result of prayer, his life was lengthened. Either God did in fact change his mind - or force Hezekiah to live another 15 years as a gift, or Hezekiah's life was always going to be the same length, and God just made it SEEM as if his life was lengthened.

Same with Jonah. God relented and did not bring down destruction as he had earlier declared that he would. God had made up his mind, but he wanted to see what would happen if the Ninevites were preached to. They turned aroun 180 degrees so he did not do what he said he would do. Not that God doesn't keep promises -this wasn't a promise.

It seems like you're saying that God can pretend to change His mind, while he knew what would happen all along. Honestly, I DO believe more like you than servant, but I spend most of my time hammering out arguements on Young Earth/Old Earth (though I avoid Evolution like the plague). I'm more wondering how you WOULD answer these questions - though I do wonder...

 

[Dan1824]

Servant,

I took a look at the website you recommended. How dreadful.

Anyway, when you started this thread you said:

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will.

I'd like to know what leads you to think that free will and foreknowledge are conflicting. Why is it that you think that God cannot foreknow each individual choice that is made by His creation?

That I can freely choose to do this or that does not necessitate that God does not know what I will choose.

Actually such an idea makes "free choice" sovereign, as by "free choice" we have the power to elude God's ability to know the actual end of all things.

You say that "since I am free to say what I am right now, then God can only know the possibilities". Why can God only know the possibilities?

By the way, Calvinists do not deny free will. We affirm, as say the confessions:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter IX / 1689 London Baptist Confession, Chapter IX.


Of Free Will
I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Dan,

I will consult Greg Boyd's book God of the Possible. He has the answer in better words than I can place it in. Boyd points out a hypothetical situation that could happen. If one day, tomorrow let's say, a book is dropped out of heaven, from God, named God's Book of Known Facts. You see every single moment in your life unfold before you. And you see that you will cheat on your taxes next year (the illustration from the book is dated, I changed 2003 to next year). You are frightened. You know that the snapshots of your future can not change. But, you know you can't change your free actions. (God of the Possible, p. 121-122) Does that make sense? It does not. If you knew your future actions before you did them, then it is not free will because you are only doing what God would know, which would mean that it is not free. You are only following what we known, you are not making choices, you are just following the path. God must know all the possibilities, but not the exact choice we will make because it is not free will, it is only going down the path that was selected, which means that God would have to predestine people, and people that are loved by God will not have a chance at everlasting life. It has to be either total free will, or God's total control of people. There is no human free will with the foreknowledge of God. It is clear that we do have free will, since we all make choices on our own, choices to even join this message board, if God foreknew this event, then it would have to be predestined. If predestination was true, then why would God change His mind? Why would He regret making humankind? At least to me, this does not equal up.

Have a blessed evening,

servant4ever

 

[Dan1824]

Servant,

First, your scenario does not disprove foreknowledge. Our choices can be free and at the same time foreknown by God.

In your scenario the created being is enabled to know his future. This is a big "if", seeing that "the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever." (Deut 29:29).

In your scenario, it would be true that there would be no free will. However, as the details of our future are hidden from us, to us, we are inabled to act freely without the knowledge of the hidden will of God.



It seems that either you are unaware, or you deny the existance of secondary causes.

Secondary cause:

From: http://reformerkev.esmartweb.com/bcf19.html

There are within the plan of God those areas that God effects by His own immediate agency, without the aid or input of his creation, such as creation and regeneration. Although God has planned all, there are other areas of the plan of God that God brings about by secondary causes, that is by the actions of his creation rather than He himself, though He has rendered them certain.

All things that we choose to do, we do freely of our own volitions. However, that does not mean that we are acting outside of the will of God. God allows us to act freely, and this allowance is volitional on His part.

As reads the confessions:

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. WCF, LBC1689 III:1.

Why would He regret making humankind?

Genesis 6:6 was written in an anthropopathic form. God did not one day "decide" that making man was a mistake. This passage shows that God eternally has no pleasure in the wickedness of fallen man.

 

[servant4ever]

This is going to be a short post, for I have a lot of homework due tomorrow,

What I was trying to say, I was at work, supervisor walked around the corner, I had to finish it fast, is that even though we can't see the book, God can. If God can see that book, we do not have a free will because if God can see that book, then every "free" action will have to go according to the pictures in place. It is like a baby book. When you first get a baby, imagine you receive a book of pictures of the baby's life. The pictures will show what the baby will do all through their life, which in fact means that the baby will be doing what the book says, which is predestining someone. The baby does not see the book at all, but the parents do. The parents will know what happens, which means that they know the path, and thus no free will. I know this is a bad example, I was just thinking of that on the top of my head, but it proves it. If God has all the pictures of our life in a book, it is not free will because it is placed before us and we are just going down that same path. Free will requires that we make decisions.

You keep up bringing Genesis 6:6. God has feelings. He gave us a smaller version of the feelings He has. Since we have feelings, same with God, God can regret making humankind. Just as parents can regret "making " their child when the child is having a bad day, so can God, us, the children of God, was going in the wrong direction, we were having one of those cry-all-day-and-never-be-happy day's, just as a baby has. God did regret making humankind.

I keep on bringing up Jesus asking the cup to be taken from Him, and I have not received any feedback. Jesus asked for the cup to be taken. Why would Jesus ask the Father for the cup to be taken from Him if He knew God the Father did not change His mind, and He had a direct path? Jesus knew God has an open future, so should we. He changes His mind. He wants all to become saved. He loves us all. He has never and will not place people in hell on His choosing, it is us that puts us there, by rejecting God. He wants a relationship with all humankind, not just the "elect." You may bring up the verses that say that the elect this, the elect that. What the Bible is referring to when it says the elect is the people that have decided to follow Jesus. The elect are the Christians. The elect are not predestined people. This post ended up longer than I thought, sorry.

servant4ever

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Servant,

Why would Jesus ask the Father for the cup to be taken from Him if He knew God the Father did not change His mind, and He had a direct path?

Now, this is a "twisted" question. You pulled it OUT OF CONTEXT to make your point, but you are really MISSING the point because Jesus continued on "Yet not my will but thine be done." and sure enough God's will was done. Jesus was crying out from His fleshly body, He even PRAYED TO THE FATHER in His fleshly body. As I have said before: God sees the ONLY one option before you, and that is the one TAKEN. Again I reiterate, God sees the end from the beginning. Think on that.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[servant4ever]

Ernie,

God does have a path He wants you to take, I do agree with that, which Jesus took the perfect path. But, since we are humans, and God is open to the future because we have free will, we go astray from that perfect path God wants. That is how you can explain the "I have the plans for you" passages. God knows all the different choices we can make, but He has one He wants us to choose, which is perfection, like Jesus did. We decide to go on the other choices, because of our flesh. I am going to get back to this question, why did Jesus ask for the Father to change His mind? Do you think He knew that God could change His mind? If He knew the Father couldn't change His mind, then why ask? But, Jesus set for the Father's perfect will, which is why He went to the cross -- Jesus could have decided to go a different path, but he stayed on the perfect will of the Father.

And I go back to 2 Kings 20. Why did God change His mind with Hezekiah? You could say He had it in plan to change His mind, but then God would be lying. If He comes in and says that you are going to be gone after a week, or whatever, then after you prayed, God says, ok, I add 15 years to your life, I knew you would do that, God would be lying. Hebrews 6:18 and Titus 1:2 states that God cannot, even it is impossible for Him to lie. I am asking you just to consider that this is a possibility for God. There have been people since the 5th century that have believed in this, not coined the term "open theism," but they have believed in a God that has possibilities open. (God of the Possible, p. 114-118) And I guarantee you that the first Christians believed this also.

To me at least, predestination and foreknowledge don't go with the Bible,

servant4ever

 

[Crazy Liz]

To me at least, predestination and foreknowledge don't go with the Bible,

servant4ever

Servant, you hurt your own case with extreme statements like this. The Bible does teach both predestination and foreknowledge, but not as absolutely as Ernie states. The Bible also teaches that God is personal, having emotions and even changing God's mind on occasion. Open theism is not like process theism, which holds God has no knowledge of the future. It is also, as I understand it, less like Molinism ("middle knowledge") than you say Boyd describes it. God knows way more than we know. God knows everything that can be known. It is not inappropriate to use the word "omniscience" to describe God's knowledge, which is so far above and beyond our own.

God can also intervene in human history whenever God chooses to bring about God's desired ends, but most of the time, God allows acts of human freedom - and even the randomness of the natural world, IMO - to have their natural consequences. To use a drama as a metaphor, God has not pre-scripted all of human history, but has given the outline of the plot and allowed the actors to improvise within that outline.

 

[servant4ever]

Hello,

I just want to say that exact foreknowledge of the future is not correct with the Bible. God knows all the possibilites that us humans can do. He knows the exact hour Jesus will come back, because that is when He wants the earth to end. I just want everyone to see what I am trying to say: If God predestines people to become Christians and people not to be Christians, then He is not love, because He wants all people to be saved, and He does not want any to perish, and that, at least to me, looks like a lie. If then God does not predestine us to heaven or hell, then God must not know the exact future, just all the possibilites, because God originally created this earth for a paradise, perfect harmony with humans, until we went our own way, which means that God knew the possibility, but not the exact way that humankind was going to go. It is by God's precious grace that we are saved, but we have to choose God. God cannot exactly know the future, especially if He changes His mind. He knows all the different possibilities, but He is allowing us to choose the path we are going. Adam and Eve chose the path they wanted, and thus God had to ban us from the Garden and access to the tree of life.

You may be asking me then "Why can't we have free will and God knowing what we will choose before hand?" Let's go with Crazy Liz's example of theater. If God gives us the script, we have to do what it says because it was written before hand. But, just as Crazy Liz said, we are improvising what God wants, which is a relationship with humankind. He wants to have a relationship with every human alive, but that is not possible because we all have chosen to go away at first. If God knows everything to the exact second beforehand, then it is not free will because we are just doing what the book says, which is not free will because we cannot change anything that the book already knows. Which means we have to have a free will and God to know the possibilities, not one exact path.

I hope this clears everything up,

servant4ever

 

[Dan1824]

Servant,

Listen to yourself. You are not making logical sense. Just because God knows that you are going to choose to do something does not mean that you are not volitionally choosing it.

Yes, God has predestined your choice, in that He has allowed you to freely make that choice, but the choice and the responsibility for the choice is your own.

You can think that predestination and free will are at odds all you want, that doesn't make it true nor logical.


Also,

God originally created this earth for a paradise, perfect harmony with humans, until we went our own way, which means that God knew the possibility, but not the exact way that humankind was going to go.

This does not square at all with what the Bible teaches.

Ephesians 1:4-7 teaches that prior to the foundation of the world, God predestined His people to adoption as sons. Hence, prior to the foundation of the world He knew that man would fall, and He ordained that His chosen would receive adoption, by redemption through His blood.

Had He not known that Adam would fall, then there would have been no need of God predestining a people to be adopted and redeemed by the blood of Christ (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world).